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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

The Metaphysics of the Wheel


Luckers

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I think that the Dark One is actually a big green floating face controlled by Bran al'Vere who's standing behind a curtain. At the conclusion of TG, Rand will click his heals together 3 times and wake up back in the Two Rivers. Bashere, Moridin, and Logain will be his uncles.

 

Or maybe Bela is the Creator and has just been sittin' back watching the whole time ready to unveil the depths of exactly what's been happening.

 

As far as "killing the DO", I don't think this is possible. My guess is that DO and Creator are actually synonymous. Kinda the whole Trimurti thing. DO is the Shiva aspect of God, the Creator is the Vishnu aspect and yada yada. I don't think they're separable.

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So you're saying the opposite of a sentient being that wants to destroy everything is a non-sentient being that randomly creates stuff?

 

If anything the Creator is a Deist type of being. He created everything, wound the toy up, and then left.

 

Still doesn't explain where the Pattern comes from though, nor why it's purpose is to bring order.

 

 

Don't know if anyone mentioned this:

 

I at first thought the Creator did this....made everything...then let it run...I have always thought if the DO did get free the Creator would then and only then step in...

 

But, perhaps the Creator left....but no in the sense we think....

I don't think he created the DO, it never says that anywhere (does it?).

But, he created the Wheel to keep the balance and the DO at bay...

the Creator IS the Wheel.....

 

Just a whacky theory.....

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Theoryland:

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

 

Kurafire: And the rest of the Shadowspawn?

RJ: What? Do they have souls you mean?

Kurafire: Yeah, and how do their threads work?

RJ: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are a part of that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

 

 

 

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Same source (=Theoryland):

Compuserve chat June 1996 ("the latest CIS chat")

 

 

Martin Reznick asks: How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?  

RJ: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator carrying on the theme, the yin yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books... it's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

 

 

East of the Sun Con, Stockholm, Sweden 17 June 1995 - Helena Löfgren interview

 

On the question of the "alignment" of the characters, he said that there are no completely good character in the books, as he thought such a character would be completely boring, and would probably be killed rather quickly, like other fully good persons in the world. He took Jesus as example of this. Instead, every person struggles with the good and bad sides of his/her personality. Another point he pressed was that "no one's going to rescue you", there are not going to happen any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfere. Humankind messed things up, and has to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves.

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thanks....

i am so bored right now...there is no one on...

I just might read it now.....

 

nah...ima just get off the computer for now....but thanks for the link.  :)

 

(no comment on the not so hidden, not so subtle, not so funny, not so cool use of your name? fter all of m hard work?  :'( :'(

 

 

lol

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(no comment on the not so hidden, not so subtle, not so funny, not so cool use of your name? fter all of m hard work?  :'( :'(

 

 

lol

Hmm... I'm swedish and chose the name "Nightstrike" because it was short and sounded cool (at that time, at least) to my inexperienced ears. I had to come up with something... :-[

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look at it this way. If the DO's only goal was to destroy existence itself, i.e. the pattern and everything, then he is in fact not an entity himself, rather a massive destructive force with no motive or personality or capability

 

a) as mentioned according to the catechism the do exists outside w/o "structure" the pattern has his "reality" is separate although connected (how?) w/ the one that exists within the pattern

 

b) i dont think reading the do as a personification of entropy is invalid *shrug*

 

Within the analogy of the pattern to describe time then we must accept a few thing within reason, first that there are threads and second that there is movement.

 

i wonder how age of legends (meta)physicists felt about four dimensionalism?  if the do is freed in one age is freed in all of them lol tbrr i'll accept the first because its just so much part of the series but i don't think we have to accept the second

 

all ages are happening right now &c but i'm not up to parsing the logic of this right now

 

 

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(no comment on the not so hidden, not so subtle, not so funny, not so cool use of your name? fter all of m hard work?  :'( :'(

 

 

lol

Hmm... I'm swedish and chose the name "Nightstrike" because it was short and sounded cool (at that time, at least) to my inexperienced ears. I had to come up with something... :-[

 

 

lol....it is a good name....

i mean come on...look at mine!

 

:o

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Within the analogy of the pattern to describe time then we must accept a few thing within reason, first that there are threads and second that there is movement.

 

i wonder how age of legends (meta)physicists felt about four dimensionalism?  if the do is freed in one age is freed in all of them lol tbrr i'll accept the first because its just so much part of the series but i don't think we have to accept the second

 

all ages are happening right now &c but i'm not up to parsing the logic of this right now

 

 

 

Without movement then there is no wheel everything would be frozen, saying that, no change = no pattern proving the need of movement.  Now with the DO and Creator outside the pattern as stated in an eariler post from theoryland then they would exist in all ages without question.  The idea of the Möbius strip represeting all ages is that they are all the same age strip exsiting at once yet looping around each other.

