The World Sea

[Sa Wasai]

SERIES SPOILERS WARNING If you are in the first book maybe you'll want to wait a bit before reading this...

 

In the Prologue to EotW there is a description of Lews Therin's clothes and mention of the fact that they were "...brought by merchants from across the World Sea". In another book there is mention of an enormous structure that is pointed at the sky and that kills people who come near it. (Can't recall offhand which book but the context causes me to believe the edifice has been left turned "on" for 3000 years.) The Stones also are reputed to go to other worlds (besides parallel ones). Is there any kind of backstory or comment to support other worlds were settled in the Time of Legends? Where did Ogier come from? Is the World Sea another name for "Space"?

I couldn't find any other topic headings that might help me with this. If this was hashed out long ago please forgive me, I'm a newbie.

[Luckers]

Well the World Sea was just a large sea in the Age of legends... akin to the Aryth or the Pacific. Portal Stones do not touch on other worlds then parallel ones, though according to Verin the Age of Legenders thought others DID exist, lying perpindicular accross the pattern, as her metaphor went.

 

To me it seems very likely that Finnland is one of these. Its uncertain if the world the Ogier come from is also one of these, but we know the Ogier do NOT come from a parallel world like the Seanchan animals, because their method of returning (the Book of Translation)is completely different, and something that Loial apparently knows something of, whilst his knowledge of the Portal Worls is somewhat... vague.

 

Moghedian mentions space exploration, though in truth i doubt it got far. RJ has said that it might be possible to planet hop in our solar system using links and gateways, but that beyond that Travelling is simply implausable... not enough strength.

 

Its my belief that when our age ended, it ended with a bang, specifically a war between emerging channelers and technology, resulting in global destruction. The Channelers swore themselves in service and started looking for a way out (at this stage the portal stones were made, and contact with the finn and the ogier). The ogier however had the ability to grow things, and tried to help them heal their own world. Very likely the human gift of the Voice and the Nym were made by Aes Sedai tryign to artificially recreate what the Ogier did.

 

There's some more evidence to it, but meh. Its only a theory.

[Gandaal]

My theory is that WOT is probably just a good story with no real need to be linked to the real world.

 

Speaking of weird things, doesn't Bayle Domon in EotW mention a tower of some sort sitting inside a hollowed out mountain that kills any who approaches it?

 

I wonder if that's ever going come into play or if it was just something RJ threw out to make the WOT world a bit more magical with little intention of taking it anywhere.

[Luckers]

It sounds not so magical as technological to me. Frankly i find the development of mythos from our age fascinating in WoT. Makes the story much richer.

[yolindamo]

I agree that you can see many links to our world which enrich the story. If it is indeed a post-apacolyptic world in relation to our own I have no doubt that there would be relics that would cause death. A tower that kills any who approach could be nuclear. There are lots of clues that this is what is going on, I think.

 

That is a new one for me, though, and I like it, that the fall was caused by a clash between technology and emerging channellers.

 

For some reason that is making me think of Star Wars. Advanced technology mixed with the magic of the force? Any thoughts?

[Luckers]

Just that any time a modern fantasy is suggested people think of Star Wars. :)

[Jellybelly]

Well, we do know that the WoT world is our own world. RJ has told us so. That is one of the aspects of the story that I find most interesting, and it really justifies the conventional borrowing from mythology. We do not necessarily know that our age ended with an apocalyptic war between channelers and others, however. But still, interesting.

[Luckers]

No, we don't. As i said, its just a theory i am working on. It started with me wondering why the Aiel swore themselves to peace in battle, why they served the Aes Sedai, and why they Aes Sedai called themselves Servants of All. Then came considerations of the fact that the Aiel worked with the Nym and the Ogier to grow things, thoughts of what happened to all of our times cities and technology and societies, and finally how a system of government spanning the world could have come to be.

[Sa Wasai]

'My theory is that WOT is probably just a good story with no real need to be linked to the real world."

 

Gandaal, WOT is already linked to the real world- we haven't "gotten there" yet. With all the references to the past ages and even found artifacts it is clear WOT is set in our distant future.

What I'm postulating agrees quite a bit with what Luckers said. My theory (Yes, Luckers, you are cited in this since I was thinking along much of the same lines) was that there was a technological Earth that had settled/colonized other systems. The Ogier may have been brought to Earth at that time. The emerging channelers precipitated a war that destroyed much of civilization and the technology for space travel. The channelers turned to biologic constructs (such as the Nym) and Power-wrought tools to help rebuild the world. They may have still had limited contact with the stranded colonies (the big structure that causes people to die) but no way to move from system to system. They developed the Portal Stones in an attempt to find an alternate way through space and opened up possibilities and questions that distracted them from their original goal.

 

They turned farther from tech and the colonies were left to fend for themselves. A pastoral society grew on Earth and probably much was forgotten (including that there were other settled worlds)even before the Bore was opened. Moghedien mentioned exploration of other worlds but was that something from her Pastoral Time or a dim memory carried over from the previous Age? If tech caused the downfall of the previous Age then wouldn't there be an attempt in the Pastoral Time to avoid things techish? RJ never says how long the current Age has been going- the Bore opened up 3000 years ago but how much time had elapsed in Pastoral Time prior to the Bore and the previous TG?

