Siuan Sanche only THOUGHT she lied about the Red Ajah and False Dragons...

[Wheel of Thyme]

Hello all...

Im new here, first post EVER! Hi!!  Anyhow, my idea is that Siuan Sanche only THOUGHT she made up the idea that the Red Ajah set up Logain as a false dragon; in truth, the Red Ajah did JUST that...and not only with Logain. Support for my theory comes from A Crown of Swords, page 515, where Seaine ponders to herself "She had never believed those irrational tales about the Reds and False Dragons...but...why would none of them deny it"? They cant deny it. First Oath wont let em.

 

Of course, there are many arguments against this. Elaida thinks to herself that it is "vile slander" and Pevara seems not to know about it...at least weve never SEEN her point of view.

 

Why would they? While its prestigious to rid the world of men who can channel, its DOUBLY cool to take out a False Dragon.

 

But its a theme thats been in several of the books...the Reds just NOT denying (implied undenial cause the idea is beneath their notice) that they set up False Dragons.

 

Id even posit it for the big thing Brandon Sanderson says, but its in the wrong book numbers, so I doubt its it. But maybe...

 

Anyhow, I eagerly await discussion.

Sincerely,

Thyme

[Charlz Fel]

I'm pretty sure we have seen at least one Red PoV in which she thinks to herself that no Red sister could bring herself to acknowledge these claims, let alone deny them.  I also think Pevara tells the first rebel Aes Sedai they discover to reveal these "vile tales" about Logain and the Reds for "the lies they are"--and the rebel AS nearly chokes to death because she cannot denounce these tales as lies without lying. 

 

Even if the Reds did set up Logain, only a portion of the Red Ajah can have known about it; the rest would have been free to deny it, but you'll notice they did not.

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

It may be that it was the Black Ajah, working primarily from within the Red, that was setting up False Dragons.  Thus Elaida and Pevara's denial/seeming ignorance.

 

And it may be that non-Black sisters in the Red were involved, since the Highest was Galina Casban (known to be Black Ajah) for the period of time in question.  So, its pretty complicated, again.  Some might not deny because in true Aes Sedai fashion, they consider it beneath response.  Some might not deny because they truly can't, being Red sisters duped by the Black.  And Black sisters would not deny it because even acknowledging the question could lead to other uncomfortable questions that might expose them, which they cannot do.

[Wheel of Thyme]

Hello Charlz Fel and all...

Yes, good point about Pevara, she DOES insist that Zerah admit it "for the lie it is". And the text is clear that the LIE she refers to is the False Dragon one. So, its possible indeed not ALL the Reds are involved...just like ALL the Reds didnt do the "vileness" after the Aiel War.

 

But too many Red Ajah just DONT deny it; it does make me think the non denial is rather suspicious.

 

Sincerely,

Wheel of Thyme

[Mr. Micawber]

No, it was a lie.

 

The trouble for the Reds is that only a very, very, very select minority of Aes Sedai know about the Vileness.

 

Alviarin knows for several reasons - as the head of the Black Ajah, as a Sitter, and as Keeper - and she notes to Elaida that mention of certain numbers are very, very, very dangerous, since the vast majority of sisters believe what they were told to believe.

 

As a result, *denying* what happened with the False Dragons would almost certainly bring out the Red Ajah's illegal behavior during those years after the Aiel War - which Moiraine knows about, hence the list she promises to Thom, and Siuan certainly knows about having had access to the secret files. In particular, the behavior of very highly placed Reds who, unlike Toveine, avoided punishment.

 

Furthermore, you're forgetting that the Black Ajah didn't kill Sierin Vayu (Alviarin shudders at her recollection of Elan Morin's punishment for that). The Reds did it, and got away with it.

 

I suspect that Siuan very carefully designed her propaganda in such a way that directly addressing it would have resulted in the total discrediting of the Red Ajah and almost certain impeachment of Elaida (a la what happens in the US due to "High Crimes and Misdemeanors") leading to the rest of the Tower reconciling with the Salidar junta, and eventually, with Egwene.

[Wheel of Thyme]

Hi Mr Micawber et al..

 

The post about the Vileness was simply a way to state that not ALL Reds may have been involved in setting up False Dragons; I was not conflating the two different events.

