Cadsuane

[RobertAlexWillis]

There must be another way to reach him

 

Please, enlighten us then? You complain at the solution, but offer no alternative.

 

Cadsuane could very well be more intelligent than Rand, hell at her age i'd think that she'd have to be senile not to be. And thats the kicker, shes that old ,that wise,and that knowledgeable, and her best tactic is ridicule and assault, i take that back there is no way shes smarter than Rand, she's not even smarter than Bela.

 

How do you know it isn't working? Just because you wouldn't enjoy it?

 

If she is so damned experienced then why does she still use the tactics that she does? And the ONLY reason Rand trusts her is because MIN, said he was going to learn something from her, something important. He certainly didnt start out trusting her from any of her own actions. I think that if Min had said anything different than what she did that Rand would have sent her away, and not permitted her to be anywhere near him, yes that speaks volumes for his trust of Cadsuane.

 

You are correct that his initial impulse to trust her came from Min's viewing. But that trust has been solidified by her own actions since. Cadsuane has been an effective aid to him, enabling him to cleanse saidin, getting him out of jail in Far Madding, keeping him alive and uncaptured after Fain's attack in Cairhien and against Semirhage's deception. How is she abusive? Because she tells him the truth, including when she disagrees? Or is it because she smacked him a couple of times? Physcial contact is often the only method of reaching the emotionally detached. And she certainly hasn't HARMED him, physically, any more than women punching me in the arm and chest for being an arrogant smart-aleck harms me. Actually, it usually makes me laugh. Unless they hurt their hand .... then I have to apologize for being punched.

[Luckers]

Don't bother Robert. The man is a fool, and looking for a fight. Let him believe as he chooses.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yeah, I know, its hasn't passed being fun for me yet though ... I'm sure it will soon.

[Wise One]

Cadsuane isnt there to make sure Rand does the right thing with the Shadow, she's there to save him from himself. Where does she get the experience? A lifetime of dealing with male channelers, which presumably gave her experience of how to get them to be more human again, as evidenced by the high suvival rate among her captives who are gentled.

 

She's certainly not black, and she might be condescending and annoying, but she does it because she must.

[Diamondmask]

Cadsuane must have absolutely award winning roses by now then.

 

Rand got his hand burnt off because he was afraid to embrace the OP - it makes him so ill - like all the others did before riding to meet The Daughter of the Nine Moons who turned out to be Semirhage. But I think he is hanging in there quite well, considering.

[Jorik Alarin]

 

Please, enlighten us then? You complain at the solution, but offer no alternative.

 

As i am not RJ, i cant possibly offer another solution in the book. But in the "real" world, i would say how about talking to him? How about asking him how hes doing? How about trying to communicate with him on an equal level, as opposed to one of condescending arrogance? How about acting like a "councilor", he can trust not to make him feel stupid, even when he does make mistakes? Wow! thats break through untested crazy talk there.

 

 

How do you know it isn't working? Just because you wouldn't enjoy it?

 

Hmmmm, how could i possibly know that her tactics aren't working....could it be because he isn't getting any better, in fact he appears to be getting worse? She's had what 4 books since she stated her mission? Thats my proof her methods are not working. Maybe....just maybe, RJ will have Rand reach an Epiphany with Cadsuanes help, i don't see it, but who knows with Deus Ex Machina.

 

As for your personal insults, well, i'll continue to show examples with facts from the texts, you continue to hurl venom at me.

 

Edit: Grammar

[Guest cwestervelt]

Just because she isn't acting like a sycophant doens't make Cadsuane arrogant and condescending to Rand. She has been communicating with Rand in the only manner that he understands now. So what if she isn't telling him what he wants to hear. She is telling him what he needs to hear which is vastly more important. That sounds very much like a councilor you can trust if you ask me. Maybe a little embarrassment when he is being an idiot will get him to start thinking about what he does and says.

 

You say she should try talking to him. Try to communicate with him on an equal level. Do you honestly expect that to work? He doesn't consider anyone to be on equal footing with him, just as tools to be used. That is what Nynaeve and Min have been trying with no success.

 

You say she hasn't had any success in 4 books? How very wrong that is. When they met, it was the first time in several books that he saw someone as a person and not just another tool and the only reason was because Cadsuane acted aloof. Previously, the only person he would take advice from was Moiraine and then just barely. Now, in a matter of a few months, she has gotten to a position were Rand actually listens to what she has to say. That is quite an accomplishment.

