Dreadlords

[Rumor]

I apologize if this has been discussed already and I didn't catch it, but I have a question about dreadlords...everybody expects that TG will involve fights on the order of the War of the Shadow, with hundreds of dreadlords and such. This is not necessary (I mean it's not necessary to the story that there be hundreds of dreadlords), but if it is what TG is going to be, then who are the dreadlords and where do they come from? They're supposed to essentially be the male equivalent of the Black Ajah (or am I mistaken in thinking they're simply darkfriend channellers? I know I read something that led me to believe they were essentially the channellers that weren't good enough to be Chosen by the DO). Perhaps it is Taim's cohorts, but according to Foretellings there will be a battle at the Black Tower and I personally expect that to happen before TG, so regardless of the outcome of that battle, the number of potential dreadlords out of the Black Tower does not sound high enough to me...So unless the DO is going to be seriously undernumbered in comparison to the previous war, I'm just wondering where these dreadlords are going to come from.

[Kadere]

As far as most people have been able to judge, you've got it. Taim's asha'men appear to be the new dreadlords for this age. And yes, a lot of people will agree that Logain will probably fight Taim and kill a bunch of these dreadlords, possibly sparking TG. But I really don't think there needs to be a lot of dreadlords to lead the army of the shadow, and though we have no idea yet, I'm guessing the DO's got a very huge army of shadowspawn. So I wouldn't be too worried that the DO's going to be horribly out numbered. From the way RJ tells it, Rand and his army have a very very very thin chance of winning this thing at all.

[Gentled Ben]

The BWB describes the "lesser" channelers of the DO as dreadlords, but elsewhere in the books (please don't make me find where), it says something about "...dreadlords, both men and women." I'm PRETTY sure that it's Rand, explaining why he offered his amnesty, but I could be wrong on that count (although I'm certain that they are described somewhere as "both men and women"). There is no reason that some of the new dreadlords shouldn't be female, and surely, there are DF Wise Ones and Windfinders, as well as channellers from Shara, probably some Sul'dam, etc., and why not some Black Ajah members serving as dreadlords, as well? Plus, some of the Chosen (not all of them though, for example, Lanfear) commanded armies, channelled in battles, and generally acted as dreadlords; they were just really high-ranking ones. In fact, the thirteen Forsaken are only the REMAINING Chosen; they winnowed out the others who had been Chosen, so that by the last year of the War of Power, only the thirteen we've come to know and love were left from among those who had been great. If that isn't in the BWB somewhere, then it's a quote from RJ that I read in a thread somewhere (again, please don't make me refernce all of my work). I'm opinionated, but lazy. :) At any rate, if any of the Chosen are left by the time the battle comes, they'll surely serve as uber-dreadlords at TG.

[Rumor]

Good point about the female dreadlords...I agree there's no reason that there isn't a good number of them available. And also, it's true that "hundreds" of them may not be necessary and that the Light's chances may be slim to none. But now, I just wonder, given the state of the world right now, how on earth the dreadlords are going to get their orders...of course, AMoL is going to be very long by all accounts, so I'm sure RJ will very cleverly work that out in complex ways.

[Gentled Ben]

SH, who appears to be the DO's avatar, can fade, Alviarin, Taim (although I too, believe Logain will trash him pre-TG-possibly even in the prologue), and the FS can all Travel. Then of course, there's always pigeons, or in the Shadow's case, maybe crows. Oh yeah, Slayer wanders TAR, and I suppose he could be demoted to errand boy in a pinch, though I can't imagine that he'd relish the task. That should suffice for lines of communication, and besides, the troops are all likely starting from the same basic point, namely, the Blight. It's not like Risk, where you start out with your armies all over the (RandLand) board.