 

I dont understand what leads you to believe that denying that the Red Ajah set up False Dragons would in any way discredit the Red Ajah. In a world where there IS a first oath on an Oath Rod, a "No, the Reds did NOT set up false dragons" would go far in RESTORING credit to that ajah. NOT addressing the tale is bringing suspicion on its members, as Im sure Seaine is not the only Aes Sedai to wonder "why dont they just say no"?

 

Sincerely,

Wheel of Thyme

[Mr. Micawber]

Hi Mr Micawber et al..

 

The post about the Vileness was simply a way to state that not ALL Reds may have been involved in setting up False Dragons; I was not conflating the two different events.

 

I dont understand what leads you to believe that denying that the Red Ajah set up False Dragons would in any way discredit the Red Ajah. In a world where there IS a first oath on an Oath Rod, a "No, the Reds did NOT set up false dragons" would go far in RESTORING credit to that ajah. NOT addressing the tale is bringing suspicion on its members, as Im sure Seaine is not the only Aes Sedai to wonder "why dont they just say no"?

 

Sincerely,

Wheel of Thyme

 

Mate, we have from the leaders of the Red Ajah themselves - who are not Darkfriends and have access to the 13th Depository *and* their own internal sources - statements that Siuan's stories are lies.

 

They cannot lie.

 

Game, set, match.

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

I dont understand what leads you to believe that denying that the Red Ajah set up False Dragons would in any way discredit the Red Ajah. In a world where there IS a first oath on an Oath Rod, a "No, the Reds did NOT set up false dragons" would go far in RESTORING credit to that ajah. NOT addressing the tale is bringing suspicion on its members, as Im sure Seaine is not the only Aes Sedai to wonder "why dont they just say no"?

 

To be fair, the Aes Sedai always mistrust each other, and they are all well aware of the holes in the First Oath.  So, whether they deny it or not, some will still suspect them, in the Tower and out of it.  The only reaction that would work for any of the potential people involved (Red or Black, with knowledge or without it) is disdainfully refusing to even acknowledge the validity of the question.  

 

Also, keep in mind that when Seaine had that thought, she had not even begun her investigation with Pevara, so she had hardly been questioning Reds openly.  She was not necessarily thinking about individual Red sisters being unwilling to deny it, since I doubt she had ever asked any of them directly at the time.  She was thinking more about the lack n official, public denial by the Reds to counter the Rebels' claims, and the attitude of disdainfully refusing to answer fits even better there.  To engage the Rebels publicly on a matter of policy like that would be to grant them a kind of legitimacy, and to publicly acknowledge the break in the Tower, none of which the leadership of either the Tower or the Red Ajah wanted to do.

Mate, we have from the leaders of the Red Ajah themselves - who are not Darkfriends and have access to the 13th Depository *and* their own internal sources - statements that Siuan's stories are lies.

 

They cannot lie.

 

Game, set, match.

 

Which leadership?  Pevara, Elaida, and maybe Tarna?  Can they account for the actions of either Galina Casban or the Blacks hiding as Reds within the Ajah?  Would the Black Ajah have recorded their actions in the 13th depository?  I'm afraid it is hardly as cut and dried as that.

[Mr. Micawber]

 

Which leadership?  Pevara, Elaida, and maybe Tarna?  Can they account for the actions of either Galina Casban or the Blacks hiding as Reds within the Ajah?  Would the Black Ajah have recorded their actions in the 13th depository?  I'm afraid it is hardly as cut and dried as that.

 

Galina was Alviarin's right hand man for, more or less, 20 years. Neither she nor Alviarin have given the least bit of indication that this was true.

 

The point I was trying to make was that Alviarin - and Elaida - recognized the real danger was the informing of the body politic of the Tower of the Vileness. As Toveine relates, and Teslyn, their recall was not accompanied by even a little airing of their past sins.

 

The knowledge of what the Reds did, and more importantly, the fact that only a very small number were punished, would have done incalculable damage to the Tower. As they said about Watergate, it wasn't the act, it was the coverup that was the real problem.

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

Galina was Alviarin's right hand man for, more or less, 20 years. Neither she nor Alviarin have given the least bit of indication that this was true.

 

The point I was trying to make was that Alviarin - and Elaida - recognized the real danger was the informing of the body politic of the Tower of the Vileness. As Toveine relates, and Teslyn, their recall was not accompanied by even a little airing of their past sins.

