The Body Swap Theory - Updated. (Spoilers)

[wipe]

I'll just reply to Luckers answer to my post (as I'm in a dif. time zone- it's kind of difficult to keep a discussion going  :-\ ):

 

I see your point, but again- it is stated that those that wait in T'a'R are not dead like others are dead; or something like that. It certainly looks like a loophole to me. Ordinary women/men that die, go "somewhere" before being spun out again, while the Heros can actually interact whith the world in this state (like Birgitte did when she broke the rules, and if the horn of valere is blown- then they com out of T'a'R and fight- dead, yet alive  :))

[Luckers]

I'll just reply to Luckers answer to my post (as I'm in a dif. time zone- it's kind of difficult to keep a discussion going  :-\ ):

 

I see your point, but again- it is stated that those that wait in T'a'R are not dead like others are dead; or something like that. It certainly looks like a loophole to me. Ordinary women/men that die, go "somewhere" before being spun out again, while the Heros can actually interact whith the world in this state (like Birgitte did when she broke the rules, and if the horn of valere is blown- then they com out of T'a'R and fight- dead, yet alive  :))

 

Normal people go elsewhere, yet the ghosts and Kari show they still can touch the world from their place, therefore it is not so different from TAR--a place outside the normal world where the dead wait.

 

But irrespective of that the dead waiting in each place are described specifically to be dead--the heroes included. Every description is of 'calling dead heroes' to fight. The Horn doesn't restore them to life, and their state in TAR is death. Besides, I don't think you mean to make the point you have. If being in TAR constitutes Rand being alive after he dies then we have absolutely nothing to suggest that he'll come back at all, thus no evidence to sustain the TAR pulling scenario.

[DocBean]

So that's it. I know alot of you don't like the Body Swap. I don't really like it myself, but it fits. And, to date, it is the only one that does fit. But make of it what you will, and try not to rip into me too harshly. I'll cry.  ;D

 

It's not the only one that fits.

 

for one, you're being pretty literal.

Do you think that Rand had to be physically blind, for a "blind man standing on his own grave and weeping for what has been wrought" to be fulfilled?

why does Rand have to be physically dead, for dead yet lives to make since?

 

You're also discounting Balefire. Rand could very easily die, yet be brought back and live.

To Live you must Die might also mean, Rand must die in this age, yet will live in other ages.

 

If people see Rand die, then Rand comes back, wouldn't they say "But you're dead!"

Thomas fingering Jesus's wounds would be a parallel there. The Dreamers will believe he's dead yet lives.

 

How about this as another option:

Rand refuses to fight the Dark One and kill him. The Dark One only wanting to die gets ticked off and tries to compel Rand to do it.

Rand turns to Alivia and asks for death, she helps him sheath the Sword (Callendor) Plunging it into the heart, to capture their hearts.

Logain steps in and pulls Callendor. from the heart.

He then becomes the one to follow after, and seals up the Dark One.

Rand's body on a boat. {in my head I'm singing I'm on a boat}

Dark One then pushes Rand's soul back into his broken body.

Nyaneve heals him.

 

the end.

 

[wipe]

OK, Luckers you have me convinced, but I still doesn't come down to the bodyswap. I agree that it is the most likely theory, but I still hope for the T'a'R to fit somehow (or some other way we haven't thought of), because I just don't like the bodyswap.

[OptimusPrime]

I used to wonder if Rand would somehow end up in Logains body. Im defo sticking with Moridin now though, I think its a perfect outcome for the whole Dragon vs Nae'blis thread

[sonieb33]

about what bryguy299 said, would it be possible for Rand to die, but then when his soul returns to the Dream World like all the hero's of the Horn who die, to blast him back out to fight again, like what Moggy did to Brigitte?

 

Yes.  I think this became somewhat more likely after The Gathering Storm.  It's starting to become almost obligatory that Rand finds a way to survive, since he thinks about doing just that so often.  In this book, we are reminded that Nynaeve only has to see a weave once in order to remember it, and she was there when Moghedien ripped Birgitte out of Tel'aran'rhiod.  It was done with the Power:

 

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 34 - A Silver Arrow

 

Staggering on her feet, Birgitte fumbled another arrow from her quiver. "Go, Nynaeve!" It was a mumbling shout. "Get away!" Birgitte's head wavered, and the silver bow wobbled as she raised it.

 

  The glow around Moghedien increased until it seemed as if the blinding sun surrounded her.