 

I don't think that the Light's chances are all that slim. Apparently, the ol' Wheel in the Sky keeps on turnin', and third age after third age, the Light opens the can of whup-arse. Besides, Rand and co. have won all of the major confrontations with the Shadow so far. Look at how the FS were dropping like flies in the early books, for example. Rand and Moiraine walked through them like raindrops. Of course, it'll be a close-run thing or there'll be no edge-of-our-seat, page flipping intensity to the end of the story, but rest assured, the Shadow's goin' down. Oh yeah, WAY down, baby. :D

[Rumor]

I agree completely that the lines of communication are in place...all of those you stated are likely more than enough to achieve orders being spread. I was thinking more along the lines of who would they get their orders from and how their superiors would even know they were there to be used.

 

To be more specific, even though Moridin has seemingly brought all of the FS together, it is obvious that at least some of them don't really plan to follow him and just consider him the current favorite (to be replaced if at all possible) of the DO...so first off, is there even a single FS (i.e. Moridin if there is one) who knows who ALL of the potential dreadlords are? And supposing he does, if he gives commands to each of the FS to find this, that, and the other dreadlord and order him to the blight, are they going to actually do that?

[Gentled Ben]

Hmmm... IF there's one FS who knows all of the dreadlords, then yes, I'm sure it would be Moridin, but I bet there's something like a structured chain of command, whereby Moridin will inform Taim, and DF So-and-so, and DF Whomever, etc. to gather their charges, i.e. their dreadlords, and report to wherever, without him having to personally know the name of each dreadlord.

 

I haven't had any indication, from the behavior of the FS or from their various POVs, that any of them would blatantly disobey Moridin to his face. They all seem disturbed by, if not flat-out terrified of, him, except Lanfear, who was the only one who really showed the backbone to even approach defiance towards him (in TAR, TGH, I believe), and he holds her leash now. They'll follow his orders. If you'll recall, one of the FS, I don't remember which (Semi comes to mind), had a POV in which they figured that they'd have all of eternity in which to unseat the Nae'blis and take charge. They all want to pull him down, but they think that there'll be plenty of time.

[Rumor]

I agree that none of the FS would blatantly disobey Moridin and certainly not to his face...but that is not to say that if he gives them an order that they will directly obey it either. Considering how everybody in this series bends the truth to his/her desires all the time (good guys and bad guys included), I don't see how some of them don't think that they can just sit back and ignore his orders (after promising to follow them) and watch him die.

 

Along those same lines, allowing for the "chain of command" to result in all of the dreadlords being drawn in for their respective purposes is a recipe for disaster for the shadow...perhaps this is now RJ is going to provide a mechanism for the light to win...and for great potential battles to continue post-series

[Luckers]

Dreadlords was a term coined in the Trolloc Wars to refer to the channelers that fought on the Shadow's side. They were both men and women. They were not lesser channelers then the Forsaken, Forsaken was used in the same way to refer to all of the Aes Sedai that went to the Shadow in the War of Power. The greater channelers were called the Chosen, and only by the Friends of the Dark, the light had no word for them especially. There were also, incidently, more Chosen then the thirteen we know--some were killed by the Dark One, some by the light, and some by the other Chosen. My guess would place their number accross the length of the War at being 39, which is the number of people the Dark One has allowed to touch the True Power.

 

As for who will be the new Dreadlords, my guess would be that there are around 300 Aes Sedai who are Black given the disposition and extensive nature of the network. Taim is said to have 100 men who are his people... there may be more who arn't openly his, though i doubt it. He's never been especially subtle. There are 6000 Wise Ones, of which i'd give maybe a third to the shadow... 1875. And thats being kind. Extremely kind. There are, based on the descriptions of ships, presense of apprentices and so forth, roughly 3000 windfinders. So maybe around 1000 darkfriends. There arn't many darkfriends among the sul'dam, or the kin, so they are irrelevant, as are the novices, who i can only see being used like batteries in circles.

