Moiraine and Balefire

[Seldy]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but has anyone considered who taught Moiraine balefire.

 

From TDR pg 599

 

“Even the Forsaken cannot stand up to balefire,†she said. He wondered if that was what she had used on

the Darkhounds; it still made him uneasy, what he had seen, and what she had said then. “I have learned things in the last year, Perrin. I am . . . more dangerous than when I came to Emond’s Field. If I can come close enough to Be’lal, I can destroy him. But if he sees me first, he can destroy us all, long before I have a chance.â€

 

 

Moiraine mentions earlier on in TDR (pg 515) that balefire is forbidden knowledge by the tower and that she might be stilled just for knowing it.

 

Since she picked it up within the year, she obviously must have learnt it as it seems unlikely that she discovered the weave by herself. Nevertheless, how many people could she have learnt the weave from?

 

She would need to learn from a female weaver, so the following possibilities arise:

 

 

1) Someone else in the White Tower

2) Black Ajah

3) Forsaken

4) Verin

5) Cadsuane

 

I think it's easy to rule out the Forsaken and the Black Ajah. Members of the Black Ajah aren't likely to know the secret of balefire, as the Forsaken are rather power hungry and wouldn't want to be unseated by them. On the same level, it is unlikely that a Forsaken would teach balefire to Moiraine. Although they might not mind her knocking off some of the other Forsaken, giving a powerful weapon to one of your enemies seems rather stupid.

 

For the White Tower, knowing balefire seems to be something that one would not advertise. How would Moiraine find out about it and learn from them? Consider that most Aes Sedai probably don't have the strength to use balefire, not to mention that they would be unlikely to teach the weave to someone who the Tower considers to be a liability.

 

In my opinion, the only two channelers that know enough about Moiraine's quest to be willing to teach the weave of balefire to her are Verin and Cadsuane.

 

Verin knows of Moiraine's involvement from TGH and Cadsuane has been keeping her eyes-and-ears watching Siuan and Moiraine ever since A New Spring. Verin has already proven that she knows a forbidden weave, what's to stop her from knowing another. She is aware that the forsaken are loose, and could see the need to teach Moiraine balefire as a result. But the time for Verin to teach Moiraine seems relatively tight, as I believe they only met up in Fal Darra.

 

Cadsuane, who likely knows about Moiraine and Siuan's quest to find Rand, could have met up with Moiraine during the TGH and passed the knowledge on to her. Remember that Moiraine dissapeared for some time, and a very plausible reason for this is she was going to see someone rather far away from the White Tower. Still, I'm not too entirely comfortable with this theory because we know Cadsuane scalds Rand for using balefire in ACoS. She obviously considers balefire incredibly dangerous, and from her tone "you will not use balefire. Not ever." seems to suggest that if she knew the weave, she would not have taught it to Moiraine.

 

If anyone has some further ideas for this discussion, I'd be interested in reading on this topic.

 

Thanks!

[Morquan]

Hey, long-time lurker, first-time poster.

 

Personally, I always assumed she had worked out the weave while researching at Adeleas & Vandene's, though it could have come from some other source in the same time and place - I'm skeptical of it being either Cadsuane or Verin. I suspect she stumbled upon something overlooked in an old book, something only a person such as her, with an interest and inkling about what to look for, would find.

[Cybertrolloc]

If it's not Aes Sedai speak (she didn't say "I learned how to weave balefire in the past year"), either Adeleas & Vandene's as Morquan says or sometime in Shienar.

 

Moiraine is considered unconventional by a lot of Aes Sedai, but getting a weave from a book: I have doubts on that, there's no example of it I can recall. There are tons of examples of knowledge pulled out of the air as far as the power goes, see Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve.

[Gandaal]

How did Egwene learned how to create a doorway to T'A'R, and subsequenty how to travel?

 

New things can be figured out.

[Rational_Solutions]

maybe she did get it from a book but i come from the side of thinking that she figured it out on her own. How many times has Rand used Balefire before LTT showed up in his head?

[Jonn]

Ah, lovely, a Moiraine thread. :)

 

I think some people can figure out balefire if they have a need to and if they are lucky I supposed.

 

Let us consider how Aes Sedai are taught the Power firstly. They are taught to channel only what they are told to at first. It's very restrictive and there are codes and of course the Three Oaths to be a block to what an Aes Sedai is able and willing to do with the Power. Still, restriction brings about behavior that is deviant. There is always the compulsion to try new things that skirt the edge of rules and sometimes to go over the edge entirely.