 

Sorry. Like WOT really needs an anthropologist flailing about in it.

[Wise One]

Just to point out, the WOT world is not just the future, but also the past.

[Sa Wasai]

Future, past, it all comes around again. BUT: the Mercedes hood ornament was from our contemporary times and survived to that far future age. That's a pretty specific artifact. Unless the Age of Legends had Mercedes jo-cars. Even then it would be 3000 years old.

RJ through Egwene pretty well establishes the orientation of Randtime here/now in EotW when she asks Thom about Lenn, Alsbet, Mosk, and Materese and the wondrous Ind. These all survived in oral tradition from the previous age.

[Luckers]

Agreed. WoT in our past would be after four Ages, and then all of evolution. I doubt as strong, if any connection could be made between us now and their history, whereas for WoT we are only 6 or 7000 years in the past... definate connections.

[A Nightmares Nightmare]

My take has always been that we are somewhere near the beginning or end of the cycle. Like the Seventh or First age.

That would leave time for channelers to die off, human existance to become extinct, dinosaurs to reign, and then to have humans rise again.

But this is my take. Luckers, feel free to correct me.

[Luckers]

Nah, i pretty much think your right, WoT is both in our past and our future. But its much much further in our past then it is in our future. The whole progression of evolution and dinosaurs away.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If there is total regression/destruction and re-evolution between Randland and us, how would we have ANYTHING left from their age? And vice versa?

[Luckers]

Well thats the point, isn't it. I dont think there IS anything left from their age. I know, i know, the mythological constructions utilized in making up our favorite heroes... I don't think of them as a part of the story, but a part of the writting. Its a tool RJ is used in constructing his characters, not a part of the plot... that as much as anything is why conclusive links can't be drawn.

 

As for vice versa... my guess is they are between 6 and 8000 years in our future... of course stuff will remain.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Thats a bit of a stretch isn't it? If we assume that our world exists as part of the wheel, then having those things in our culture, but not acknowledging the events in Randland as the source, while still granting our time as their source for those old legends, is granting a one-way exception simply to support your position.

[Luckers]

To be fair... i have tactile expression with our world, while theirs exists on the page.

 

Or if you want an explanation, past lives... memories of previous turnings of the wheel supplying people with memories of their previous lives with rand and the others resulting in religious and mythological routes in our world despite the age gap.

 

I still think they are just writing tools though.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Thats fine, I'm just saying whatever standards apply, apply in both directions in a cyclical system. If they have some of us, and we have some of them, then the same transmission methods have to be assumed, without evidence to the contrary.

[Luckers]

Yet by the sounds of it this system is more kalpas then cyclical. A spiraling system that retains the same general space yet with each turning is altered and enriched growing larger. Time in a kalpas is one way.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I guess I'm assuming that in Jordan's mind, our present world (if connected to the Wheel, if not saying he really believes this, of course) gets these myths that he draws on from events in Randland. If thats not the case, then my argument is invalid. If it is the case, then I have to think I'm right.

[Luckers]

I still see the problem of evolution. RJ has always abided by science and the real world--his exact words are 'when you're asking people to believe something fantastical, you have to make everything else as realistic as possible'. He has a strong background in physics, and has always abided by it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

You know ... there really are some educated people who don't believe in evolution.

 

 

In any case, whether he does or not, I think that statement applies more to the vagaries of human nature, the practical concerns of everyday life, etc., rather than to each cycle or upward spiral necessitating full entropy followed by a new big bang, followed by planetary accretion, followed by amino acid chains evolving into full blown organisms. Keeping a realistic flavor still allows for changes (channeling?). So he could do without evolution whether he believes it or not.

[Luckers]

RJ has indicated that the inherent logic of the science of his world is important to him. And he has a strong backing in physics, which has shaped and evolved his world. I simply dont see him doing that.

 

On evolution... down here its pretty much accepted. I know its something of a catchphrase issue in America, and therefore there is probably more scholarly debate on it that you would have access to, but in my experience in science, religion and philosophy ive as yet to encounter a viable explanation to dismiss evolution. Or anyone that believed there was (i went to a christian school and was taught evolution by a religious brother... it just really isn't questioned down here).

 

That being said its kind of moot, because its RJ's position that matters, and he's always abided by science.

[Guest Majsju]

I still see the problem of evolution. RJ has always abided by science and the real world--his exact words are 'when you're asking people to believe something fantastical, you have to make everything else as realistic as possible'. He has a strong background in physics, and has always abided by it.

 

Well, even if RJ wants to keep things as realistic as possible, he must first and foremost look at what works in the universe he has created. Which means that he has to compromise and leave evolution out of his world, because it doesn't work with the way he has set up cyclic time.

 

If he had kept the realism to the extent that he included evolution, he would have left himself with a paradox that could not be solved in a good way.

 

It's not realistic to not have evolution, but any solution to that paradox would be even more unrealistic.