The Metaphysics of the Wheel

[mossman87]

Shai'tan's prison is everywhere, so just like T'A'R, everything outside the Wheel is everywhere, unfortunately I can't wrap my head around the physics of it so I can only say that redundant statement. :)

 

Week 8 Question: When a person that can channel is shielded, where is the shield placed? Is it placed around the whole body of the person or around the head of the channeler where they sense saidin/saidar? If you are shielded from the One Power, are you also shielded from the True Power? What happens if someone in a circle is shielded? Can a Warder feel that his Aes Sedai is shielded?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: A shield exists both as a barrier around the entire person and as a single point along with everything in between. (In a way, this is like the Bore, which does not actually exist as Shayol Ghul. The Bore exists everywhere, but Shayol Ghul is the place where it can best be detected. Which is not to say that there is any connection between the Bore and a shield. Both simply exist in different states simultaneously.) Someone who is shielded and trying to get past the shield can "feel" their way along its inner "surface" hunting for weaknesses, such as the points that indicate where the shield is being maintained or has been tied off. Shielding against the One Power will indeed stop someone from reaching for the True Power.

 

Matt: Ok, so, what is then the nature of the Dark One’s relationship with the True Power? In other words...is he the Power or it is separate like the One Power?

Brandon: When people bored into his prison they were searching for a new source of power, they found him. Alright? Now, that leaves a strong implication that the True Power is the essence of the Dark One. The True Power when it is used rips apart the Pattern to rebuild it as it desires. The True Power is very destructive to the Pattern.

 

I've always figured the True Power was the essence of Shai'tan, I mentally picture the Bore being like a hole carved through the real world Pattern barrier into T'A'R, except it's into the prison, but really both seem to have the same properties.  There may be many Wheels, with many mirror worlds, with T'A'R' inbetween all of them, and then the essences of the Creator and Shai'tan outside all of THAT, but I don't want to wrap my head around it that far, gives me a headache.

 

As to why it took so long to do something about the hole that was drilled, the Pattern doesn't view things in a Good vs Bad way, Darkfriends are the same as Galad to it.  There needs to be a Shai'tan to exist, and the belief of him, for balance to be maintained, and I don't feel the Shadow had the balance tipped in their favor enough until the seals weakened enough that the Pattern had to react, which is where our story begins.

 

Edit:  Luckily we'll probably never know about multiple Wheels, or at least until the Encyclopedia:

 

Matt: Yeah, that’s...are there many Wheels or just one Wheel?

Brandon: That’s not a question, I’m afraid, that I can answer because I don’t think it’s within the scope of the books, and I don’t think that the characters...that there are people that could know. You will find Browns arguing all of these different things among themselves, and it’s not my place to step in and end the discussion.

[jemron]

There is evidence of this.  That place where Rand goes during his dreams has a strange sky (probably looking outside of the pattern where the DO is imprisoned).  In TGS, something that stood out to me was that when Rand tried to touch the OP to get away from his dream with Moridin, it felt "far away" and seemed to "pull at him from a distance" or something like that.  It pulled him away/out of the dream.  That sounds like "outside of the pattern" to me.

 

Great catch!  So Rand might have been meeting Moridin inside of the Bore!  Interesting...

 

In my opinion they were not meeting in/at the Bore, but in a place outside of the Pattern, similar to where the DO's prison is.  It is my opinion (and I think it has been stated as fact in the books) that the Bore is not the same as the DO's prison.  The Bore is where reality (the world of Randland and the Pattern) meets with "the universe" or the place "outside of the Pattern" where the DO's prison is.  The Bore is where these two "converge."  If I understand correctly, the Bore was made in the Pattern (a hole "bored" into/through the Pattern), not in the prison.  It is just through that hole in the pattern that the DO's prison can "touch" or influence the world.  Maybe it is through that same hole that people like Rand or Moridin/Ishy can dream themselves.  If the Bore didn't exist, could Rand and/or Moridin even go to that place with the strange sky?

 

With these thoughts, it just occurred to me that maybe the DO isn't in a "prison" so much as he is just kept away from influencing/touching the Wheel and the Pattern by some sort of "barrier."  Maybe he lives/flies/exists freely out in the universe, and the "Prison" as we understand it is just some sort of barrier or limitation that is put around reality (the Pattern) to prevent him from meddling.  Could it be that the Creator is similarly "imprisoned"?  He can't meddle, because he is blocked from the Barrier as well?  hmm...  An interesting thought.