 

Now Moiraine, from what we can glean from New Spring, is very adept at channeling. She is slick, smooth, good under pressure and instinctually improvisational. Still, she does somewhat adhere to the code of being sparing with the Power to a point. She seems to struggle with when to use the Power and when to use her wits instead. When she uses the two in concert as a weapon, she is about as dangerous as any being alive in the WOT world.

 

On to the Rand timeline that is mentioned. She gets to the Two Rivers after an exhaustive search that has taken almost 20 years. She has been bonded to Lan, a very dangerous weapon himself, for most of that time. Up until reaching her target in the Two Rivers, she has faced many dangers, but with Lan as a backup, her reliance on her wits has probably been the most prominent during her search. The need to conceal herself was paramount if she was to remain clandestine. So finally she finds the Two Rivers folk. They appear to be the right group, so now, her search is apparently over. Her prime duty is to see to their safety and guidance. From the moment she enters the Two Rivers, being just in the nick of time, she is constantly channeling, constantly pushing, in fact, forcing herself beyond the boundaries of what she can do with saidar. This forcing without respite had to have an affect on Moiraine's strengths and abilities. Only so much could be done in secret and many times in just the first book did she use her power openly against assailants and obstacles in their way. I think the real turning point was when she faced Aginor at the climax of Eye of the World. She threw her full strength at him in a bid to protect her party. And for a moment, Aginor actually seemed daunted and surprised at her strength and the ferocity of her attack. Of course she was no match for him, and undoubtably, this was her strongest attack in her arsenal up to this point in her life.

 

All of the pushing, all of the stress and forcing of her limits...and finally facing one of the Forsaken taught her that she needed to find an equalizer. She needed a weapon that would put her on level, to allow her to protect her charges until they could defend themselves. She needed to make herself a weapon against the Shadow.

 

Vandene and Adeleas. They were two moderately strong Aes Sedai of the current Age. They had truly dedicated themselves to fight the Shadow. One of them Green, one Brown. I don't think this was a coincidence. I think they purposely arranged themselves so that one could learn to be a weapon and the other could be a source of knowledge. They did this so that together they could fight the Shadow. I believe that they might have uncovered the basic concepts of balefire and how it might be weilded and woven. But I think they probably lacked the strnegth in the One Power to do so safely. Along comes Moiraine who perhaps confides in them the secret of Rand and the Two Rivers folk, tells them of the Forsaken and what strength they have. Together these women figure out what is needed to weild balefire, and Moiraine is the one with the strength, will, and need to put it into use.

[Guest Egwene]

I always considered balefire to be something that people strong in the power might learn when they are under extreme pressure and throw everything they have at the enemy. Bit like breaking Nyns block. Once it has happened by accident, they are than able to do it consciously.

.

[kittydesmond]

wow! Not only interesting, deep in thought in context as well!!! I must consider this, because as you mentioned it seems in a time of need...all our heros and heroins...come up with something here before unknown, or lost. Good Post Jonn!

[TheDiceAgain...]

Gandaal, the one thing you forget is that Egwene (and Nyneave and Elayne for that matter) had a captive Forsaken to teach them. Moiraine didn't have that. She learned it on her own, I would guess from Aldeas and Vandean's books(I like the theory, btw).

 

As to whether Rand ever used balefire before LT was it his head, I can't say for certain, but he did have it thrown at him by Ishy in the Stone and he may have "remembered" it vicareously thorugh LT. He also had Asmo for a while and I'm willing to bet that was one of the weaves he was taught, even if Asmo wasn't strong enought to do it himself at that point.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Dice, Egwene did not have a captive Foresaken to teach her how to make a Gateway. She did in fact reason it out on her own when she entered Tel'aran'rhiod to Travel to Salidar. Then, when she first confronted Moghedien, she used Gateways as a test of Moghedien's compliance. Moghedien did not demonstrate the weave and was rather taken aback when Egwene opened a Gateway right in front of her.

 

Concerning Balefire, I lean towards it being something that Moiraine learned around the time when she went to visit Adelaes and Vandene. While there is evidence from Rand and Nynaeve (Myrdraal in The Dragon Reborn) that it can be learned instinctively based on need, we don't have a situation for Moiraine to have learned it that way. We don't know if Moiraine had any such experience.

 

What is interesting is that many weaves, Balefire and Gateways included, appear to be instinctive. The issue is the Channellers ability to remember them.

[TheDiceAgain...]

Now that I think about it, cwestervelt, you're probably right. What brought me around is that I remebered Aviendha spontaneous Traveling when she was trying to get away from Rand. Dang it all, I hate being wrong!