 

This does put the Dark in a bad way, massively outnumbered by the light, and we've seen how much of an advantage channelers can be, so its been suggested that the Dark may have other sources... Shara (which i doubt, the Ayyad are too used to using compulsion and the like, and from all indications as nasty as they are, they do serve the light) Aiel male channelers, who have been going north may have been turned, the Land of the Madmen by all accounts produces many channelers.

 

But i suspect the main source of dreadlords will be from Randland. It is my belief that when Ishy learnt that Rand had been born he set some people to start training channelers--specifically i think Taim was one of these people. It makes sense, he must have done the same in the Trolloc Wars or there would have been no male dreadlords, and Taim has admitted to training people in the past, and displayed other signs of have been trained by the Forsaken (the use of the term 'so-called aiel'... people only pick up others peoples lingo after long-term exposure). Given also, how many women go untrained (the Kin don't accept wilders etc) i think it likely that women too would have been included in this training process.

[Gentled Ben]

Thanks, Luckers. You and RobertAlexWillis always have well-thought, detailed posts. :)

Rumor, I think that regardless of their respective agendas, all of the FS are committed to winning TG. I don't think they'll risk throwing the game just to injure the quarterback, so to speak. Of course, unless you're familiar with American football, that won't make sense as an analogy, anyway. Suffice it to say that I think they'll all be present and accounted for and ready to do their part when it hits the fan.

 

Also, Moridin seems to be hedging his bets against just such an eventuality, judging from the "The Time of Return is approaching; no more adventuring on your own" speech. I don't think they'll pull any stunts like Mesaana and Moggy did at Shadar Logoth; this is simply too important to them.

[Rumor]

Luckers, I certainly agree that there could have been searching out and training of those who could channel by the *living* Foresaken, but it just doesn't strike me that there will be much to come from such training given by those not in the light (they don't seem the type)...there is only one book left (long as it might be) and there have been no real hints other than Taim that people have been sought out to serve the DO and trained like Taim was. Perhaps he is an example who has proven to be very flamboyant, but I consider him to be a special case.

 

The potential for dreadlords from those male channelers sent into the Blight from the Aiel and the Land of Madmen is perhaps enormous and something I had not really accounted for (in fact, that could easily answer my original question), but as for the DF possibilities among the Wise Ones, etc. why is 1/3 of the Wise Ones as DFs generous? I would think the number lower than that, not being generous...

[Gentled Ben]

Whoa, I hadn't thought about Aiel male channelers at all; what a great point! Plus, Lord Luc/Isam went to the Blight and were turned or whatever, so I think there's precedent for just such a thing. I mean, we certainly have no evidence that they all go up there and die.

[Rumor]

Ben, I agree with you too, for the most part...I think in AMoL, the FS will be brought completely into line (though I don't think they all care about who wins TG...after all, Ishy knew that the battle goes on and on and on, so they could easily be just trying to procure their spots after the battle regardless of who wins). I think they will be brought into the fight via threats from SH and Moridin and ultimately will fight that battle.

[Luckers]

I meant that i didn't think there would be that many Wise One darkfriends, but without evidence one way or another i settled on a number that was, i suspect, somewhat high. I did this because RJ has stated that the Light is in a bad way, yet the Light currently has arond 14,000 channelers while the shadow has around 3,000. Worst case scenario type thing.

 

I believe Ishamael started training people as much as twenty years ago, and sent them out into the world to find others and train them. Taim has displayed signs of long term exposure to the Forsaken, has said that he has trained people in the past, is a darkfriend so those he trained would have had access to protection and not gone insane as he said, so i suspect he is one of these people. I do not think he is the only one though. Even Ishamael would not give the task to just one person, and those that Taim trained, have likely in turn trained others.

 

Moreover we know that Ishy has done this in the past... he must have, or there would have been no male dreadlords... not as any sort of substantive force. I also think its highly likely that there are women doing the same thing.

 

I don't think the living Forsaken are training anyone now--why would they when they can delegate.

