Was Lews Therin the first Dragon?

[Kierkegaurdian]

Was Lews Therin the first Dragon, or was he himself a reborn form of a pre-existing Dragon?  Is Lews Therin the only Dragon that those in the Third Age have any memory of, and that is why he is so focused on?  As the ages pass after the various TGs, do people simply forget what happened, and more Prophecies are made (or is there one set of prophecies, that suffices for each time the Third Age rolls around again?  Or possibly there are different versions for each return of the Dragon and TG?)  Why is there no technological advancement past the High Middles ages (roughly) sort of world we find ourselves in?  If the Ages keep turning and turning, it seems to me that technology would progress, barring some reset button [hypothesis: we live (for example) in the 5th Age, and nuclear war will reset civilization back to a more primitive state, allowing for the return of the various ages as the DO and Dragon vie for victory].  Is my notion of time in this series hopelessly confused?  Any thoughts / help would be great.  I have read all but the Gathering Storm, but it has been a while and I am finding myself reading much more into the text and doing a lot more analysis than the first time around.

[Trumpeter]

I think he was the first "Dragon," but his particular soul has been reborn many times as told in the Prologue of EotW and the fact that he is one of the heroes of the horn.

[Warden]

"The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning."

 

;)

[mb]

About reborn, the books seem to imply that all souls get reborn.  I take each reborn has a similar occupation to other lives of the soul.

 

About third age memory, Lews Therin probably is the main one third age people remember; gleemen & scholars (or people with similar occupations) might 'remember' more.

 

About technological advancement, the guide and some scenes tell that Age of Legends had some.

The time this series occurs in, it could be considered the High Middle Ages; though their could be any number of interpretations regarding which era the series falls under.

 

[MikeRiley]

The Dragon is an Age of Legends title. So he was probably the first Dragon but not the first of the Light's champions.

[Hadilmir]

The Dragon is an Age of Legends title. So he was probably the first Dragon but not the first of the Light's champions.

The 'Dragon' is the Wheel's champion. He can be controlled by the Creator or the Dark One. Humans are alive and mostly enjoy their existence, so the 'Dragon' is generally a force for the Light. Much like people love their mother for giving them life more than they love Death for taking it away, even though both are necessary. That, and the Wheel enjoys it's existence, so I doubt it let's the 'Dragon' follow the Dark One without a fight since that would ultimately bring the Wheel's end. Still, the 'Dragon' (I'm using apostrophes because we have no idea what Rand's soul was called in previous turnings) is not the Creator's champion.

[farthammer]

Given RJ drew a lot of inspiration from myths and characters in the real world for use in WOT, the idea of the Dragon always being called the Dragon seems like a consistent one.  In the sense that dragon myths have been widespread throughout human history and perhaps in some small way the WOT Dragon is either the source of the myth or is responsible for propagating it.

[Jonas Dagaard]

I would say no, he wasn't, given the overall theme is the wheel repeats itself.  I would say that he is merely the most recent "remembered" by the common folks out there. 

 

As far as the "dragon" title...that is open to two main debates imo:

1. the title always being given no matter the "rotation."

2. the title is specific to the current "rotation."

 

"rotation" : assuming we run on the premise that time indeed is a wheel.

 

my personal opinion...could actually go either way but I am inclined to lean towards #2...but I suspect I could be in the minority on that one. heh~

[Malruhn]

When Rand used the broken Portal Stones - and everyone there had visions of their past incarnations - Rand clearly saw himself over and over... sometimes as a farmer, sometimes as Lord Dragon, sometimes as a babe in swaddling clothes...

 

But it was always him...

 

And Lews was never in the visions.

 

Lews was just one in a running stream of Dragons.  Rand may or may not be the last (I don't believe he's the last one, but others may argue).

[Jonas Dagaard]

...  Rand may or may not be the last (I don't believe he's the last one, but others may argue).

actually I agree with this as well.  if time is indeed a "wheel" as presented then he can't be the last, otherwise the "wheel" would be broken.  so this then leads us in a few possible directions that I could see immediately without burning to much brain power....some of which would not be "popular" with the masses.  heh~

[Kierkegaurdian]

Whenever I think I have a handle on how time and the repeating of Ages goes in this series, something throws me off :-)  But I had always thought in the back of my mind that this battle between the DO and the Dragon was an endlessly repeating one (duh!), without beginning or end, and the particular battle portrayed in these books is just one of these battles.  The Wheel of Time as we know it is just one particular edition of this battle.  Based on what Ba'alzamon says to Rand (that they had battles countless times before, and implying that Rand can defect to the DO ... basically, that there is a lot of variation from specific instance to specific instance) it seems this way.  The thing that throws me off is whether or not the Prophecies remain the same from Age to Age ... and when the Third Age comes around again, if the Prophecies are the same, or if they vary at all.