 

I like this discussion.

[mossman87]

There is evidence of this.  That place where Rand goes during his dreams has a strange sky (probably looking outside of the pattern where the DO is imprisoned).  In TGS, something that stood out to me was that when Rand tried to touch the OP to get away from his dream with Moridin, it felt "far away" and seemed to "pull at him from a distance" or something like that.  It pulled him away/out of the dream.  That sounds like "outside of the pattern" to me.

 

Great catch!  So Rand might have been meeting Moridin inside of the Bore!  Interesting...

 

In my opinion they were not meeting in/at the Bore, but in a place outside of the Pattern, similar to where the DO's prison is.  It is my opinion (and I think it has been stated as fact in the books) that the Bore is not the same as the DO's prison.  The Bore is where reality (the world of Randland and the Pattern) meets with "the universe" or the place "outside of the Pattern" where the DO's prison is.  The Bore is where these two "converge."  If I understand correctly, the Bore was made in the Pattern (a hole "bored" into/through the Pattern), not in the prison.  It is just through that hole in the pattern that the DO's prison can "touch" or influence the world.  Maybe it is through that same hole that people like Rand or Moridin/Ishy can dream themselves.  If the Bore didn't exist, could Rand and/or Moridin even go to that place with the strange sky?

 

With these thoughts, it just occurred to me that maybe the DO isn't in a "prison" so much as he is just kept away from influencing/touching the Wheel and the Pattern by some sort of "barrier."  Maybe he lives/flies/exists freely out in the universe, and the "Prison" as we understand it is just some sort of barrier or limitation that is put around reality (the Pattern) to prevent him from meddling.  Could it be that the Creator is similarly "imprisoned"?  He can't meddle, because he is blocked from the Barrier as well?  hmm...  An interesting thought.

 

I like this discussion.

 

That's how I always understood it with the Dark One, but we'll never know until we're told unfortunately.  I personally believe the barrier to be the Pattern itself, and when they drilled into wherever Shai'tan (True Power) was, imprisoned or not, it was probably some form of a gateway into another land like a gateway made to T'A'R in the flesh.  Think of our universe then what is outside of it that it's able to expand everyday, what is it expanding into?  who knows. :)

 

My post was just mainly to mention how ta'veren and heroes of the horn aren't Lightfriends, because to the Pattern there is no "Good" or "Evil", it just keeps a balance, if it has to have a million people die to bring things back to balance then it will.  BS has even said the Pattern could make a Forsaken or DF a ta'veren if it'd help bring balance back, but since Shai'tan seems to be more hands-on than the Creator it'd probably never happen.

 

The intentions of the Gods I dunno, maybe the Creator finds the whole thing a game, RJ's called it a game before.  Maybe Shai'tan isn't a God, but an ancient evil like Mordeth, and was sealed away in a different age.  RJ has said not to believe many of the beliefs of the people in the books, even if it's the most obvious.

[Aust]

Really interesting thoughts presented through this thread! All these ideas posted here have got me thinking:

 

In trying to get my head around the nature of the Wheel/DO/Creator in this series, I always thought back to the nature of things before the bore was drilled in the AoL. I think that gives some clues to the nature of the Creator and the DO and their harmony. I'm extrapolating here from bits in the book I recall referencing the AoL (and please correct me if I'm wrong!) - but from what I remember there was a distinct lack of aggression and violence in people before the bore was drilled - to the extent that harming others didn't even occur to people. But at the same time, they had the 'Calma' trees and the Aiel with their Way of the Leaf - seems like these were forces designed to promote the prerogative of the Light, and maybe the Light was too far out of balance? So far out of balance it was as wrong as the act of drilling the bore into the DO's prison? I don't think that the absence of the DO would actually equate to utopia. If the light was indeed this far out of balance, then maybe Lanfear's initial drilling was the wheel trying to nudge things back into the proper balance proportionate to how far off it was. I think the drilling of the bore may have been an unprecedented event in all the ages - I don't think the DO ever had as much influence as gained via the bore, but the light had preceded this with an imbalance of its own making.

 

After the bore was drilled and the DO's influence began seeping out, people gradually became more violent and destructive, and selfish tendencies began to flourish - thus evidence of the nature of the DO (I think further example of the dark one's nature can be drawn from Graendal's drastic changes after the bore was drilled). As the DO's influence increased over time, certain individuals were more attracted to this and went over to the dark side... but this influence even affected people aligned with the light too. And then eventually, the Shadow tipped the scale too far and the universe demanded that the balance be restored - and a cataclysm was needed to 'reset' things, after first the light and then the shadow had gotten so off scale.

