Graendal

[Dionysus]

Since Shaidar Haran's arrival, and Ishamael's reincarnation as Moridin and subsequent naming of Nae'Blis the two of them have been reining in the rest of the Forsaken to unite them for the Final Battle.

 

When Aran'gar and Osan'gar are reincarnated in LoC, they are placed under Shaidar Haran's control. Cyndane and Moghedien are placed under a mindtrap which Moridin controls. Mesaana was 'violated' by SH and forced to obey in CoT. Semirhage is forced to obey SH in LoC, and Graendal is forced to obey Moridin and SH in tPoD. This leaves just Demandred who hasn't been placed under Moridin/SH's control.

 

All the Forsaken are prideful, and while they will not outright go against Moridin/SH, as they will be disobeying the Great Lord, we have seen that their obedience is far from absolute. Even Cyndane and Moghedien, who are under mindtraps, attempt to find ways to carry out their own plans. These plans, depending on the strengths of the Forsaken, will hopefully place them in Moridin's position as Nae'Blis after the Final Battle has been fought. For this to happen, one of three things would have to happen.

 

1) Moridin will have to die. Either by the Dragon Reborn or perhaps even a trap one of the Forsaken secretly lay against him.

 

2) Moridin will have to be disgraced, and lose his position as Nae'Blis.

 

3) Their own plans, if it succeeds, will provide victory in the Final Battle and the Dark Lord will place him/her above Moridin for the great service.

 

We have seen some of what Graendal has been up to. Sammael notes that she will never go into open war with the Dragon Reborn, but she has brought Arad Doman into civil war and had Ituralde launch a campaign against the Seanchan. She had a part in Sammael's plans, but she has quickly tried to distance herself from that disaster. What her grand scheme is remains unknown though, and there isn't very much in the books to suggest anything.

 

Aran'gar has been attempting to make an alliance with Graendal in KoD, I just don't see any benifit coming from it as they are both set up in unrelated areas, and Aran'gar has been discovered in the SAS camp.

 

Graendal is the master of the mind in the series, when Semirhage is captured by Rand in KoD, she notes that Graendal knows much more than her about insanity and things of the sort. This is where I believe her role will come in. She is not a great general or military leader, her plans in Arad Doman have just been to spread chaos as per the Dark Ones command. Her real plan will be to attack Rand's mind, using her greatest asset.

 

In LoC, chapter 6, Sammael and Graendal have a meeting and afterwards Graendal starts musing to herself.

 

"If there were some way to discover where Demandred and Semirhage had placed themselves, it might be possible to work out what they intended to do. They had not trusted her with that. Oh, no. Those three had worked together since before the War of Power. On the surface, at least. She was sure they had plotted against one another as assiduously as any of the Chosen, but whether Mesaana undercut Semirhage or Semirhage Demandred, she had never yet found a crack between them into which a wedge could be driven."

 

I haven't really done much research on this or fleshed out any sort of plan, but it seems possible to me that somehow Graendal and Semirhage are under an alliance now. The sending of the trollocs after Rand, and Semirhage's attempted capture/being captured by Rand will somehow involve Graendal.

 

Graendal is the master of the mind, and Semirhage is the master of the body. Two of Rand's biggest problems are that he has been cut up like mince meat over the course of the past couple years, and he has approximately 4595 different personalities inside his head. Perhaps somehow those two are going to work together to exploit it.

[seoman]

my bet goes to what seems to be the most simple evidence, demadred, semirhage and messana made an alliance and they era plotting together to reach their goals(i also think they have their own goals), and graendal i believe is still playing her game and scheming with the thin agreement she got with sammael, who i belive is the one who sent the trollocs against rand(i have no real evidence of his death, and as all the forsaken who had not died by balefire, he will probably returns).

I also think the nemesis forsaken of rand is moridin, and the connection made by the mixed balefire will be something important when they confront one and other(i think moridin is for rand)

Maybe as you say semirhage, now captured, as the great healer she was has something to do with nyaneve, an a´dam and the possibility to heal rand, and graendal could follow the same path to heal the mind, the dizziness

[RobertAlexWillis]

I think that there is something that you are overlooking here ... and that is the duplicitous nature of the Dark One. The Forsaken, with the exception of Ishamael/Moridin, are dupes, in my opinion. If the Dark One is victorious, I don't think there will BE a world for them to rule after Tar'mon Gaidon. The Dark One plans to break the Wheel and shred the existing pattern. But the "Chosen" are PART of the Pattern. The Dark One consitently chooses Ishamael/Moridin to lead, because he is insane, and doesn't care if he ceases to exist.