 

The knowledge of what the Reds did, and more importantly, the fact that only a very small number were punished, would have done incalculable damage to the Tower. As they said about Watergate, it wasn't the act, it was the coverup that was the real problem.

 

Where did Galina give indications about setting up False Dragons either way?  As for Alviarin, she doesn't say or think anything that I recall in either direction.  Perhaps you could provide some quotes?  Advising Elaida regarding  the political expediencies of exposing the "vileness" is not even remotely like a personal denial of setting up False Dragons.

 

You seem to be conflating the "vileness" immediately following the Aiel War with Siuan's accusations of setting up False Dragons to take them down for public approval in the twenty years following (the precise period of time in which, I might add, the Black's Galina Casban was the Highest of the Red Ajah).  Those are two wholly separate sets of events.

 

The Red Ajah's motives for not even publicly acknowledging the Rebels' accusations regarding False Dragons have absolutely nothing to do with either 1) the truth, or 2) the "vileness."

[Mr. Micawber]

No, it really does.

 

The First Oath doesn't require them to say "hey! We've been indiscriminately gentling men!"

 

But in the course of responding to questions about finding male channelers and not bringing them in, which is essential to the presumed creation of these False Dragons, and which is one of the first questions they'd get asked, they'd be forced to admit what happened.

 

Every single male channeler is supposed to be brought to Tar Valon, because, according to RJ, the Tower wants to make sure it's not severing the Dragon Reborn.

 

Failing to bring in male channelers might not be setting up False Dragons, but it's a still-able offense in the Tower - largely because the men invariably die immediately after.

[Dagon Thyne]

I'm pretty sure we have seen at least one Red PoV in which she thinks to herself that no Red sister could bring herself to acknowledge these claims, let alone deny them.  I also think Pevara tells the first rebel Aes Sedai they discover to reveal these "vile tales" about Logain and the Reds for "the lies they are"--and the rebel AS nearly chokes to death because she cannot denounce these tales as lies without lying. 

 

Even if the Reds did set up Logain, only a portion of the Red Ajah can have known about it; the rest would have been free to deny it, but you'll notice they did not.

 

She chokes because she believes them to be true....thats a flaw in the 3 oaths...,,all an aes sedai has to do is convince herself something is true to be able to say it.....i'm not saying that some reads haven't done it...but even Logain has said that it was a lie made up to turn sisters from Elaida and the Reds....it is not official policy in the red ajah...but as I said, there may have been Red sisters who did it

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

No, it really does.

 

The First Oath doesn't require them to say "hey! We've been indiscriminately gentling men!"

 

But in the course of responding to questions about finding male channelers and not bringing them in, which is essential to the presumed creation of these False Dragons, and which is one of the first questions they'd get asked, they'd be forced to admit what happened.

 

But thats my point.  Who ever asked them those questions directly?  Seaine's thoughts aren't about any particular sister who was responding to a personal question: she hadn't begun her investigation at that point!  She is thinking about the political accusation to which Elaida and the Red Ajah simply had not responded.  And there are a host of reasons apart from the First Oath to act that way.

[Dagon Thyne]

No, it really does.

 

The First Oath doesn't require them to say "hey! We've been indiscriminately gentling men!"

 

But in the course of responding to questions about finding male channelers and not bringing them in, which is essential to the presumed creation of these False Dragons, and which is one of the first questions they'd get asked, they'd be forced to admit what happened.

 

But thats my point.  Who ever asked them those questions directly?  Seaine's thoughts aren't about any particular sister who was responding to a personal question: she hadn't begun her investigation at that point!  She is thinking about the political accusation to which Elaida and the Red Ajah simply had not responded.  And there are a host of reasons apart from the First Oath to act that way.

 

Logain himself has said it was a lie.  The reason she choked was because she was one of the Aes Sedai who believed the lie.  She had been forced to take an oath to obey her questioners and they ordered her to say something that was a lie....the choking happens only when a sister is stuck with a contridiction within the oaths. 

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

Where did Logain say it was a lie?

 

P.S. I know that Siuan thinks it was a lie, and she is the one who told him to say it, but thats the point of this thread: even though she thought she was telling him to lie, it may well have actually been truth.

[birtikidis]

I kind of thought that the red set up Logain for another reason. and that was the references to the former false dragons that Ishy alluded to in the dreams (Stonebrow and all).