[Druugan]

I think that the Dragon is inherently tied to his soul and is a title he takes on in every incarnation.  I like to think that in the Age representing our current era, or perhaps the previous Age depending on how they are broken up, the Dragon was the first emperor of China.

 

The dragon on LTT's Dragon Banner, and Rand's arms, is in the style of the Chinese dragon; being long, serpentine, scaled, with sharp claws... and even mustached.  Historically, the dragon was used as a symbol of the Emperor of China, and of China itself.  It is also interesting to note that in China, the yang (male half of the yin/yang) is referred to as the dragon.  Furthermore, at some points the Emperor of China also had the title of "Son of Heaven" which I can't help but use to draw parallels to "Lord of the Morning" or "Prince of Dawn" as LTT was often referred to as.

 

LTT's Dragon Banner:

 

Chinese Dragon Banner:

 

I could on with the dragon in Chinese culture, but I think you see where I'm going.  Likewise, I think that each age into which the Dragon was born he had become known as the Dragon... only the name given him at birth was different.

[FarShainMael]

Furthermore, the wikipedia entry on dragons (at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon#Chinese ) says this:

 

"the five-clawed dragon was a symbol of the Chinese emperors"

 

The dragon on Rand's banner has five claws.

 

 

[Jonas Dagaard]

...The thing that throws me off is whether or not the Prophecies remain the same from Age to Age ... and when the Third Age comes around again, if the Prophecies are the same, or if they vary at all.

I would say prophecies are around but that they very slightly with each passing.  It is not a carbon copy on repeat but, as mentioned before, closer to a theme that is being repeated.  So the prophecies would be specific to each individual rotation of the wheel versus the exact same prophecy being repeated  in all rotations. 

 

 

In regards to the idea that we share the world with randland, which I have seen in numerous places, but I am not in the camp of placing randland and the realworld in the same continuum.  While there are similarities between the two this could be said, and made, with just about any work out there.  In this case we see that a buncha items from the chinese drawn from to help represent different things in randland.  This liberal usage of images is also represented in other facets as well, religious, culture, etc...  I personally do not believe they are anything more than cool images/ideas/concepts being used versus the idea that they are a direct link between randland and our real world.~

[Malruhn]

What about all the ancient legends about Len that flew an arrow of fire to the moon, and Tres (the tiny mother of Ind), and Alsbet (the queen of the world), and Mosk and Merk that threw arrows of fire across the ocean?  This all speaks that Randland is in our own future!

[MikeRiley]

Randland is supposed to be our world. In a very far distant past and future. The Dragon could not have been China's first emperor. That would have been way too soon and the series would not have worked in that case. We would likely be midway between Rand's current age and the age of legends, given the completely different landscape there would have to be a very major disaster sometime between. Also there would have to be enough time for us to have forgotten the Dragon's story since most of our own myths which were supposedly drawn from the events in the series are nearly entirely wrong.

 

There are different things in each turning of the Wheel, with only the major events of the age being the same. The pattern would take into consideration different cultures, speech patterns and so on and names would not be the same. If we consider that the Dragon is a title used in each rotation then we can also say that the Age of Legends Dragon is always named Lews Therin and the third age Dragon named Rand Al'Thor.

 

But I thought Asmodean or somebody told us at one point that Dragon, Lord of the Morning and all that were just human titles given to Lews Therin the man. Come to think if it, it was probably Ishamael when he told Rand they'd been fighting since time began. Different names, different titles but always the same fight.

[Mr Ares]

When Rand used the broken Portal Stones - and everyone there had visions of their past incarnations - Rand clearly saw himself over and over... sometimes as a farmer, sometimes as Lord Dragon, sometimes as a babe in swaddling clothes...

 

But it was always him...

Of course it was always him. It wasn't visions of past incarnations, but of other possible present incarnations - other lives Rand might have lived.

[Kierkegaurdian]

I am open to the possibility that Randland is our world, in the distant past or future.  The talk of the other Ages seems to imply this.  In the Lord of the Rings it is implied that the world would pass into a new phase "of men" ... the same thing could be at work in the WoT, and I like the idea :-)

[Druugan]

Randland is supposed to be our world. In a very far distant past and future.

Okay... at least we start out on the same page.   :)

The Dragon could not have been China's first emperor. That would have been way too soon and the series would not have worked in that case.

I think that you may have misunderstood me.  Did you think that I meant that The Dragon as LTT was the first Emperor of China?  This is not what I'm suggesting.  I'm saying that the Dragon's incarnation in our Age would likely have been as an Emperor of China.