 

Being disgraced hasn't lost him the Dark One's favor before. He was defeated by Rand al'Thor three times, and killed the third. All the other Forsaken who were defeated/killed were humiliated upon their "rehabilitation". Moridin became Nae'blis in fairly short order. This indicates a connection between him and the Dark One, above that of even the other Forsaken. Notice in none of Ishamael/Moridin's POV sections does he talk about ruling after the Day of Return. He thinks to himself that death holds no fear for him. The books of philosophy that he wrote as Elan Morin Tedronai dealt with the meaninglessness of existence and reason. The Dark One puts him first, because he is the only "Chosen" who understands the Dark One's real plan, and is fine with it. Because he is insane. Nae'blis is just a title for "last thread to be destroyed from the Pattern".

[Dionysus]

my bet goes to what seems to be the most simple evidence, demadred, semirhage and messana made an alliance and they era plotting together to reach their goals(i also think they have their own goals), and graendal i believe is still playing her game and scheming with the thin agreement she got with sammael, who i belive is the one who sent the trollocs against rand(i have no real evidence of his death, and as all the forsaken who had not died by balefire, he will probably returns).

 

The Demi/Mesi/Semi alliance has stood all this time, but things have been changing. I believe their grand scheme plan was originally some sort of attack on the White Tower using the Seanchan and perhaps Asha'man. It probably developed during the time in between Ishamael's death and Moridin's reincarnation. This is when Mazrim Taim was placed in the Black Tower, Demandreds part. This is around the time that the Seanchan perform the Return redux, and the White Tower becomes indirectly under the control of Mesaana. Since that point, Moridin has returned, assumed control of the Black Tower I believe, reined in Mesaana and has taken over the White Tower battle plans. This leaves these three without much need for each other, and their masterplan now under control of Moridin. For them to become Nae'Blis, they have to do something special. Semirhage's capture doesn't have any sign of Demandred or Mesaana, it appears that she was acting on her own accord and I can't imagine how those other two will become involved.

 

Semirhage's base of power has also been slipping out of her hands. Tuon was unable to be found. The Seanchan are at the edge of defeat. Graendal has had Ituralde fighting them, they are about to lose a large battle in the White Tower, and Rand has a demolition squad ready to defeat the rest of them or else force an alliance. I think she has taken this last opportunity to try and salvage something for herself.

 

I also think the nemesis forsaken of rand is moridin, and the connection made by the mixed balefire will be something important when they confront one and other(i think moridin is for rand)

 

100% completely agreed. This still doesn't prevent other Forsaken to attempt something. Remember, Moridin stated in his last Forsaken meeting that Rand is his, and the others are to hunt down Mat and Perrin. Later in the book we see Semirhage attempting to capture Rand. I don't think Moridin has any part in Semi's plan and she is working against his orders. She is also now somewhat protected from Moridin/Shaidar Haran punishment, as she will be hard to reach considering she is in Rand's company presumably being constantly guarded. Moridin knows an alliance exists between Semi and Demi/Mesi and the other two aren't afforded the luxury of Rand's protection. What are they to gain by Semirhages capture?

 

Graendal on the other hand has no ties to Semirhage and wouldn't be suspected of having an alliance. When Semi is captured she immediately starts the attack of having Rand's allies suspect his mental health. Graendal, being able to escape suspicion of helping Semirhage as they have never had an alliance, and being the most able to help Semirhage bring out the crazy in Rand, seems like the perfect ally for what we know of her plan.

 

I think that there is something that you are overlooking here ... and that is the duplicitous nature of the Dark One. The Forsaken, with the exception of Ishamael/Moridin, are dupes, in my opinion. If the Dark One is victorious, I don't think there will BE a world for them to rule after Tar'mon Gaidon.

 

I am definitely not overlooking this. Yes, ultimate victory for the Dark One is to destroy the wheel, although there are many different degrees of victory aside from that. The Forsaken, with the exception of Moridin, believe that they are going to gain absolute power with the Dark One's victory. Their ultimate goal is to be named Nae'Blis so they can rule this world. You're arguing with what we know, or suspect, the Dark One wants to do over what the Forsaken suspect is going to happen. Just cause we think the Dark One is trying to destroy the wheel, doesn't mean Semirhage and Graendal are privy to Robert Jordan QotW's and blog quotes to guide their decisions.

 

We also know that Graendal has some spies in Rand's immediate circle. She knew many of his plans when talking with Sammael, moreso than probably any other Forsaken save perhaps Moridin. These contacts would become important in Semirhage's capture.