 

As for the Aiel male channelers... i do not know if they will be that massive a force. 3/4 wilders die, amongst women, and i cant see it being different for men, and capturing and subdueing, then turning them to the shadow will likely take its toll. Nevertheless i thought i should mention them.

 

The Land of the Madmen--i remain uncertain. If the rumours are true, then they seem to have a large number of channelers wandering about unafiliated...that being said i somewhat suspect that the rumours of that land are intentionally generated as a smoke screen to keep people away--potentially by the shadow. I have a thought that maybe that land is serving as a martialing area for the shadow's channelers... and indeed has since the Trolloc Wars... but there is no evidence.

[Gentled Ben]

Unless the DO wins, the only spots the FS will procure after TG will have tombstones to mark them. They care who wins. Only Ishy knew the that TG is repeated again and again, but he believes that this time, it can be diferent, as he surely believes EACH time. His attitude isn't one of apathy.

[Luckers]

I rather suspect the Dark One intends to destroy the world... something i think Moridin is aware of. The others, though, are dupes.

[Gentled Ben]

I agree. I also believe that the Pattern IS the prison. I mean, it's through a thin spot in the Pattern that Meirin is able to sense the new power source. I think that it's fairly clear that Ishy gets this, as he called for the destruction of everything when he had his coming out party in the AOL. Nae'Blis is probably just "Last to Die," but the DO has to win for that to happen. Ishy thinks it would be good for everything to go away, so he wants to win, even though that, like Ishy, is insane, and yes, the others are dupes.

[Rumor]

Ok, first to Ben – that I can recall, none of the FS have indicated in a POV one way or the other what they believe about the Wheel and whether or not the battle happens again and again. I agree it was a fallacy for me to assume that Ishy (who is the only one to reveal such a belief) was not the only one, but I just don’t see him as being the smartest or most intuitive, so I just assumed that at least some of the others had the same perception. I am not saying they are apathetic towards the outcome, but I disagree that if the DO loses there will not be enough chaos left in the world for some of them to capitalize without any of the “good guys†knowing…and their POVs have consistently indicated their desires to survive and live forever (the way they want to live). Obviously these desires are independent of the DO…they only went over to him to take their best chances of fulfillment…unless AMoL is 4000 pages long, I don’t see how the world won’t be in a state pretty close to chaos after TG, assuming the good guys win…so I just don’t see why they don’t think they could find a place regardless of who wins.

 

To Luckers, if you are right, then Ishy has been marshalling dreadlords for 20+ years and Rand stands no chance (unless they’re really shitty channelers). If Rand could gather almost 1000 male channelers in less than a year (granted, they weren’t subtle about it), then surely Ishy already has the Ashaman outnumbered from having 20 years to work on it. I’m a bit confused about your numbers being on Rand’s side. Do they assume all Seanchan aid goes to Rand in TG? Otherwise, suppose a third of all female channelers are DFs and we don’t have that kind of dichotomy (14 to 3 I mean)…

[Rumor]

If that is the dark one's intention and the FS are dupes (other than moridin), why would they all remain dupes through to the end...several of them have shown themselves to be pretty clever and what's left for them if the world is ended?

[Gentled Ben]

They would remain dupes to the end precisely because they had been...duped.

 

When I said that I thought they had plenty of time to overthrow the Nae'Blis, I meant that they thought they would forever live and rule in a world remade in the DO's image. I didn't mean that any FS, other than Ishy, has a clue as to what's REALLY going on with the wheel, et al.