 

 

MobiusSnail2B.png

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Alright guys, longtime lurker, only have posted a couple times.  

 

After a couple of beers and a plane being delayed last night, giving me a couple hours to think after finishing the book for the 3rd time, I've come up with a theory involving how the pattern works, and what we know so far.

 

What I think is this, that we're all thinking of how Rand has to remake, or close, the Bore.  I think Rand has to figure out what object or person is keeping it open.  

 

So the Pattern is a giant wheel of self healing cloth.  Trapped behind, or beneath, the Pattern, is the Dark One and he wants out. This is something that we know.  We've also seen how the Pattern can heal itself.  Through the use of Ta'averen, The Dragon, even the bowing and warping of the world.  So we also can surmise that the Pattern has a self-correcting, and healing mechanism.  So take that, and then ask yourself "what is the Bore?".  Well it was a conduit drilled through the Pattern to access the power of the Dark One.  So why has that conduit never been healed by the pattern, like Balefire?  Why has a ta'averen never come along and just closed it up?  Why did Athur Hawking not strike at the Bore, instead of attacking Shara and sending fleets across the world?  Seems like this is something the Pattern would have wanted to do.

 

So, now we can guess that something is actively keeping the Bore open.  It's acting like a spike that is drilled through the Pattern.  Now what I'm guessing is that the Dark One only has to fight a defensive battle to win.  If you imagine a stationary spike driven through that same wheel of cloth, what is going to happen to the wheel as it keeps turning farther and farther?  It's going to rip farther and farther apart.

 

Now that's where Lews Therin and the seals came in.  The Dark One wanted to force himself through the rip in the Pattern, but Lews Therin had to do two things simultaneously.  He held the Dark One back with Saidin, tainting it, while connecting the tear in the Pattern with the seals.  So the tear is still there, it just has... stitches, in a way.  The probelm is the spike is still there, tearing the gash wider and wider, because as the Wheel is turning against the spike, or Bore, it is actually hurting itself.  

 

Which leads me to the explanations of 2 more things.  The first of which is the decay of the seals.  It can be assumed that the Dark One is tainting the seals somehow.  This is partially true.  I argue that it's a result of the tear getting wider, and that the seals are not being corrupted willfully, but are actually falling "outside" of the Pattern.  This is consistent with cuellindar being able to be defeated by the True Power, since, it is also a power outside of the Pattern.

 

Lastly, it also explains some of the unique characteristics of the Blight.  Interesting that the Bore is always thought to be at Shayol Ghul, which is surrounded by the Blight.

 

 

Now, the Blight is usually thought of as a Mordor base like area for the Dark One, where it's just an area subject to his influence.  I argue that this is only partially correct.  I think the Blight is more of a symptom of the Pattern tearing from the spike that is the Bore.  What would normally happen without that spike?  No influence of the Dark One, no Trollocs to kill people, none of these things would have happened, since the DO is outside of the Pattern.  So you would have all these people, and cities, and lands, that should be being spun out.  However they cannot due to Bore interference.  So instead you have nothing except Shadowspawn.  Thus the Blight.  It also explains how the Blight "moves".  It's weird how it varies, no?  Well the reason is that the Blight, as a symptom, gets worse whenever something bad happens to threads because of the Shadow.  Take Malkier, an entire countries' worth of threads snuffed out, displaced, and destroyed due to Shadow influence.  Therefore the Blight was able to displace that country in record time.  I argue that the goal of the nations is not to "defend" against the Blight, but to ensure that as many people as possible are not affected by the Shadow, because the more threads snuffed out, the wider the gash, the bigger the Blight.

 

So sorry about the long post, I just had to get the idea off my chest, but one last thought.

 

What if that one little thing that BS talked about was the spike?

 

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Really cool post lrbenson.  Very thoughtful.  Though I somewhat disagree with it (don't have time now to specifically pick it apart) I like your thinking.  I never thought of ta'veren being the "healing mechanism" but that does make sense.  Are you saying the seals are like the sutures?  I think of the seals as being the problem with the pattern being able to heal itself.  They didn't work quite right, which is why they need to be "cleared and built back up" as Herid Fel posited.

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Is it possible that the Bore is a weave of the One Power?  Weaves set in place by Mierin & Beidomon and whoever else helped in the research that led to the drilling of the Bore?

 

First, thanks Jemron!  And yup I meant the Seals are like sutures.

 

I could see that Murphy, the Bore being a weave.  A tied-off one.  In fact the One Power would have to have *something* to do with it.  But it would have to be tied to something wouldn't it? So that it wouldn't dissapate?

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How do you explain the blight receding, then?

 

 

And if it were made from the One Power, it could have been destroyed bu Lew Therin, no?