[racha_giurgiu]

This forum sure is nasty.

 

But in all reality I don't understand how else one would handle an ego-maniac like Rand al'Thor the bloody Dragon Reborn. He has pushed everyone away and refused to tolerate anyone nearby. The fact that Cads has broken through that is proof enough that he does, in fact, need to be treated like an obnoxious child. You don't counsel a brat. You put him or her in his/her place and that is precisely what Rand needs. If getting him to see the world as more than a game of Chess takes a slap or spanking or good boxing of ears, than so be it! Nothing else apparently gets through to him.

[Jorik Alarin]

Just because she isn't acting like a sycophant doens't make Cadsuane arrogant and condescending to Rand.

 

Where' date=' where do you all seem to get the idea that because i want her to treat Rand as an equal that i must mean http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=sycophant? I have no where stated that she must be servile, i have no where stated that she must be a lap dog, do you really associate common courtesy and respectful adresses as Sycophantic?

 

As to her arrogance i don't need to say it, her actions in the book say it well enough.

"The door opened again for Riallin. "An Aes Sedai has come to see the [i']Car'a'carn[/i]." She managed to sound cold and uncertain at the same time. "Her name is Cadsuane Melaidhrin." A strikingly handsome woman swept in right behind her, iron-gray hair gathered in a bun atop her head and decorated with dangling gold ornaments, and it seemed everything happened at once." ACoS pg. 415

 

Her VERY first entrance is one of puffed up self importance. She enters Rands domain, doesn't wait to be properly recieved and enters his throne room uninvited, i'd say that classifies as arrogant, and self important. I'd like to see how any of you would react if someone pulled that trick at your homes. "Lisa theres a guy here to see you." Guy strides into the room uninvited. Lisa grabs phone and dials 911 seeing this complete stranger in her living room.

 

And what is the reaction of the members of her own society that are present? Relief that a capable intelligent councilor has arrived? No, quite the opposite.

 

"Merana darted through the ward, hands outstretched. "No Cadsuane!" she screamed. "You mustn't harm him! You must not!" ACoS pg 415.

 

Hardly joy at seeing another sister that you respected and trusted, more like a cry of someone seeing a viscious dog about to bite.

 

Their second encounter shows no better.

 

"Calmly, Cadsuane picked her way across the slope to Rand. And slapped his face so hard his head jerked. Min's breath caught in shock. "You will not do that again," Cadsuane said. ACoS pg. 723

 

So upon their second meeting she thinks that it is ok to assault him, the SECOND time they have ever met. And whats his reaction?, does he freak out and retaliate like most people would? No, he doesn't, he treats her with more respect than she deserves.

"Surprisingly Rand only rubbed his cheek." ACoS 723

Why, if she was acting in a wise, noble way would the author of the series have used the word surprisingly? Because, even RJ knows that if you do something like that to a total stranger they would be expected to go ballistic. But Rand doesn't.

How many times does she refer to him as "boy", just go ahead and ask around if you don't think that term is offensive and condescending, but does she use his name? Never. And yes she refers to most females as "girls", but that argues more towards her arrogance than against. There are more references of her arrogance and reprehensible behavior, that i could of course quote from more of the books, but why?

 

Oh, and as for her success, what has she accomplished that, say..... Verin could not have? As a matter of fact i think Verin would make a much better councilor, and Rand has reasons to trust her, not to mention a history with her. (The only success is Cadsuanes freeing of him from Far Madding, and i believe that was included for literary justification of her existence, because Nynaeve has a ter'angreal "well" also.) And would any of you say, that Verin was sycophantic in her behavior towards Rand? Because i would not. And as to Cadsuanes mission to teach him "Laughter and Tears", i see her in no way being the one to teach him that, that will have to be Moiraine and his Future Wives. Oh, and what exactly is "his place" that Cadsuane must put him in, seeing that he IS the only hope the world has?

 

I have shown examples, i have quoted books. Yet people will still have their own opinions about her, and defend her incessant elitist attitude and arrogant demeanor as "cool." And cry out that her barbarous actions are "necessary." I can't change your opinion, and you can't change mine. C'est la vie.

But regardless of personal insults thrown at me, i did enjoy the debate, and am capable of agreeing to disagree.