 

  The night folded in over Birgitte like an ocean wave, enveloping her in blackness. When it passed, the bow dropped atop empty clothes as they collapsed. The clothes faded like fog burning off, and only the bow and arrows remained, shining in the moonlight.

 

  Moghedien sank to her knees, panting, clutching the protruding arrow shaft with both hands as the glow around her faded and died. Then she vanished, and the silver arrow fell where she had been, stained dark with blood.

Furthermore, this was only a bad thing when it was done to Birgitte because it disrupted her rebirth cycle.  Rand's wouldn't be disrupted at all.

 

Finally, there is a lot of foreshadowing in the books, that Nynaeve will find a way to 'Heal' death.  Having an actual weave to Heal death would be lame, as death and rebirth are a part of the way the world works, but this could easily be a special case scenario.

 

Ok, this just triggered something:

 

1. When "Silvie", aka Lanfear, meets Egwene in Tel'aran'rhiod in the stone, she tries to grab the twisted ring. I just thought that maybe Lanfear was just trying to get Egwene out of the dream or something because why would Lanfear want that ring? She's already one of the most, if not the most, talented at reaching and using Tel'aran'rhoid without any ter'angreal help. This always took me as somewhat strange.

 

2. In TGS, ch.25, Mesaana orders Sheriam to steal all of the dream ter'angreal saying that they had no right walking where the chosen walk.

 

3. Recall where the original came from - Verin gives it to Egwene and tells her that Corianin Nedeal kept it for fifty years, destroying all record of its existence.

 

There's something fishy about this/these ter'angreal in particular that:

A. Corianin would erase all record of the original's existence. Why would she do that to this particular ter'angreal? So she could use it? If she was truly a "dreamer" it seems it could easily be presumed that she didn't need any help to get into Tel'aran'rhoid, like Egwene. Why then? It would also stand to reason that if she was indeed a "dreamer" that she might have prophetic dreams, like Egwene, which may have led her to believe in a particular significance of that particular ter'angreal.

 

B. Elayne hasn't been able to reproduce the original exactly. She muses about the colors being important. The original has blue, brown and red; flecks AND stripes. The reproductions, from what I can tell, only have two colors and seem to have only flecks (although I haven't done exhaustive research into this; it's probably not an issue, but you never know).

 

C. The Forsaken seem to want them out of the hands of any non-Forsaken. Mesaana uses the excuse that they just shouldn't be allowed to go into Tel'aran'rhoid...but I'm thinking, why then, did Lanfear try to grab the one off of Egwene's neck? For the same reason maybe?? It's possible that they're really looking for the original...which may be missing.

 

I may be way off here but I'm not sure it's not possible.

 

Also, Verin had the book which contained all of Corianin Nedeal's notes on the ring and I assume she passed this on to Egwene before she died. Remember, Verin didn't give her the book when she gave her the ring. I'm sure that now it is included in the notes that she gave to Egwene.

 

The whereabouts of the original ring is unknown. The original was supposed to be among the ones that Sheriam took but one was missing; which is why Mesaana cut her finger off. Was the original the one that was missing? Who has it?

 

It's entirely possible that the man dying on the bed is a man who is sleeping and who's soul is strongly or entirely in Tel'aran'rhoid. I would think that it is possible that his body may be being kept alive, even barely, while his soul is in the dream world. I believe that what is happening between Rand and Moridin may have some similarity to the Luc/Isam link. The Luc/Isam link may help explain it anyway. They are two distinct people in the same body and somehow Tel'aran'rhoid has a lot to do with aiding or assisting or creating this link. Is Tel'aran'rhoid somewhere where souls can easily link and become one; yet not one in the same?

 

Either way, if any of this has any truth to it, the original ring is the only one strong enough to do anything like this, assuming it can at all. It's just an idea anyway.

 

 

 

 

[DocBean]

 

Ok, this just triggered something:

 

1. When "Silvie", aka Lanfear, meets Egwene in Tel'aran'rhiod in the stone, she tries to grab the twisted ring. I just thought that maybe Lanfear was just trying to get Egwene out of the dream or something because why would Lanfear want that ring? She's already one of the most, if not the most, talented at reaching and using Tel'aran'rhoid without any ter'angreal help. This always took me as somewhat strange.

 

2. In TGS, ch.25, Mesaana orders Sheriam to steal all of the dream ter'angreal saying that they had no right walking where the chosen walk.