[Guest cwestervelt]

seoman: my bet goes to what seems to be the most simple evidence, demadred, semirhage and messana made an alliance and they era plotting together to reach their goals(i also think they have their own goals), and graendal i believe is still playing her game and scheming with the thin agreement she got with sammael, who i belive is the one who sent the trollocs against rand(i have no real evidence of his death, and as all the forsaken who had not died by balefire, he will probably returns).

I also think the nemesis forsaken of rand is moridin, and the connection made by the mixed balefire will be something important when they confront one and other(i think moridin is for rand)

Maybe as you say semirhage, now captured, as the great healer she was has something to do with nyaneve, an a´dam and the possibility to heal rand, and graendal could follow the same path to heal the mind, the dizziness

 

Sammael most certainly died at the end of Crown of Swords. RJ has confirmed that Mashadar killed Sammael.

 

http://www.cnn.com/COMMUNITY/transcripts/2000/12/12/jordan/index.html

Question from Arsolos: It has been reported that you have confirmed that Sammael died at the end of Crown of Swords. Could you confirm that you have said this and elaborate on whether Rand was correct?

 

Robert Jordan: Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!

 

Despite Moridin's comments about the Trolloc attack having Sammaels marks all over it is unlikely that he has been resurrected. If I had to guess at who sent the Trollocs, it would be the same shadowy figure that had Slayer try to kill Rand in Far Madding. I have always suspected that to be Demandred.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Dionysus: We also know that Graendal has some spies in Rand's immediate circle. She knew many of his plans when talking with Sammael, moreso than probably any other Forsaken save perhaps Moridin. These contacts would become important in Semirhage's capture.

 

Lord of Chaos Chapter 23: "To Understand a Message"

Sprawling in a heavily gilded chair -- or perhaps it was solid gold; that would be like him [sammael] -- he balanced one boot atop the toe of the other and stroked his golden beard. "Besides, I sent an emissary to al'Thor. And the answer was favorable."

 

Graendal almost spilled her wine. "It was? I heard that he killed your messenger." If her knowing that much shook him, he held it in. He even smiled.

 

"Al'Thor killed on one. Andris went there to die; do you think I wanted to wait on couriers, or pigeons? How he died told me al'Thor's answer."

 

"Which was?" she said carefully.

 

"A truce between us."

 

Icy fingers seemed to dig into her scalp. It could not be true. Yet he looked more at ease than she had seen him since waking. "Lews Therin would never --"

 

"Lews Therin is long dead, Graendal." The interruption was amused, even mocking. No anger at all.

 

She covered a deep breath by pretending to drink. Could it be true?

 

She tried to make Sammael think that she had spies in Rand's inner circle. He called her bluff and pulled one of his own. If she had spies as close to Rand as you say the conversation proved, she never would have fallen for the his line about the manner of the messenger's death indicating a truce. She didn't know more than that a messenger from "Lord Brend" had arrived and that he died after delivering it. Anyone in Caemlyn would have known that much before long. The common conclusion would be that the message displeased Rand and he killed the messenger for bringing bad news.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Dionysus

 

The point of what I am arguing is that no one other than Moridin/Ishamael/Elan Morin Tedronai will ever become Nae'blis, because all the others, Graendal included, want to RULE when the Dark One wins, only Moridin is insane enough to knowingly go along with the plan. So it doesn't matter how badly Moridin screws up, he'll get popped back out and put in charge again. In his POV in Ebou Dar after he watched Aviendha unweave the gateway, he thinks to himself that death holds no fear for him. None of the other Forsaken have that attitude. That smacks of a permanent accomodation with the Dark One. So no matter what the others do, unless it gains the Dark One total instant victory, Moridin never gets replaced. And if the D.O. gets his victory, Nae'blis gets it anyway, so it doesn't matter.

[Dionysus]

I agree with you somewhat, and I assume you are talking about my 3 points over what would have to happen for Graendal/any other Forsaken to become the Nae'blis. We know that Ishamael/Moridin is somehow special for the Dark One, he may be the Shadow's champion reborn or something similar.

 

My theory isn't trying to state that Graendal *will* become Nae'blis, just that she has hopes to, just as many of the other Forsaken do, and what they would believe would have to happen for them to do so.

 

We see evidence of this in the books, after Graendal meets Shaidar Haran and gets reined in (PoD, ch. 12), she states:

 

Moridin, whoever he was, might be Nae'blis today, but there was always tomorrow.

 

Aran'gar in KoD, chapter 3 goes much farther...

 

Aran'gar found the exchange illuminating. It seemed that once she had disposed of Moridin, she would have Moghedien and the girl on leashes. Very good, indeed.

[/i]

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well of course she HOPES to, they ALL hope to, but their hopes are irrelevant, which is what makes the dupes. I also think its why Moridin laughs so much. The "Chosen's" whole world is one great practical joke.