The Blight just like the rest of the world for that matter is linked to the state of Rand's health, mental, physical, and emotional.  It is the whole meme of the King is linked to the land and the land is linked to the King.  The Blight receded from books 1-3 because the Dragon Returned and gave the Shadow a few good body blows.  You notice as Rand sinks further into insanity and loses all his emotions (what makes him human) and as his physical condition worsens the Blight is advancing, there is no sunlight for food and so on.
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Not really it recedes than stablizes and then in the current book advances.  Which means it advanced in KoD also since some of it overlaps with TGS.  Also the taint was affecting him quite nicely by TGH let alone DR.  He also recieved his first big wound at the end of TGH (book 2).  It is just the fact that during Knife of Dreams and The Gathering Storm he is at the very edge of terminal insanity no pass go and no way for any help to get him back.  While this is going on you see as he makes his decision to cut his humanity off he is getting sicker and sicker and the land/sky/blight are responding in kind.

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I think people get too hooked up on the Creator and the Dark One and forget that everyone in the story is run by the Wheel, the Pattern, and it's totally neutral.

 

I posted this on Theoryland, it was a discussion on ta'veren doing the Light's work, and if Rand could kill the DO, but I'll copypasta:

 

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2754&page=5

 

First Post:

The ta'veren are there to keep neutrality, not to make the Light win.

 

Hence why the heroes of the horn sometimes fight on the other side, the pattern is neutral, the Creator doesn't want the DO gone, it'd destroy the neutrality.

 

So you're right I guess, if Rand were to try and kill the DO the Pattern would weave in ways to stop him, but since Fain has been said to be outside the pattern, you never know.

 

Second:

Yes, everything about the Pattern is neutral, when things get out of whack the Pattern pulls threads to make sure it comes back to the middle.

 

The Creator does not want the DO gone, so as such Rand's job is not to kill the DO, but to seal him again because evil is getting out of whack and needs balanced.

 

So any chances of Rand or anyone killing the DO would be nil because the Pattern would make sure it doesn't happen.

 

But this is why I think this Age is different, and that Fain is the key to something different happening.

 

Quote:

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

So Fain is actually a wildcard that is not controlled by the Pattern, or at least not fully, even the Forsaken are controlled by the Pattern, this is what makes the DO's job so tough, when he tries to get out, the Pattern makes sure it doesn't happen.

 

More Q/A's that are relevant:

 

The Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and go, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the age that gave it birth comes again. So begins each saga within the World of the Wheel, a universe in which the major controlling factor is the Wheel of Time and the Great Pattern it spins. A pattern in which light and dark, good and evil, male and female, and life and death struggle for balance within the weave of destiny...

 

The more change needed to bring the Great Pattern into balance, the more ta'veren spun out into the world.

 

Quote:

RJ: Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

 

Quote:

Question: At the end of The Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the One Power or something down by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?

Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasn't the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta'veren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false Dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false Dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one Dragon.

 

This is also why sometimes the Heroes have fought on the other side, there is no good or evil in the Pattern, and when it does start getting out of whack the Pattern weaves it through Heroes and ta'veren to bring it back to the middle.

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Excellent points Mossman.  But the extrapalation of what the Bore is is often ignored.  I argue that the Bore IS outside of the Pattern, since by definition it has to be.  We know the DO is not controlled by the Wheel.  He is trapped by it.  We know that the True Power is one of the few things that are also outside of the wheel, since it can harm cuellindar.  So we know that the Bore has to, at least in part, be outside of the wheel. 

 

Therefore, we can assume that the Bore was never planned by the Wheel.  The Wheel can plan for nothing that is outside of its realm of control.  Also, none of the Wheel's self correcting mechanisms has worked on the Bore so far, that's why I argue that something is actively keeping the Bore open, while the seals are the stitching that is keeping it kind of shut.  Also, since the Bore is still open, it is resulting in a larger and larger tear to the Wheel, which it's self correcting measures have done nothing to prevent.

 

I do agree that Fain has a large, large part to play, but logically, he is not the only one who is outside the influence of the Wheel.  I argue that the Bore, by its very existence, is as well.

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There is evidence of this.  That place where Rand goes during his dreams has a strange sky (probably looking outside of the pattern where the DO is imprisoned).  In TGS, something that stood out to me was that when Rand tried to touch the OP to get away from his dream with Moridin, it felt "far away" and seemed to "pull at him from a distance" or something like that.  It pulled him away/out of the dream.  That sounds like "outside of the pattern" to me.

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There is evidence of this.  That place where Rand goes during his dreams has a strange sky (probably looking outside of the pattern where the DO is imprisoned).  In TGS, something that stood out to me was that when Rand tried to touch the OP to get away from his dream with Moridin, it felt "far away" and seemed to "pull at him from a distance" or something like that.  It pulled him away/out of the dream.  That sounds like "outside of the pattern" to me.

 

Great catch!  So Rand might have been meeting Moridin inside of the Bore!  Interesting...

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