 

I suppose the question then becomes what a 'balance' between the light and the shadow actually looks like? It seems that things see-saw back and forth between extremes, and maybe the pattern then is the product of the influence of the light and the shadow cyclically pushing against each other from one extreme to another. In this sense, then perhaps both the DO and the Creator both were sealed outside of the pattern at the moment of creation (assuming there was a start point) and the pattern is created out of their rhythmic clashing, and perhaps these clashes get stronger with every cycle escalating towards the last battle. I think that with the Last Battle, the very nature of reality will be forever changed - the victor of the last battle will create a new counterpoint, and a new Wheel and new Pattern will emerge with the two protagonists once again outside of things but forever competing for dominance. I would not be surprised to see channeling go away after the last battle. I also wonder if the DO only became sentient after the bore was drilled?

 

Anyhow, just my rambling thoughts on the topic ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Violence and aggression were not wholly absent from people before the Collapse. If we look at the back stories of some of the Chosen, we see that Balthamel, for one, was not exactly a nice person, and nor was Semi. Binders, such as the Oath Rod, were used as punishments, including violent offenders. Things might have been better then, but human nature was the same. There was still violence and conflict, just not as much. Also, I think you mean chora trees, not calma.

[maradon]

Personally I believe that there is no reason the DO can't be destroyed, it will just require the pattern to do something else to resolve the balance, i.e. spinning out a ta'veren. We hear from Rand that he can go against the will of the pattern, only the longer he does it the more drastically he needs to be pulled back into line by the pattern. So it is possible to go against the pattern, it's just the reprocutions may be more extreeme for doing so.

 

I like the idea of light and dark constantly crashing against each other and swinging from periods of dominance in an instable way, i.e. each imbalance is larger than the last. This would support the theory of a total victory at some point for either the light or dark. The spinning out of Padan Fain is most likely to be the correction factor for when the DO is destroyed at the end of this age.

[Mr Ares]

Bear in mind that Shai'tan is outside the Pattern. Not a part of it.

[mossman87]

RJ has said before what he felt the Creator and DO relationship was kind of like, but who knows if that's really how it is or just what it appears to be, so that's why I never posted it.

 

If you're interested in it at all look up Manichaeism on wikipedia.  On the surface it looks like it'd work, but we'll never know how much of that religion he incorporated, if any at all.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism

 

Martin Reznick asks: How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.? 

RJ: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator carrying on the theme, the yin yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books... it's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

 

It's interesting but mostly speculation.

[lrbenson]

So it's more of a balance issue than an HP Lovecraft ancient evil of doom?  Interesting.  I think the end result of Padan Fain will solve a lot of the questions we have here. 

 

If you think about it though, the Pattern has been off-balance since the Age of Legends.  I don't think the AoL was Light-intensive, I think it was actually balanced.  There's been nothing but DO influence since then.  And here's a thought, how can the Pattern EVER be tipped towards the Light?  It's neutral, so it wouldn't tip towards the light on it's own, and the Creator doesn't interfere.

 

Maybe it's like a wobble effect, where the DO grabs it initially, then is forced to let go, so it swings to the other side?  Doesn't that mean it should be more Light-intensive then ever after the LB?  Also, you could argue then that the DO can be killed, or at least be permanently shut of the pattern, if on the back swing the Pattern "tips" over by going too far. 

 

 

[mossman87]

So it's more of a balance issue than an HP Lovecraft ancient evil of doom?  Interesting.  I think the end result of Padan Fain will solve a lot of the questions we have here.  

 

If you think about it though, the Pattern has been off-balance since the Age of Legends.  I don't think the AoL was Light-intensive, I think it was actually balanced.  There's been nothing but DO influence since then.  And here's a thought, how can the Pattern EVER be tipped towards the Light?  It's neutral, so it wouldn't tip towards the light on it's own, and the Creator doesn't interfere.

 

Maybe it's like a wobble effect, where the DO grabs it initially, then is forced to let go, so it swings to the other side?  Doesn't that mean it should be more Light-intensive then ever after the LB?  Also, you could argue then that the DO can be killed, or at least be permanently shut of the pattern, if on the back swing the Pattern "tips" over by going too far.  