 

I don't see an issue with having the Dragon born into every Age of the turning of the Wheel.  So if he would be born in our Age... why not as an Emperor of China?  It doesn't even have to be the first Emperor.  Maybe he's born in our future, at the end of our Age, and proclaims himself the Dragon Emperor and restores China as an Empire... maybe even a world-wide empire and leads humankind into the next Age.

We would likely be midway between Rand's current age and the age of legends, given the completely different landscape there would have to be a very major disaster sometime between.

Conveniently, we have the Breaking of the World.  Presumably, several Breakings would occur between the seven ages during the turning of the Wheel.  Or at least one other to get the landscape of the Third Age back to how it would be in the Age of Legends so the Breaking of the World could make the landscape as it is the Third Age so that another breaking could get the landscape back to how it is in the Age of Legends... etc., etc., ad infinitum.

Also there would have to be enough time for us to have forgotten the Dragon's story since most of our own myths which were supposedly drawn from the events in the series are nearly entirely wrong.

I mostly agree with this... but I don't see how this is an argument against the Dragon in our Age being an Emperor of China.

 

I am open to the possibility that Randland is our world, in the distant past or future.  The talk of the other Ages seems to imply this.  In the Lord of the Rings it is implied that the world would pass into a new phase "of men" ... the same thing could be at work in the WoT, and I like the idea :-)

And RJ specifically stated that the Wheel of Time is story that takes place in both our past and our future.  Cultural references and stories about Len flying to the Moon (John Glenn), Alsbet the Queen of All (Queen Elizabeth), and the other side with our legends of King Arthur Pendragon (both Artur Paendrag Tanreall and Al'thor) of Camelot(Caemlyn) with the wizard/advisor Merlin (Thom Merrilin) the knights Galahad (Galad) and Gawain (Gawyn) and so on aren't coincidence.  They are deliberately placed and skewed to show how our myths and legends are their history and our history are their myths and legends.

 

[AoShun]

Its possible that the title Dragon is something that was bound to LTT like Birgette and Gaidal Cain are bound together.  Its possible that the first time it was significant was in LTT's life time.  his life as LTT.  the other thing to consider is that we don't know by what other names LTT was called as he lived other lifetimes during the ages.  or if he was heald in reserve because he was the champion of the light selected to lead at tarmon gai'don. 

[MikeRiley]

I think that you may have misunderstood me.  Did you think that I meant that The Dragon as LTT was the first Emperor of China?  This is not what I'm suggesting.  I'm saying that the Dragon's incarnation in our Age would likely have been as an Emperor of China.

 

Yeah, I did misunderstand. It's possible he would have been reborn as that emperor.

[mb]

Jesus might be another candidate of who the soul was.  (Him and Rand both saviors)

 

 

The books seem to imply that the Dragon's soul was born multiple times each Age.

 

[Majsju]

 

And RJ specifically stated that the Wheel of Time is story that takes place in both our past and our future.  Cultural references and stories about Len flying to the Moon (John Glenn), Alsbet the Queen of All (Queen Elizabeth), and the other side with our legends of King Arthur Pendragon (both Artur Paendrag Tanreall and Al'thor) of Camelot(Caemlyn) with the wizard/advisor Merlin (Thom Merrilin) the knights Galahad (Galad) and Gawain (Gawyn) and so on aren't coincidence.  They are deliberately placed and skewed to show how our myths and legends are their history and our history are their myths and legends.

 

 

I would say that the perhaps best example of this, the story showing both past and future, is the influence of Norse gods for Rand, Mat and Perrin. It is obvious (and confirmed by RJ) that the gods Tyr, Oden and Tor have been inspirations for these characters. And in the story, the Two River lads are the inspirations for what will eventually become the Norse gods.

 

And while Tyr only had one hand, he had nothing whatsoever to do with any dragons.

[MaidenOfTheSpear]

Jesus might be another candidate of who the soul was.  (Him and Rand both saviors)

 

 

The books seem to imply that the Dragon's soul was born multiple times each Age.

 

 

The only thing wrong is that Jesus's wasn't "born" multiple times.

 

 

[MaidenOfTheSpear]

Why is there no technological advancement past the High Middles ages (roughly) sort of world we find ourselves in?  If the Ages keep turning and turning, it seems to me that technology would progress, barring some reset button [hypothesis: we live (for example) in the 5th Age, and nuclear war will reset civilization back to a more primitive state, allowing for the return of the various ages as the DO and Dragon vie for victory].  Is my notion of time in this series hopelessly confused?  Any thoughts / help would be great.  I have read all but the Gathering Storm, but it has been a while and I am finding myself reading much more into the text and doing a lot more analysis than the first time around.

 

 

Like you said for our world it would be a nuclear war. In the books i believe that when the two Aes Sedei drilled into the Dark One's prison and inevitably brought war onto the world, that thats when they went back to a slightly more primitive age that slowly grew into the Age that the series is set in.