CoS/tPoD timeline

[herid]

I'm a bit confused about CoS/tPoD timeline. All the online timelines I've seen (like this one or this one) put Sammael's death (CoS, Ch 41) after the Bowl of the Winds is used (tPoD, Ch5). Does anyone know why that is? I don't see any obvious time markers. The reason I'm asking is that in tPoD prologue Moridin thinks while playing tcheran that only nine people living still know the game. At this time Moridin knows of the following Forsaken that are still alive:

Moridin, Demandred, Aran'gar, Osan'gar, Moggy, Graendal, Cyndane (Moridin strokes her mindtrap in that scene), Semirhage and Mesaana. That's nine. With Sammael that makes 10. Moridin has a later POV spying on the girls leaving for the Kin farm so the prologue scene happens before that. So when exactly did Sammael die in the Ebou Dar timeline?

[LemonPastie]

could he be discounting himself as a forsaken, now that he is Nae'blis?

[herid]

could he be discounting himself as a forsaken, now that he is Nae'blis?

I don't think he would but it's not relevant to the question. He is not counting the Forsaken. He is counting people who knew how to play tcheran. He would certainly count himself in that number.

[UncleButcher1980]

Have you read the WOTFAQ section on this? A bit of info there.

[herid]

Have you read the WOTFAQ section on this? A bit of info there.

Thanks a lot! I missed that. It does answer my question and gives a nice explanation of why we know that Sammael died after the Bowl was used. I would have never figured that out myself as it's pretty convoluted.

It looks to me like RJ just miscounted when writing the Moridin scene in the tPoD prologue.

[UncleButcher1980]

Totally understandable if he did, I've always found the time lines insanely hard to follow sometimes, although that's partly what I love about the books. Hats off to whoever figured that one out.

[yoniy0]

Do we have any reason for thinking the prologue scene came before the one where he sees the girls leave Ebou Dar? It might just be the other way around (unless I'm mistaken, Elayne seemed to have the same thing happen to her in ToM).

[herid]

Do we have any reason for thinking the prologue scene came before the one where he sees the girls leave Ebou Dar? It might just be the other way around (unless I'm mistaken, Elayne seemed to have the same thing happen to her in ToM).

We have a Moridin POV in the prologue and another one in CH 2 watching the girls leave for the Kin farm. AFAIK, there are no POVs for the same character not following in chronological order. That would really be too strange.

[yoniy0]

AFAIK, there are no POVs for the same character not following in chronological order. That would really be too strange.

Is it really any different if a character is seen and heard from in another's PoV prior to his/her PoV appearing in the books covering events which outdates said appearance? I don't think so. If you'll take a look at a tentative ToM chronology, Elayne has plenty of PoV's which chronologically predate her appearance in ToM14 (either in day 819 or 805, depending on the version you choose to believe in). It's true that the uncertainty is considerable, but there are so many different incidents that I feel confident her subsequent PoV's in the book actually took place earlier in Randtime.

[herid]

AFAIK, there are no POVs for the same character not following in chronological order. That would really be too strange.

Is it really any different if a character is seen and heard from in another's PoV prior to his/her PoV appearing in the books covering events which outdates said appearance? I don't think so. If you'll take a look at a tentative ToM chronology, Elayne has plenty of PoV's which chronologically predate her appearance in ToM14 (either in day 819 or 805, depending on the version you choose to believe in). It's true that the uncertainty is considerable, but there are so many different incidents that I feel confident her subsequent PoV's in the book actually took place earlier in Randtime.

Every person's POV (including Elayne's) is chronological in ToM and tGS. Yes, there are examples such as you mention but they were we only introduced by BS in tGS and ToM because of the necessity of splitting the book in three volumes. There are no such examples at all in the earlier books. I see no reason to believe that RJ would sneak something like this into tPoD and using POV of the same person too to make things worse. There was no reason to do it in tPoD and every reason not to as it would only confuse the reader. I'm sure that's not what is going on here.

[yoniy0]

There was no reason to do it in tPoD and every reason not to

That's where you lose me. Ever since RJ started splitting plot lines over multiple books the timelines didn't match up completely. The decision to have the supergirls use the Bowl of Winds in TPoD rather than ACoS was most likely a compromise. That plotline's leftovers from ACoS, but it didn't fit in it. The piece about Moridin and the Fisher, however, is classic prologue material; it wouldn't fit nearly as well anywhere else.

And in actuality, you're not quite right that it hasn't happened before. Indeed, Moridin's own PoV from TPoD2 chronologically predates his appearance in ACoS41 as the Wanderer (where he is not only seen, but conversed with).

[herid]

There was no reason to do it in tPoD and every reason not to

 

And in actuality, you're not quite right that it hasn't happened before. Indeed, Moridin's own PoV from TPoD2 chronologically predates his appearance in ACoS41 as the Wanderer (where he is not only seen, but conversed with).

good catch! I have to eat my words on this one. still, abandoning chronological order for the same person POV is a really bad idea as it makes it very difficult to follow what's going on. we don't have any examples of that in the series and I would think that none would be introduced without a very very good reason. there is none to be found here. All RJ had to do to keep things nice and chronological was change 9 to 10 in tPoD prologue. I find it impossible to believe that instead of doing that he'd choose to abandon chronological order in Moridin POVs.

[yoniy0]

You may have me there, making it ten rather than nine would be simpler (though he ought to know that Rand's remembering stuff as well, by then). Someone should ask Maria that (@WoTLuckers, are you reading this?).

 

For me, though, it's just as bad the other way. Having Elayne be told all of that and then reading her PoV and wondering why (for the love of the Light!) she doesn't hang that foul Duhara from her heels was very taxing. Not to mention trying to figure out where Gawyn's visit fit in with the rest of her plotline (and Mat's)... Ugh, my head's starting to ach again.

[mb]

This site is generally accurate on the exact date of events::

http://www.stevenac.net/wot/wotchron.htm

 

For up through Knife of Dreams, most dates are certain. Gathering Storm, those dates are not yet finalized.