The absence of Lews Therin in Tel'aran'rhiod

[UncleButcher1980]

Hi all. I have just been re-reading The Fires of Heaven and was curious as to why the Lews Therin voice seemed to disappear when Rand entered Tel'aran'rhiod during his confrontation with Rahvin. It also happened when he spoke to Moridin in The Gathering Storm. I guess it may have happened at other times but I cannot recall right now. Has there ever been a explanation for this?

[yoniy0]

Since you express knowledge of TGS, I'll assume you've read Veins of Gold. Otherwise, you would probably want to stop reading now.

 

What I'm about to say isn't cannon. I know Luckers disagrees, for example. Nevertheless, here's my 2 cents: LTT isn't real. The memories are real enough, but Rand only has access to them because his psyche's growing unbalanced as the series progresses. His subconscious manufactured LTT's voice as means of handling what's been happening to him, building it around the memories he has. Those parts of Rand that were - put simply - mad, he 'dressed up' as being someone else. As the story progresses, though, especially in TGS, Rand's own voice reflects more and more of that instability, and LTT actually starts to make sense (that's the part of him that he doesn't want to listen to, then), until finally he realizes what's been happening, and hopefully achieves reintegration (which, as you'll recall, Semirhage claimed was very difficult indeed to do if one hears the voice of someone who actually lived).

To your question, Cadsuane's comment about mad men hearing voices made Rand doubt himself, hence the temporary withdrawal of LTT's voice. The Dream in which he finally met Moridin is a different story, and I do not know why he didn't hear LTT's voice while dreaming. Perhaps it had something to do with WHERE he was, and I don't mean tel'aran'rhiod. I personally suspect that those Dreams don't occur in TAR, and never did. But don't hold me to that, it's just a feeling I have.

[UncleButcher1980]

That's really interesting and makes a lot of sense. It never occured to me that that meeting (and others) with Moridin didn't take place in Tel'aran'rhiod. So in a nutshell are you saying the voice is a result of the madness? Which makes it even more interesting, to me, why that voice goes in Tel'aran'rhiod or wherever the place may be. The point you make about Cadsuane is interesting but when the voice goes as Rand is chasing Rahvin in the Fires of Heaven, that's before Cadsuane came on the scene so I wonder what caused that?

[yoniy0]

That's really interesting and makes a lot of sense. It never occured to me that that meeting (and others) with Moridin didn't take place in Tel'aran'rhiod. So in a nutshell are you saying the voice is a result of the madness? Which makes it even more interesting, to me, why that voice goes in Tel'aran'rhiod or wherever the place may be.

Yeah, to me, too. I think it's probably Ishi's dreams or somewhere near Shayol Ghul, or a blend of the two, perhaps with some aspects of the Dream World. I bet we'll have an answer to that before the series is over.

 

The point you make about Cadsuane is interesting but when the voice goes as Rand is chasing Rahvin in the Fires of Heaven, that's before Cadsuane came on the scene so I wonder what caused that?

The voice had barely appeared then. It's not weird if he didn't hear it while chasing Rahvin. And it's not tel'aran'rhiod which makes the voice go away. For example, here's an instance where Rand hears LTT whilst in TAR:

As soon as Egwene disappeared, Rand stepped out from among the columns. He came here sometimes, to look at Callandor. The first visit had been after Asmodean taught him to invert his weaves. Then he had changed the traps laid around the sa'angreal so only he could see them. If the Prophecies could be believed, whoever drew it out would "follow after" him. He was not sure how much he did believe any longer, but there was no sense taking chances.

Lews Therin rumbled somewhere in the back of his head — he always did when Rand came close to Callandor — but tonight the gleaming crystal sword interested Rand not at all. He stared at where the huge map had hung. Not really a map, there at the end, but something more. What was this place? Was it simple chance that drew him here tonight instead of yesterday, or tomorrow? One of his ta'veren tugs on the Pattern? No matter. Egwene had accepted that summons meekly, and that she would never do if it came from the Tower and Elaida. This Salidar was where her mysterious friends were hiding. Where Elayne was. They had handed themselves to him.

Laughing, he opened a gateway to the reflection of the Palace in Caemlyn.