 

 

 

The Pattern is neutral, so think of this as the balance between Order and Destruction, and not in terms of Light and Dark.

 

Since it's neutral, and in effect a supercomputer, it doesn't see things in Good or Bad.  Think of binary code, computers only see 0s and 1s, it's us humans that put defining things onto those combinations of 1s and 0s.

 

When the Prison was bored into there was a ton of Destruction, obviously, so the Pattern had LTT and whoever else was made Heroes and Ta'varen try and fix it.  It didn't work, only patched him, and things went to hell, dying channelers and such.. but think of it in the Pattern's terms, how much destruction was there to the actual Pattern?  Not much, just humans killing themselves, mountains changed, but those things are all just threads in itself, it has no "Good" or "Evil" attached.

 

Now all the balefire stuff in the War of Power was definitely bad, and I don't want to say it was the Pattern that made everyone quit using it, but technically it was.

 

In the end, it really seems to be like a game, the Pattern maps out all the millions of different possibilities (Mirror Worlds), it knows what's happening already, and RJ has said the Creator won't interfere because humans need to learn on their own.

And what needs learned is what Rand learned on Dragonmount, I think.

 

Personally I definitely understand where Moridin is coming from, he and Rand have been tied in this game and has no say in it, guess that means I'd join the shadow.  :)

 

RJ has said there is a normal afterlife as well, so the religious parallels are all there.

 

Edit: Also, not even the Forsaken are outside the Pattern, only the Creator and the Dark One.

[Aust]

Violence and aggression were not wholly absent from people before the Collapse. If we look at the back stories of some of the Chosen, we see that Balthamel, for one, was not exactly a nice person, and nor was Semi. Binders, such as the Oath Rod, were used as punishments, including violent offenders. Things might have been better then, but human nature was the same. There was still violence and conflict, just not as much. Also, I think you mean chora trees, not calma.

 

haha you are right about the trees thank you!

 

For some reason I had thought Semhirage had not started torturing people until after the bore had been drilled... but I could completely have my timelines wrong. You make a very good point though in that the Binders were around to control violent offenders so things may not have been so Utopian as I surmised.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

I wonder why the Wheel would spin out people who would be explicitly driven to commit acts (such as bore-drilling) which would then require boatloads of subsequent intervention in the Pattern. Seems as though the Wheel is making busywork for itself. Maybe the Wheel thrives on that. If Mierin hadn't felt compelled to surmount an obvious disparity between the sexes, there would have been neither Dragon nor Heart of the Dark. Lews Therin and Elan Morin could have died peacefully in the old folks' home together.

 

"I tells ya, reality is without meaning."

"What's that? Speak up!"

"I said 'reality is without meaning'!"

"Bah, you've been saying that for 657 years."

"One of these days, I'll be proven right somehow."

"Go eat yer prunes, Elan! There's yer meaning."

 

I've also wondered about the sexual disparity itself. RJ left no doubt as to the fact that males get the better deal in the One Power (at least at the individual level), but that same division of Saidin and Saidar does not exist in the True Power. That's metaphysically unsettling. The Creator and the Dark One are supposed to be equal opposites. If the One Power imposes segregation on the sexes, why doesn't the True Power? And what is the purpose of the sexual disparities in the One Power? In the real world, sex differences have an evolutionary explanation, but the Wheel is purely RJ's creation. I wonder what his intent was. Do you suppose he was trying, in his own way, to extend real-world biology into his magic system? Or do you suppose he was expressing some kind of personal ideal?

 

Either way, you've got to feel sorry for Mierin. She gets born into an eternally recurring universe, filled with her own desires (as we all are), which turn out to be impossible, and is doomed by fate to instead unleash the Shadow into the world...every time. Yet if you buy the argument that the Wheel thrives on these kinds of individuals to keep turning (and why else would such an enormously destructive individual be permitted to enter the Pattern in the first place?), it would seem like the Wheel needs her a lot more than she needs it. It's a crummy deal. No wonder she's only in business for herself. She's justified. I'd want to overthrow the Creator and Dark One too.

[ed2funy]

I wonder why the Wheel would spin out people who would be explicitly driven to commit acts (such as bore-drilling) which would then require boatloads of subsequent intervention in the Pattern. Seems as though the Wheel is making busywork for itself. Maybe the Wheel thrives on that. If Mierin hadn't felt compelled to surmount an obvious disparity between the sexes, there would have been neither Dragon nor Heart of the Dark. Lews Therin and Elan Morin could have died peacefully in the old folks' home together.