 

Edited: Grammar and clarity.

[RobertAlexWillis]

So upon their second meeting she thinks that it is ok to assault him, the SECOND time they have ever met. And whats his reaction?, does he freak out and retaliate like most people would? No, he doesn't, he treats her with more respect than she deserves.

"Surprisingly Rand only rubbed his cheek." ACoS 723

Why, if she was acting in a wise, noble way would the author of the series have used the word surprisingly? Because, even RJ knows that if you do something like that to a total stranger they would be expected to go ballistic. But Rand doesn't.

 

 

Well, you wanted evidence that her methods work. There you go. It seems Rand isn't a normal person (shocking, I know, he only has the fate of the world on his shoulders in his early 20's, enemies on every side, and a madman in his head). Nice of you to refute your own argument. Seems Cads knows him better than you do.

[RobertAlexWillis]

A few other points ...

 

"Merana darted through the ward, hands outstretched. "No Cadsuane!" she screamed. "You mustn't harm him! You must not!" ACoS pg 415.

 

Hardly joy at seeing another sister that you respected and trusted, more like a cry of someone seeing a viscious dog about to bite.

 

You can't seriously argue that we should judge Cadsuane by MERANA's reaction ... especially since Cadsuane obviously had no intention of doing what Merana idiotically assumed (ie capture and still Rand). Merana's reaction was based on her flat out wrong assessment of the situation.

 

Oh, and as for her success, what has she accomplished that, say..... Verin could not have?

 

She kept him alive while he cleansed the taint, by organizing a force that repelled almost all the living Forsaken at once. A minorly important detail.

 

Nynaeve has a ter'angreal "well" also

 

Which Nynaeve didn't know how to use until Cadsuane taught her.

 

Oh, and what exactly is "his place" that Cadsuane must put him in, seeing that he IS the only hope the world has?

 

His place is just that, actually being the Hope of the world, rather than a tyrant, which he is very close to becoming.

 

Her VERY first entrance is one of puffed up self importance. She enters Rands domain, doesn't wait to be properly recieved and enters his throne room uninvited, i'd say that classifies as arrogant, and self important. I'd like to see how any of you would react if someone pulled that trick at your homes. "Lisa theres a guy here to see you." Guy strides into the room uninvited. Lisa grabs phone and dials 911 seeing this complete stranger in her living room.

 

That comparison is so entirely out of context it is invalid. "Lisa" is not the Dragon Reborn. His importance and position and personal power demand that he have SOME form of restraint placed upon him, otherwise he becomes a tyrant. Cadsuane deliberately staged her entrance in that way to TEST Rand's self control and restraint. Actually, her constant needling is developing his self control and restraint. It is deliberate, and it is working, albeit slowly.

[Guest cwestervelt]

It's nice to see that people still look up words if someone uses one they don't understand.

 

Rand consider himself to be without peer. When someone refuses to accept anyone as an equal, there are only 2 ways people are going to be able approach him and get noticed. They can kiss his ass or beat him over the head until he sees reason. Rand gets more than enough of the first and not enough of the second. Cadsuane, rightfully, is using the second approach.

 

I've said it before, and if you pay attention to what is going on, you would see it yourself. Cadsuane treatment of people is consistant with how the subject person perceives their position to be.

 

Rand only recognizes strength so to gain his notice she must show she is stronger.

Rand tries to be egomaniacal so she takes him down a notch.

The Aes Sedai who can't show they have a backbone around her get treated as week and subservient.

Sorilea and Verin gain her trust and respect by showing she the won't be intimidated and will oppose Cadsuane if necessary.

 

"Calmly, Cadsuane picked her way across the slope to Rand. And slapped his face so hard his head jerked. Min's breath caught in shock. "You will not do that again," Cadsuane said. ACoS pg. 723

 

So upon their second meeting she thinks that it is ok to assault him, the SECOND time they have ever met. And whats his reaction?, does he freak out and retaliate like most people would? No, he doesn't, he treats her with more respect than she deserves.

"Surprisingly Rand only rubbed his cheek." ACoS 723

 

Since you kindly provided the quote, I might as well comment. I believe this came right after we Balefired something again. Which, until then, he kept doing even though he knew he was damaging the Pattern everytime he did. I guess you failed to realize the significance of his reaction. He finally saw someone that wasn't going to be bullied and he started to listen to her afterwards. Until then he never truly saw Cadsuane, and he certainly didn't respect her.