[kittydesmond]

which is why I said what I did...NEED

[Mashiara]

I'm pretty sure that in the third book somewhere rand kills the darkhounds chasing him with balefire...i don't know exactly where, but it said something about it.

[Seldy]

I'm pretty sure that Moiraine didn't learn it directly from Vandene and Adeleas.

 

I seem to recall them asking her whether the Dragon was reborn, and she replies with something along the lines of 'The Amyrlin knows as much as I do, and that if he were reborn, you would be recalled to the tower'.

 

It's typical Aes Sedai misdirection; as such, it seems unlikely that they would teach her the weave if they knew it as they really wouldn't have a reason to do so.

 

I really don't think you can learn weaves from books, from the complexity that's described in weaving, it doesn't seem something that would be written down in a book.

 

Still, the people who've picked up new weaves have had limited training in the one power, and are also very strong in the one power. Moiraine doesn't fit well into this. I'll give it some more thought though/

[Direwolf Jon]

This may be a little crazy but I am just going to throw it out there anyway. Woman who can channel can sense others that can channel that are near them. If memory serves, Moiraine used her blue orb around her head to be able to eavesdrop. Maybe someone was using balefire or teaching someone to create the weave and maybe Moiraine picked it up. Highly unlikely but in this series anything is possible.

[Graf Ashaman]

Hi guys!

 

I think you got 2 things wrong:

 

1.) Balefire is not a "Lost talent" like gateways it is a "Forbitten weave"

 

2.) There are many ways of how to get to know a new weave (need, research and by accident)

 

I belief Moiraine figured it out herself since with Aignor she obviously did not know. As for figuring out yourself it should not bee too hard once you know what the weave is doing. Balefire kills (depending on the strength used) back in time, so the vicim ceases to exist before the killing. That means you need a powerful spirit weave intervined with fire creating something like a pattern-implosion.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Graf, I don't see where anyone has referred to Balefire as a lost Talent. Gateways were mentioned simply because they proove that weaves, even complex ones, can be learned without a teacher. Gateways have shown how a weave can be learned (albeit forgotten again) because of need (Aviendha), through reverse engineering (Egwene) and because someone else teaches you (Nynaeve, Elayne, Cadsuane, etc).

 

Balefire is akin to a lost Talent in that there shouldn't be anyone available to teach it. Because it was deliberately forgotten, it isn't a lost weave, but the result is the same. No one would be available to teach it. That leaves either need/instinct or reverse engineering. That we know of, Moiraine didn't have the need/instinct situation, so she had to have reverse engineered it, and the likely time frame was when she was with Vandene and Adelaes.

 

In my earlier post I commented on how both Rand and Nynaeve gave evidence of balefire being instinctively learnable. The more I think about it though, the more I agree with those that say Rand had a teacher in Lews Therin. The point was raised about how may times Rand had used Balefire before Lews showed up in his head, but that also raises the question of how long was Lews Therin in his head before Rand really became aware of him? At some point, Rand mentions how he doesn't always know what he is doing but he usually remembers it afterwards and that doesn't really fit the pattern of instictive learned weaves. (And conciously woven. Subconsiously woven Wilder "tricks" appear exempt as they are remembered when concious control is learned.) Nynaeve blew the Myrdraal away with what was probably Balefire but she has never given any indication that she remembered how she did it. Aviendha opened the Gateway but has no idea what she did other than that it wasn't the same weave as Egwene uses.

[Graf Ashaman]

First of all, I did not say Balefire was "lost" like gateways (sorry but here you can see what a "," can make a difference).

 

For balefire being researched by Vandene or Adeleas I don´t think so. I belief it was Verin since Verin studied the rod that was stolen by the Blacks from the White Tower that Verin wrote about as "producing balefire - almost uncontrollable and highly dangerous". Which implies that Verin had used the rod in the past and therefore knows balefire.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I'm not saying Moiraine learned Balefire from Vandene and Adelease. I'm saying she learned it around the time she was there. Most likely through a process of reverse engineering.

 

What is known about the Rod doesn't imply anything about Verin's knowledge, or lack there of, concerning Balefire. It is more likely the information came directly from the Tower's official records. Verin has never shown any real afinity for Ter'angreal, so it is unlikely that she would have studied any. She tried using the Tel'aran'rhiod Ring, but she already knew what it was for from having read Coriannin Nedeal's secret notes. Her attempt was more to study Tel'aran'rhiod than the Ring.

 

As a side note to people that theorize Verin = Coriannin, why would Verin think of Corrianin in the third person?