 

It's the DO who gives them their immortality. If they lose TG, the DO is out of commission until at least the next time the second age, the AOL, comes around again. Who will keep them going? They'll be connected (the little, black lines?) to something that's disconnecterd, so to speak. Remember Herid Fell's discourse on the turning of the wheel and it's effect on the DO's prison-intact, Bore, patch, intact again-I guess I've just always assumed that if the DO loses TG, then all bets are off, and the FS are out of luck. I sort-of pictured them rotting and decomposing on the spot, much like Ishy did in the Stone of Tear. Of course, I could be wrong, in which case, sure; there'd be plenty of chaos for them to play in, but again, when we get to the second age, we see that the world has no memory of the DO, no word for war, etc. That doesn't seem like a world that's played host to immortal, insane sorcerers, you know? I'm pretty sure that if TG goes poorly for the Shadow, then the FS are out of it until next time around.

[Rumor]

All I'm saying is that the some of the FS are pretty smart (or they wouldn't be around anymore) and that perhaps there is room (maybe in AMoL) for them to stop being dupes if the DO's plan is the end of the world...I extend that to saying that some may be clever enough to not really be interested in the world remade to the DO's image, which may not be to his/her's own desires...and no, I don't expect them to spontaneously rot if TG goes badly for the Shadow...I expect the world to continue on its way trying to keep everything in balance.

 

Perhaps I am wrong, but I see the battle being between the good side trying to win, but ultimately only really reestablishing balance. Even if different ages are out of balance (for instance, one age may know nothing of the DO and another age be nothing but battles against the DO), but all in all balance is the best the good guys can achieve when fighting against some who would rather end everything than allow that balance to continue...

[Luckers]

If they've believed it till now they'll believe till the end. The Dark One is hardly going to do anything showy to reveal his intention.

 

About the channelers--20 years of gathering channelers is not as easy as it seems. For starters there's the little problem of them having to be darkfriends. Taim and the others couldn't simply walk up and be like "Hey, you wanna learn if you can become a dreadlord?". Then they have to be trained, housed and hidden...

 

By all indications they were not taught how to travel... which makes sense. Ishy wouldn't want them getting too powerful in their own right. Ignorence is a method of control.

 

As for the numbers of the light... of course all the Seanchan damane are going to be in play... why wouldn't they be? They're weapons. We know from Suroth that almost no sul'dam are darkfriends, which means they'll all be on the lights side.

[Rumor]

Do you think it possible that the shock of learning they can channel will drive some of the sul'dam do the dark side or do you think that particular catastrophe is going to play out after TG? I happen to believe the latter and that this will have little impact on the battle, but it occurred to me as one way to have DF sul'dam at the end could come out of that revelation.

[Gentled Ben]

I don't think that after TG, there will be much DF activity, what with the DO completely sealed up again. At least with a Bore, you have a chance to spring your champion loose, but with the prison intact once more, there's not much of a Shadow left to turn to, at least for that Age (I liked your idea of balance).

 

I think that most of the chaos and warfare after TG will just come from individual ambition; everybody trying to carve a piece of the new pie for themselves, but I don't think they'll be doing it for the sake of the DO, or anything like that.

 

Also, even though I don't think the FS will see the true agenda of the DO, it occured to me that Lanfear was certainly thinking outside of the box with her ideas of replacing the DO and the Creator both, so maybe one or two of them will strike out on their own, as you suspect. I don't think that being "duped" makes them any less intelligent, just mistaken. Ha! They're the "Mistaken Forsaken."

 

At any rate, I don't think that shocking revelations will turn the Sul'dam towards the Shadow because of the aforementioned reason, but it might turn them to their own agendas, sending them off on tangents of individual ambition so that they end up being no better than the ancient Seanchan Aes Sedai whom they replaced.

 

Maybe it's that kind of selfish ambition that begins thinning out spots in the pattern so that the DO can be sensed? After all, most of the FS are simply exrtrememly self-absorbed, to the point where the gratification of their own desires becomes so important to them that they're willing to feed people to trollocs in order to get what they want when they want it, and it's that type of thinking and desire that the DO fed and intensified during the Collapse.

[Rumor]

All good points :D

 

LOL, the "mistaken forsaken" need to make it into a Prophecy...or at least a children's rhyme in the new Age