 

............

 

Either way, you've got to feel sorry for Mierin. She gets born into an eternally recurring universe, filled with her own desires (as we all are), which turn out to be impossible, and is doomed by fate to instead unleash the Shadow into the world...every time. Yet if you buy the argument that the Wheel thrives on these kinds of individuals to keep turning (and why else would such an enormously destructive individual be permitted to enter the Pattern in the first place?), it would seem like the Wheel needs her a lot more than she needs it. It's a crummy deal. No wonder she's only in business for herself. She's justified. I'd want to overthrow the Creator and Dark One too.

 

I don't think the people get reborn with any drive to do anything (except those bound to the Wheel like Birgitte, who is compelled to seek out Gaidal...)

 

They are born, but people have their own desires...it is our job to learn from others about what mistakes we shouldn't make...

[Mr Ares]

I wonder why the Wheel would spin out people who would be explicitly driven to commit acts (such as bore-drilling) which would then require boatloads of subsequent intervention in the Pattern. Seems as though the Wheel is making busywork for itself. Maybe the Wheel thrives on that. If Mierin hadn't felt compelled to surmount an obvious disparity between the sexes, there would have been neither Dragon nor Heart of the Dark. Lews Therin and Elan Morin could have died peacefully in the old folks' home together.

What disparity between the sexes? And the Wheel doesn't have to spin out people specifically to do this job. It's a matter of human nature. Lanfear cares about power. There are always people who care about power, and she seized an opportunity to get power. The Pattern didn't make her like that, it didn't make her choice for her. She chose her own path.

 

I've also wondered about the sexual disparity itself. RJ left no doubt as to the fact that males get the better deal in the One Power (at least at the individual level), but that same division of Saidin and Saidar does not exist in the True Power.

RJ did not leave us in no doubt that men get the better deal. He went to some pains to point out that while they got different deals, you can't really say one is better than the other. One has strengths where the other weakesses, and vice versa. Men have greater raw strength, but women are more dextrous in their weaving, which works out the same. There isn't really anything the strongest man could do that would be beyond the strongest woman. And the greatest feats were accomplished by working together.

[cleantoe]

I have a question.

 

Is the Creator / Dark One relationship specific to only the planet that Randland is on, or do they share this relationship throughout the entire universe? If so, does that mean that the Creator is in one dimension and the DO is in another dimension and an infinitesimally large "pattern" or layer stretching in all directions that separates the two?

 

Would any other planets have to deal with the Dark One, or is it just Rand's planet that has the unfortunate coincidence/responsibility of being in the one place in the entire universe where the Dark One has some power over the pattern.

 

Can Heroes be spit out on other planets? :P

[mossman87]

I have a question.

 

Is the Creator / Dark One relationship specific to only the planet that Randland is on, or do they share this relationship throughout the entire universe? If so, does that mean that the Creator is in one dimension and the DO is in another dimension and an infinitesimally large "pattern" or layer stretching in all directions that separates the two?

 

Would any other planets have to deal with the Dark One, or is it just Rand's planet that has the unfortunate coincidence/responsibility of being in the one place in the entire universe where the Dark One has some power over the pattern.

 

Can Heroes be spit out on other planets? :P

 

Big questions, I don't think we'll know.  Brandon said the discussion of there being more Wheels are out of the scope of these books, so I dunno if we'll ever find out.  I have my ideas but it's all just speculation.

 

Also to a few posts above, I don't believe the Pattern makes people do everything, like the Bore drilling, that was a human mistake, brought on by the temptation of the DO's Power who is outside the Pattern's touch, and the Pattern set forth corrective measures to fix it afterwards, doesn't mean the measures work, and in the end humanity failed and they must learn from that.

[Dunderdan]

Can Heroes be spit out on other planets? :P

 

Id assume there are no other inhabited planets in the wot universe since it would really screw up the main focus of the story if there were. Kinda like "and JUST as the DO were about to kill the world as we know it, aliens landed and zapped him out of existence". Epic story fail. And having satellite off world habitats somewhere doesnt really fit well with the wot idea, does it. Of course, its possible the parallell/portal worlds are in fact situated on other planets, but imo, that wouldnt really add anything beneficial to the story. Being parallell/portalled is enough in itself, we dont need to add the fact that theres a simple physical distance to those worlds as well.