 

From here out RobertAlexWillis is on his own as I'm done with you. It's hard to believe someone can get so blinded by hatred of a character in a book.

 

Addition: BTW, I don't know what version of A Crown of Swords you are using, but I am guessing it is the paperback as there are less than 700 pages in the hardcover I have. The quote is from page 563 in mine. Chapter 36 "Blades" if anyone else wants to look it up.

[Jimmyrun]

I won't argue that what Cadsuane is doing isn't harsh, because it is, but I definitely agree with the point that in his current state harsh may be the only thing that gets through to Rand. From the things we have learned about Cadsuane she has been very successful with men who have been able to channel and I imagine that her years of experience have most likely shown her what works in many different situations. Her experience has shown her that sometimes it is more effective to be gentle and other times it is more effective to be harsh, and this is one of those times that harsh may be the what helps the most.

 

You say she should try talking to him. Try to communicate with him on an equal level. Do you honestly expect that to work? He doesn't consider anyone to be on equal footing with him, just as tools to be used. That is what Nynaeve and Min have been trying with no success.

 

To go along with that nice quote Cadsuane is in a much different position than Min and Nynaeve, as well as all those who are close to Rand, because those close to him don't want to hurt him but as Cadsuane herself said she wouldn't hurt him more than she had to. I honestly think that what Cadsuane is doing will be more effective than trying to talk about his feelings or something else for a few reasons:

• 1) As has been said already Rand is getting a little bit of a big head and thinks that nobody can help him so why would he listen to Cadsuane and take her advice or let her be anything similar to a councilor? Why would he see her as an equal unless she proves that she is?
  2) Rand has been conditioning himself to be hard and I take that to mean he is trying to beat feelings/emotions out of himself and sometimes when people become so hard and cold the only way to feel anything is by taking things to the extreme
  3) Time. I don't claim to know how long until TG but I know that Rand needs to change if he is going to save the world and not destroy it and with a limited amount of time I just don't see Cadsuane being able to reach him through more "traditional" means as it were. Yes this may be harsh and it most definitely will hurt him more than the other ways that she could go about but with the last battle approaching I don't see that she has time to coddle him. She can't afford to have this go slowly and to me any other method would be too slow. Cadsuane will do what she has to do to help him, even it is painful, because what he is and what he does is more important that anything else, and she won't let him fail

 

I think we can all agree that Rand needs to change the only question is if what Cadsuane is doing is the right way or not. Personally I see Cadsuane doing what is right for Rand given what she has to work with. He has gotten to the point in his life where not much can get to him, I mean come on he just shrugs off losing a hand, he is past the point where talking is going to do much.

 

Also, Cadsuane isn't in the same position as Min or Nynaeve, or any other characters who are really close to Rand, which will allow her to do what she must knowing that he does have people who truly care about him, people that will be able to help him get through the pain and when he finally realizes what is wrong will be there to help him cope with those revelations. I really think that in the end the best influences for change in Rands life will come from Elayne, Min, and Aviendha but as he is now something drastic needs to happen to get him to a place where he can be helped and I think that what Cadsuane is doing will start him down the path that leads him back to his "humanity."

[OzzieAlThor]

Balance.

 

That's all Cadsuane is.

 

No matter who you are, you need to know you're not the king of the heap. Not all knowing.

 

She makes Rand (And Lews Therin) cautious and did so before Min said anything about her to Rand. That's her whole purpose of being there now.

 

Her unmitigated Aes Sedai arrogance to counter his unmitagted power. She serves the same purpose that the Truthsayers of the Seanchan do. Cadsuane is the only one (that he's not boinking) with the balls to look at him and call him a fool. Everyone with power NEEDS that. Levity. Balance.

 

Is Cadsuane doing it the right way? Who knows. Rand is who he is (hence the uber guilt over the dead women of his cause). Cadsuane is who she is (hence the uber Aes Sedai arrogance).

 

Both characters have their personality flaws. People usually do.

 

 

And Niall had 1 country. *1*. Nothing compared to Rand since he basically has 4 AND the Windrunners.