[UncleButcher1980]

Yeah that's a good call, I've only got up to Fires of Heaven in my re-read so I wasn't sure if it had happened since. I thought perhaps I'd picked up on something there but obviously not. But the meeting with Moridin, that's still really interesting and I've just quickly done a re-read of that scene and the colours that normally appear when Rand thinks of Mat or Perrin don't occur as well as the apparent lack of Lews Therin's voice. Also later Rand thinks how he feels more stable in the place, right after Mordin says the Great Lord can grant sanity. I wonder if any or all of those symptoms are a trick of Moridin's, for whatever gain I don't know. Or, if it is somewhere near Shayol Ghul as you suggest could being there really alleviate sanity? This is getting ever more intriguing.

 

[didymos]

LTT vanished after Rand used balefire in the normal world. Then he entered T'A'R and triggered Rahvin's first trap, and LTT returned and tried to take over to the point where Rand even started to look like him. I don't call that "disappearing". More like Rand's utter panic and horror allowed him to suppress and banish LTT for a short time. Besides, LTT disappeared all the time, and for far longer periods. Rand also wasn't in T'A'R all that long. I'd say maybe half an hour, tops.

[UncleButcher1980]

Yeah, I think most of my original ideas are best forgotten about now. I'd dropped my copy of Fires of Heaven in the bath so didn't have it at hand to reference and I completely forgot about Lews coming back very quickly. But the whole scene with Moridin still seems interesting, to me anyway. Not just the silence of Lews, but the absence of the colours and Rand's thoughts on feeling more lucid.

[yoniy0]

Indeed, it's intriguing. I'm not sure we currently have enough to go on in speculating why that was, though.

 

@didymos are you sure Rahvin wasn't behind that whole Rand-turning-into-LTT thing? That's the impression I got back then.

[Shard]

I'm also convinced of that theory as well in fact I think RJ used Toasim in that Rand can access the knowledge of past lives.

[yoniy0]

I'm also convinced of that theory

Hi Shard. Which theory are you championing?

[didymos]

@didymos are you sure Rahvin wasn't behind that whole Rand-turning-into-LTT thing? That's the impression I got back then.

 

No, that was a reaction to the trap. The trap itself tried to unmake Rand entirely, not turn him into anything. He started to vanish, becoming misty and transparent and " [h]e felt odd. Insubstantial." Then LTT screamed "No!" and began to fight the trap by visualizing himself. Rand then flipped out when he saw the Dragon vanishing from his arm and forced LTT to yield to Rand's self-image.

 

I don't see how Rahvin could have even known about LTT, much less make a trap specifically designed to give him the upper hand against Rand. How would that help anyway? Great: now he has to fight someone with all the knowledge of an AoL channeler.

[Shard]

I'm also convinced of that theory

Hi Shard. Which theory are you championing?

 

Yours, I do believe the memories are real and the information cam from Lews but the Lews we see is a tool Rand was using to deal with the madness and where the information was coming from.

[yoniy0]

Hi Shard. Which theory are you championing?

Yours

YAY!

[didymos]

You know what the problem with "What is LTT?" thing is? That we'll never, ever get a definitive answer:

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Matoyak reporting

 

Mato: There have been rumors that you have said that Mr. Jordan did not have anything in his notes about the voice of Lews Therin, whether it was a construct or not. That or that you had sai--[cut off]

 

Sanderson: I would like to clarify this, thanks for asking. I will NOT say that it was not in the notes. However, Mr. Jordan did NOT want to reveal this information, and therefore I shall not ever either. Mr. Jordan did not want to reveal it.

 

Harriet: What Brandon said.

 

Unless those notes become accessible someday and actually have an answer, it's doomed to be an endless debate. By design, the books will never provide enough evidence to settle it.

[UncleButcher1980]

Well I just read Luckers' Real vs Construct theory thread and my mind exploded.

[yoniy0]

I don't see how Rahvin could have even known about LTT, much less make a trap specifically designed to give him the upper hand against Rand. How would that help anyway? Great: now he has to fight someone with all the knowledge of an AoL channeler.

Easy. Lanfear could have told him. And LTT's a broken man, unlike Rand. It's a gamble, but I think it would've paid off.

 

Well I just read Luckers' Real vs Construct theory thread and my mind exploded.

Yeah, he really has a way with those. Of course, he's dead wrong about this one

[UncleButcher1980]

Yeah, he really has a way with those. Of course, he's dead wrong about this one

 

 

The Contruct theory was certainly the one that immediately seemed 'right' to me. But I like both. I just couldn't get my head round the other one; perhaps I should read it again.