 

3. Recall where the original came from - Verin gives it to Egwene and tells her that Corianin Nedeal kept it for fifty years, destroying all record of its existence.

 

There's something fishy about this/these ter'angreal in particular that:

A. Corianin would erase all record of the original's existence. Why would she do that to this particular ter'angreal? So she could use it? If she was truly a "dreamer" it seems it could easily be presumed that she didn't need any help to get into Tel'aran'rhoid, like Egwene. Why then? It would also stand to reason that if she was indeed a "dreamer" that she might have prophetic dreams, like Egwene, which may have led her to believe in a particular significance of that particular ter'angreal.

 

B. Elayne hasn't been able to reproduce the original exactly. She muses about the colors being important. The original has blue, brown and red; flecks AND stripes. The reproductions, from what I can tell, only have two colors and seem to have only flecks (although I haven't done exhaustive research into this; it's probably not an issue, but you never know).

 

C. The Forsaken seem to want them out of the hands of any non-Forsaken. Mesaana uses the excuse that they just shouldn't be allowed to go into Tel'aran'rhoid...but I'm thinking, why then, did Lanfear try to grab the one off of Egwene's neck? For the same reason maybe?? It's possible that they're really looking for the original...which may be missing.

 

I may be way off here but I'm not sure it's not possible.

 

Also, Verin had the book which contained all of Corianin Nedeal's notes on the ring and I assume she passed this on to Egwene before she died. Remember, Verin didn't give her the book when she gave her the ring. I'm sure that now it is included in the notes that she gave to Egwene.

 

The whereabouts of the original ring is unknown. The original was supposed to be among the ones that Sheriam took but one was missing; which is why Mesaana cut her finger off. Was the original the one that was missing? Who has it?

 

It's entirely possible that the man dying on the bed is a man who is sleeping and who's soul is strongly or entirely in Tel'aran'rhoid. I would think that it is possible that his body may be being kept alive, even barely, while his soul is in the dream world. I believe that what is happening between Rand and Moridin may have some similarity to the Luc/Isam link. The Luc/Isam link may help explain it anyway. They are two distinct people in the same body and somehow Tel'aran'rhoid has a lot to do with aiding or assisting or creating this link. Is Tel'aran'rhoid somewhere where souls can easily link and become one; yet not one in the same?

 

Either way, if any of this has any truth to it, the original ring is the only one strong enough to do anything like this, assuming it can at all. It's just an idea anyway.

 

 

This doesn't seem like the correct thread for this discussion.

It might be better in the Big Missed thing thread.

 

I thought Messana took the Original ring and all but one of the others.

Egwene said that Suin had a copy of the original safely hidden away.

Didn't Leane also have a copy when she was taken by the tower?

that would leave two copies out of the hands of the Forsaken.

 

 

 

[sonieb33]

This doesn't seem like the correct thread for this discussion.

It might be better in the Big Missed thing thread.

 

I thought Messana took the Original ring and all but one of the others.

Egwene said that Suin had a copy of the original safely hidden away.

Didn't Leane also have a copy when she was taken by the tower?

that would leave two copies out of the hands of the Forsaken.

 

I may have done something wrong with the way I replied, I'm not a regular on any forums by any means, so maybe I don't really know how to work it but I was replying to a comment in THIS discussion....so why would it be in the wrong thread? To me, it was directly related to the post which I quoted and at least one before it on the topic of Moridin and Rand swapping bodies.

 

I'm not sure how well you read my post...you missed my point although I thought I had made myself pretty clear.

 

First, the thread is about Rand and Moridin swapping bodies and I'm just offering a possible way that this might actually happen - thus my mention of Luc/Isam...two people who actually regularly share and swap bodies using Tel'aran'rhoid. I'm suggesting that maybe Rand might use the ring, since he's not a dreamwalker or a wolfbrother, to reach Tel'aran'rhoid and swap or unswap. 

 

Second, Siuan has a copy of the ring, not Leane, the Salidar AS thought Leane had it which is why Siuan got away with keeping it while Egwene was locked up. All of the copies are weak, which was my point. In TGS it CLEARLY states that the original ring was among those which was being kept by the Hall and MAY have been one which was taken by Sheriam and given to Mesaana. We do know that one was missing, which I also stated, but we do NOT know which one is missing...we can ASSUME it's the original but we don't KNOW that.