[Jimmyrun]

It was said that she has had four books to accomplish her task but from the time she shows up to the very last chapter is less than four months, according to our calendar not theirs. Check out this nice timeline at http://www.users.bigpond.com/steven_cooper/tl1000.htm#book7

 

That is from the time she shows up to the last chaper so far not when she makes her statement about teaching him laughter and tears which actually brings the time down to right around three months, once again our time. Now I don't claim to be an expert in these things by any means but it seems to me that isn't very much time to accomplish anything. Don't get me wrong one of my reasons for Cadsuane doing the right thing was due to lack of time until the last battle and I still see that but just saying that because it's been four books doesn't slam the point home in my mind because relative to the whole story so far that isn't much time, I mean since the start of EotW it has been what two years or more and since she made the statement it has been three months or so.

 

I do get the point that is trying to be made of there being other options but I still don't see that there is at this point. Maybe I am completely wrong on this but the other options that pop into my mind all involve careful discussions and the breaking down of barriers little by little and what Cadsuane seems to be doing is trying to bring them crashing down in order to start "clean" as it were. Rand is a stubborn guy and it won't be easy or quick but I see this option as the quickest available to prepare Rand for the last battle and in the end that is what is important to Cadsuane, she wants him ready to face the last battle and win it without destroying the world like what happened at the breaking.

 

Don't get me wrong Cadsuane is not my favorite character, not even my favorite female character or favorite Aes Sedai, but I definitely respect her and what she is doing does seem to be for the best. I just don't see what other options are available to her at this point. Something needs to be done and she is at least doing something. Plus sometimes people really do respond better to actions, like the old saying goes 'actions speak louder than words' and at this point with Rand I think that actions do speak louder than words will.

[Jorik Alarin]

It's nice to see that people still look up words if someone uses one they don't understand.

 

Nice thinly veiled insult there. But, unfortunately, your astounding tower of intellectual arrogance collapses shortly there after.

 

The Aes Sedai who can't show they have a backbone around her get treated as week and subservient.

 

So, they are treated as a "period of seven consecutive days?"

 

And none of you, none of you have countered my arguments with anything but your own specious ideas and beliefs. I have quoted chapter and verse examples from the text backing up my own personal view. Yet, all you provide is attacks on my intellect, and attempts to twist my quotes to mean something they don't. While your own opinions carry the same weight as mine, which is to say none, they can't be counted as evidence. Quotes directly from the source generally carry more authority in a debate.

 

Therefore, i pose a question to whomever is still reading this. What has Rand done that he hasn't "felt" he had too, where has he gone out of his way to be a "tyrant", where has he gone out of his way to inflict harm on people? I've read the books several times, and while i can see episodes of childish, petulant anger, i've never seen Rand commit "evil" acts. So, where are they, what are the glowing examples of horrible evil tyrannical behavior? Where has Rand been "unjust?" Stupid, pushy, whiny, and crazy i've seen but; NEVER unjust.

[OzzieAlThor]

Being just doesn't mean having compassion.

 

Look at Galad.

[Jorik Alarin]

That is absolutely true OzzieAlThor, and i agree that Rand needs to learn to "feel" again, that he needs to reconnect with the people he is trying to save. What i disagree with , what some people violently defend, is that Cadsuanes methods will successfully teach this. You do not teach someone to "love" by berating them and slapping them around. So, if she isn't using that method tryng to teach him "compassion", she must be using it to teach him to be "just", or to toughen him up. And i haven't seen an example of him being unjust, and i think he is quite "tough" enough.

And Galad....Galad just needs to get hooked up with Berelain.

[OzzieAlThor]

That is absolutely true OzzieAlThor' date=' and i agree that Rand needs to learn to "feel" again, that he needs to reconnect with the people he is trying to save. What i disagree with , what some people violently defend, is that Cadsuanes methods will successfully teach this. You do not teach someone to "love" by berating them and slapping them around. So, if she isn't using that method tryng to teach him "compassion", she must be using it to teach him to be "just", or to toughen him up. And i haven't seen an example of him being unjust, and i think he is quite "tough" enough.

And Galad....Galad just needs to get hooked up with Berelain.[/quote']

 

She's teching him he's human.

 

He is Rand Al Thor.

 

He is NO ONE SPECIAL.

 

Because he is trying to make himself forget it and be The Dragon Reborn, through and through.

 

If 3 chicks boinking him can't get that through his skull by being nice, then hell, what ELSE is she supposed to do?