 

Then again, what do I know :)

 

[mossman87]

Can Heroes be spit out on other planets? :P

 

Id assume there are no other inhabited planets in the wot universe since it would really screw up the main focus of the story if there were. Kinda like "and JUST as the DO were about to kill the world as we know it, aliens landed and zapped him out of existence". Epic story fail. And having satellite off world habitats somewhere doesnt really fit well with the wot idea, does it. Of course, its possible the parallell/portal worlds are in fact situated on other planets, but imo, that wouldnt really add anything beneficial to the story. Being parallell/portalled is enough in itself, we dont need to add the fact that theres a simple physical distance to those worlds as well.

 

Then again, what do I know :)

 

 

We know of different worlds, the Ogier are from some different planet or plane of existence, and the Finn have souls and are on a Parallel World, not a Mirror World, so that would have to mean there are other inhabitable planets, even if they're in the same plane of existence, they're still different worlds.

 

I did just wake up though with a monster Monday Night Football hangover, so apologies if this makes no sense at the moment.

[Dunderdan]

'plane of existence' and 'parallell worlds' might as well be situated in other dimensions. Or similar. Making them part of the ordinary, physical universe seems a bit... unnecessary, to me. But its certainly possible. I just hope RJ/BS dont go down that path.

 

[mossman87]

'plane of existence' and 'parallell worlds' might as well be situated in other dimensions. Or similar. Making them part of the ordinary, physical universe seems a bit... unnecessary, to me. But its certainly possible. I just hope RJ/BS dont go down that path.

 

 

I think the Finn are in a different universe, the question is if different universes fit in the same Wheel, or could you say each universe is it's own Wheel?  Given how the Finn operate they have a connection to Randland in some way to be able to read the Pattern and have the ter'angreal necessary to give to the people who visit them.

 

Pretty sure we'll find out a lot in the next book.  These quotes are fun to speculate over:

 

Matt: Ok, so that being said there are some theories out there that in the Age of Legends, at one point, Lanfear might have…

Brandon: ...let’s just say I have not said that Lanfear and Cyndane are the same person.

Matt: Oh, absolutely, I’m jumping to this other Forsaken that we are talking about…

Brandon: …this other completely different person…Uh huh…

Matt: …so Lanfear, the theory goes, that maybe she was accentuated from a beauty and/or Power perspective by going to the 'Finnland previously.

Brandon: Okay.

Matt: Would the 'Finns have the ability to accentuate someone’s beauty and/or quantity or access to the One Power through their own capabilities and talents?

Brandon: Yes, but it might involve third party ter’angreal, angreal, this sort of thing.

Matt: So, they don’t have power to affect the soul’s capability of increasing its total channeling?

Brandon: Certainly not permanently; as far I understand, that is outside the realm of their ability.

Matt: From a beauty perspective can they affect the outer body of some individual?

Brandon: I would say that, yes they can, but they may have to be using some type of ter’angreal or…

Matt: …some item of Power?

Brandon: Some item of Power, something like that…of which they have great stores…

[what???]

Matt: Really?  Heh, so the obvious question, where did the 'Finns get great stores of ter’angreal, angreal, and is that part of the Pact they made?

Brandon: RAFO…but if you just think about it, we don’t even have to go to the notes for this if you think about it logically, we know of them providing certain items of Power to certain individuals that they were able to match very nicely with certain requests very easily. If you run the statistics on that, it's either a huge coincidence or they have very many to choose from.

Matt: So, how many Finns are there?

Brandon: RAFO. I’m going to RAFO a lot of 'Finn stuff just so you know.

 

WinespringBrother: Does the physical location of the world of 'Finns have anything to do with the bells ringing when the ta'veren were in together?

Jordan: No.

WinespringBrother: Have the 'Finns existed as long as the Wheel?

Jordan: Yes.

WinespringBrother: Do they have souls?

Jordan: Yes.

WinespringBrother: Are the 'Finns from human stock?

Jordan: No.

WinespringBrother: Did they originate in their current location?

Jordan: Yes.

WinespringBrother: Are they related to Tel'aran'rhiod or do they control Tel'aran'rhiod?

Jordan: No.