 

Again, I suggest it's just that Cadsuane is the Aes Sedai equivalent of the Dragon Reborn. His equal in many ways. She IS in charge and no one pushes her around. Which is the way he is too. And even with her bullying and such it's a way to show him he's not some Iconic figure to everyone.

[OzzieAlThor]

Ah yes, and Galad most certainly just needs a few nights with Berlain.

 

That surely would lighten the young man up.

[OzzieAlThor]

And to complete the triple post:

 

You are making a HUGE misconception this whole thread about Cadsuane that alot of people make.

 

Cadsuane is NOT trying to teach Rand to love. Or cry. Or laugh. She plans to show him he's still just a human.

 

*Sorelia* is the one that used the term about "Remembering tears and laughter". Cadsuane didn't agree to that. She is still using this whole deal as a means to her end. Which is to teach the boy enough humility he remebers where he came from, so to speak.

[Jorik Alarin]

[quot]He is NO ONE SPECIAL.

 

I must take issue with that, he IS the only chance the world has, and if that doesn't make him "special", then what would?

 

Because he is trying to make himself forget it and be The Dragon Reborn, through and through.

 

Again i agree, and again i think Cadsuanes methods are the worst way to go about changing that.

 

If 3 chicks boinking him can't get that through his skull by being nice, then hell, what ELSE is she supposed to do?

 

Quoted, because thats awesome.

 

Again, I suggest it's just that Cadsuane is the Aes Sedai equivalent of the Dragon Reborn. His equal in many ways. She IS in charge and no one pushes her around. Which is the way he is too. And even with her bullying and such it's a way to show him he's not some Iconic figure to everyone.

 

Unfortunately that is not the case, Cadsuane is not the TDR of the Aes Sedai. Why? Because the world would not for certain fall to the shadow if she died at the wrong time. And she really isn't Rands equal at much, except being stubborn and arrogant.Which i have never contended that he isn't. He's far stronger than her with the power, (if you rid her of those ter'angreal and angreal, and he has access to a sa'angreal that would obliterate her.) He is also far stronger than she is physically. (I should probably have used was here, as he is in no state to fight an angry cat, much less a fully powered Aes Sedai with tools, in his current condition) The only place that Cadsuane has a leg up is in the intellect department. I've never thought of Rand as dumb, or simple, but he did grow up a shepherd on a farm. And she did recieve training from the most elite school with the best resources in the world. Although, he has learned much since leaving that farm. I give her credit for being wiser than he is (except when dealing with people, there i'd say they are equally inept), but i generally account his lapses in wisdom as effects of the taint, sharing his head with a madman, and his own possible descent into madness. Her reasons are no more than personality defects, and years of reinforcement of those defects. I see Cadsuane as all the ego of The Dragon Reborn, with none of the importance. Just so we're clear, Min never said that the world would die if Rand didn't learn Cadsuanes lesson. It might turn out to be a rather dreary sad world without her lesson, but it would still exist.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Nice thinly veiled insult there. But, unfortunately, your astounding tower of intellectual arrogance collapses shortly there after.

 

Quote:

The Aes Sedai who can't show they have a backbone around her get treated as week and subservient.

 

 

 

So, they are treated as a "period of seven consecutive days?"

 

I never claimed to be perfect. It's not the first typographical error I've ever made, nor will it be the last.

 

Personally, I wouldn't have called my insulting you veiled as I intended it to be obvious. I would have been rather disappointed if anyone, yourself included, missed it. You insulted me by implying that I didn't know the meaning of a word I used when you linked to the definition of it. I usually try to aviod tit-for-tat, but seeing how sychophant means exactly what I used it for, and you clearly understood what I was saying, I felt it appropriate to respond in kind.

 

By trying to talk to Rand in the manner you described, Cadsuane would be acting as a sychophant. She would be forced to pander to Rand wishes just so that he would listen to them. She would not have gained his respect and until he respected her, he wouldn't have listened to her. She already had enough examples of how well that worked. She needed to be seen as different and shocking him was the quickest way to do it.

 

I'm not saying Rand doesn't need a good shrink. He's mentally and emotionally disturbed enough to keep one in business for who knows how long. Unfortunately, Cadsuane doesn't have the time needed to sit Rand down on the psychiatrist's couch to try and get him to discuss how things make him feel. I'm sure if she thought she had the time, and that Rand would actually co-operate, she would try that. She has realized, like at least some of the people posting here, that Rand will not co-operate with that type of approach.

[OzzieAlThor]

I must take issue with that' date=' he [b']IS[/b] the only chance the world has, and if that doesn't make him "special", then what would?

 

He is not omnipotent, perfect and all knowing becaquse he is the only chane for the world.

 

Again i agree, and again i think Cadsuanes methods are the worst way to go about changing that.

 

See my last post.

 

Unfortunately that is not the case, Cadsuane is not the TDR of the Aes Sedai. Why? Because the world would not for certain fall to the shadow if she died at the wrong time.

 

She really is. I'll adrress it below.

 

And she really isn't Rands equal at much, except being stubborn and arrogant.Which i have never contended that he isn't. He's far stronger than her with the power, (if you rid her of those ter'angreal and angreal, and he has access to a sa'angreal that would obliterate her.)

 

He should be stronger. But those Angreal are as much a part of her as her hair anyway. No need to throw "if's" in there.

 

He is also far stronger than she is physically. (I should probably have used was here, as he is in no state to fight an angry cat, much less a fully powered Aes Sedai with tools, in his current condition)

 

Which doesn' matter to him (since he wouldn't use that strength anyway so it really is irrelivant).

 

The only place that Cadsuane has a leg up is in the intellect department. I've never thought of Rand as dumb, or simple, but he did grow up a shepherd on a farm. And she did recieve training from the most elite school with the best resources in the world.

 

When you're trying to control the free world without killing everyone in it, it IS important to have intellect and experience.

 

 

Although, he has learned much since leaving that farm. I give her credit for being wiser than he is (except when dealing with people, there i'd say they are equally inept), but i generally account his lapses in wisdom as effects of the taint, sharing his head with a madman, and his own possible descent into madness.

 

Or maybe he's not omnipotent and just a person trying to do his best, fallable as the rest of us.

 

You know, what he likes to forget.

 

You give him way too much credit. He is no fool. He needs help and advice. Would you suggest your president/Country's leader not have a set of checks and balances in place so he/she doesn't get too full of themselves or get to crazy with their ideas?

 

 

Her reasons are no more than personality defects, and years of reinforcement of those defects. I see Cadsuane as all the ego of The Dragon Reborn, with none of the importance.

 

Being arrogant is as much as a defect as having a temper you don't control properly. For every one of her personality faults, you can point one out for Rand as well.

 

Just so we're clear, Min never said that the world would die if Rand didn't learn Cadsuanes lesson. It might turn out to be a rather dreary sad world without her lesson, but it would still exist.

 

Here's what she said (From Path of Daggers pg 530ish):

 

"What can Cadsuane possibly teach me?" he asked suddenly.

 

"You, and all the Asha'man" she replied. That had been her viewing. "I don't know what, Rand. I only know you have to learn it. All of you do." It did not seem he intended to progress beyond letting his shirt hang down. Sighing, she went on. "You need her, Rand. You can't afford to make her angry. You can't afford to chase her away." Actually she did no think fifty Mydrall and a thousand Trollocs could chase Cadsuane anywhere, but the point was the same.

 

So if we want to start going off exactly what she didn't say, she didn't say the world would make it without him and the Asha'man learning it too.

 

Min said he needed to learn it. In my book that means unquivocally, he needs to learn it.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Quote:

If 3 chicks boinking him can't get that through his skull by being nice, then hell, what ELSE is she supposed to do?

 

 

Quoted, because thats awesome.

 

Yet you fail to understand what is being said. Love and compassion don't work with him. Attempting to understand him doesn't work. He just sees that as weakness and he only respects strength.

 

I see Cadsuane as all the ego of The Dragon Reborn, with none of the importance. Just so we're clear, Min never said that the world would die if Rand didn't learn Cadsuanes lesson. It might turn out to be a rather dreary sad world without her lesson, but it would still exist.

 

It's Cadsuane. She is going to teach you something, you and the Asha'man. All the Asha'man, I mean. It's something you have to learn, but I don't know what it is, except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all.

 

Learning Cadsuane's lesson isn't optional, it is something that must happen. That makes Cadsuane a very important person.

 

As to Rand needing to remember he is human, that comes directly from the Karaethon Cycle. The consequences of him not will by much worse than a "rather dreary sad world."

 

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.