[cleantoe]

Can Heroes be spit out on other planets? :P

 

Id assume there are no other inhabited planets in the wot universe since it would really screw up the main focus of the story if there were. Kinda like "and JUST as the DO were about to kill the world as we know it, aliens landed and zapped him out of existence". Epic story fail. And having satellite off world habitats somewhere doesnt really fit well with the wot idea, does it. Of course, its possible the parallell/portal worlds are in fact situated on other planets, but imo, that wouldnt really add anything beneficial to the story. Being parallell/portalled is enough in itself, we dont need to add the fact that theres a simple physical distance to those worlds as well.

 

Then again, what do I know :)

 

 

But isn't RJ a fan of physics or something like that, or at least semi-accurate when it comes to science? How would ONE planet even exist if it wasn't set in a universe, and if it is set in a universe, how can one explain the infinitesimally small chance that there is NO life in an infinitely expanding universe?

 

Also, isn't Randland supposed to be basically Earth or modeled after it in many respects? Also, Randland has a moon, right? Ergo they must be in a universe. It goes to follow that in an infinitely expanding universe, there must be other life out there.

 

I myself am more in belief that the pattern is weakest in Randland by an amazing coincidence and the DO has his best chance of concentrating there to break free.

 

Otherwise, it just makes NO sense whatsoever.

 

Obviously, our understanding of physics also applies to their world (if you make an exception to the idea of a Pattern and channeling). If they are governed by our physics, then they must be based in our universe which is also governed by our physics.

[mossman87]

Can Heroes be spit out on other planets? :P

 

Id assume there are no other inhabited planets in the wot universe since it would really screw up the main focus of the story if there were. Kinda like "and JUST as the DO were about to kill the world as we know it, aliens landed and zapped him out of existence". Epic story fail. And having satellite off world habitats somewhere doesnt really fit well with the wot idea, does it. Of course, its possible the parallell/portal worlds are in fact situated on other planets, but imo, that wouldnt really add anything beneficial to the story. Being parallell/portalled is enough in itself, we dont need to add the fact that theres a simple physical distance to those worlds as well.

 

Then again, what do I know :)

 

 

But isn't RJ a fan of physics or something like that, or at least semi-accurate when it comes to science? How would ONE planet even exist if it wasn't set in a universe, and if it is set in a universe, how can one explain the infinitesimally small chance that there is NO life in an infinitely expanding universe?

 

Also, isn't Randland supposed to be basically Earth or modeled after it in many respects? Also, Randland has a moon, right? Ergo they must be in a universe. It goes to follow that in an infinitely expanding universe, there must be other life out there.

 

I myself am more in belief that the pattern is weakest in Randland by an amazing coincidence and the DO has his best chance of concentrating there to break free.

 

Otherwise, it just makes NO sense whatsoever.

 

Obviously, our understanding of physics also applies to their world (if you make an exception to the idea of a Pattern and channeling). If they are governed by our physics, then they must be based in our universe which is also governed by our physics.

 

There is definitely a universe, powered by the True Source.

 

RJ has said if you want to look at the universe / True Source in a physics way it'd be closest to quantum physics.

[accelerate]

Random question (not sure if this has been asked before):

 

Is everything that an individual is -- your soul, your memories, your personality -- in a thread of the pattern itself? Or if not, is it just your soul that's in the Pattern?

 

I'm asking because I'm wondering how memory transfer is done, especially in the case of the Forsaken and those that were given a 1-up mushroom. You accumulate memories in your physical brain, yeah? And when you die, do all those memories get uploaded into the Pattern? When the DO rezzes him or her, are the memories then downloaded into the new body?

 

Or am I misunderstanding what the Pattern actually is?

[ed2funy]

I thought it was that you had a soul and a thread...

your thread is pretty much your life...

 

but your soul stays....

 

as for memories...

just let it be....lol...don't get too technical...

[jemron]

I guess I always imagined that there are various planets and that the True Source "powers" the Universe, but I always imagined that the Wheel of Time as we know it is bound to the planet (earth) on which the books take place.  All threads that are used and reused (recycled) by the Wheel of Time are all bound to earth (the planet of Randland).  I don't think they go to other planets.  I got the impression that the general belief of the people is that the Creator used the True Source (the One Power) to build the earth and the Wheel of Time (and presumably the threads or people of the earth) and then he left to go on building other worlds/planets/people throughout the Universe, and he doesn't stick around to "help out."  Personally, I think this is a false belief, and the Creator does watch over his creations, and maybe even helps out here and there, but I think the people believe he doesn't get involved.  That's whey he spoke to Rand at the end of EotW, IMO.  To say, "Not yet."  He is watching.