Verin (Full Book Spoilers)

[Blackhoof]

I'm thinking that in 'Towers of Midnight', Egwene will unlock the Nalasia Merhan/M.Al Saine Haran cipher through recognition of the name mispelling and have her executed before TG.

 

Whats the 'Nalasia Merhan/M.Al Saine Haran' cipher?

[Sharaman]

She said "I am certain of it" not "She said she was Messaana". Hence deduction - not direct proof. We know she's right, and I did mention that she met Messi twice.

 

That this was the result of a deduction on her part does not mean she did not have proof Sharaman. Deduction is the process of reaching a conclusion based on the examination of evidence. Certainty resulting from deduction means--depending on the discipline of the scholar in question--that the cumulative state of the evidence serves as proof of a suppostition. That is what Verin has done. We even have her notes on the evidence that led to her deduction.

 

I really don't see the point in this.

My post was in the context of Verin not knowing who Messi was posing as. She'd said that she didn't know the secret ID, and in that context, it may be important that she doesn't know with direct proof that it is even Messi -even if she has deduced correctly and she is sure. AS have occasionally proved to be certain of stuff that is plain wrong.

We know Messi partially and totally conceals her ability to channel, when she is in her secret ID and when she appears to Alviarin, respectively. If Messi was completely concealing her channeling ability when she met Verin, Verin would not, in the light of Shadar Logoth, even know that she was a Saidar-channeler,she could be a freak like Halima-Balthamiel.

Egwene later gets Sheriam's confession to reinforce Verin's deductions - Sheriam did meet Messi when she was not concealing her channeling ability. Otherwise, given Halima, Egwene would have to consider that possibility as well.

I am interested in knowing how Egwene is going to work this out, from the info she has, since she doesn't have access to this board. There's a puzzling gap in Egwene's logic when she makes her lists at the end of the WT purge.

 

[Luckers]

My post was in the context of Verin not knowing who Messi was posing as. She'd said that she didn't know the secret ID, and in that context, it may be important that she doesn't know with direct proof that it is even Messi -even if she has deduced correctly and she is sure.

 

And I reiterate, your attempt to suggest that Verin's deductions were without proof is unfounded. Indeed, 'contradictory' would be a better word.

[WolfDragonFox]

Thats enough of that guys.  Verin was certain due to her meetings and her deductions...no she doesn't know who she is but that she does know and told Egwene is the entire point, not only to build up Egwenes character arc more and to give her leadership more weight when she finds Mesaana but it also is not revealed so that it is a better read when we finally see her get on Mesaana's trail, find her and waste her.  So lets move on from all this bickering.  Its unbecoming.

[Luckers]

It's pointless, not unbecoming. We be WoT fans you silly newbie. Inane debate is what we do; it's who we are.

 

Seriously though, it's not your place to tell people what to discuss. That's my job. And since I'm in on this inane little discussion, that's not gonna happen.

 

Abuse of power? I think so!

 

Wait... what?

[OHurley]

Luckers-

 

LoL, m8! When ya put it like that... ;)

 

Also, on the subject of Verin, why the hell couldn't she deduce Messi's (no, not Lionel Messi...) identity? We (and I use "we" loosely) pretty much agree that Mesaana is almost certainly Danelle. How is it that Verin, an apparent master of deduction, couldn't discover the Chosen hiding in her OWN Ajah? That's the one thing that bugs me lol...

[OHurley]

Addendum-

 

"Her OWN Ajah" meaning the Brown, not the Black.

[Sharaman]

We have a lot of info Verin doesn't. But it is one of the reasons why I've wondered if Danelle is a red herring.

[Luckers]

With the exception of a month or two Verin had been out of the Tower during the entire time Mesaana has been in the Tower, and that month or two was in the very early days. Danelle's first big actions were in seeing to Siuan's fall, and in making sure the 'Laborers' were there to escalate the fighting, and by the time Verin was gone.

[Sharaman]

@Luckers - Absolutely! And neither she nor Egwene know what Messi looks like. So whatever Egwene finds out or Verin deduced has to come from some other angles.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Whats the 'Nalasia Merhan/M.Al Saine Haran' cipher?

 

It's a theory I came up with in the "Who is Mesaana in the Tower?" thread. I (very old habit of anagramming in word puzzles) noticed that the name Nalasia Merhan (one of the 3 suspects) contains all of the letters of both Mesaana's name and true-name (Saine), and through a failure of reading properly, associated it with Laras. Realizing that I'd done it wrong, I tried again, and came up with "M, Al Saine Haran" which translates roughly to "M, Hand of Saine" in the OT.

 

I'd thought it might be some trick of ego on Mesaana's part to take such a name, hidden in full view, but after reading this thread, I was reminded of the fact that -everything- in Verin's book is ciphered, and Egwene had to use the key she was given by Verin to do that. A double-cipher isn't out of the question.

 

Of course, it is a possibility that Verin really doesn't know, and that WAS a trick of ego on Mesaana's part naming herself like that, but this seems to make less sense to me as I don't see the opening for Egwene to ferret Mesaana out, which is where this subplot seems to be leading.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Given the range of the Verin-Egwene conversation and the fact that she was killing herself, why would she not say "X is Messaana?"

 

Rephrasing your question there, basically, since they amount to the same thing and I'll address them here:

 

As mentioned elsewhere, Verin's been out of the Tower for some time, whereas Egewene has not. Her experience with Egwene dates back to her being the innkeeper's daughter from Emmond's Field, not the new and blossoming Amyrlin Seat. She can't be very certain that the young Amyrlin will take the right path. That she'll do the "right" thing is something Verin would believe, and part of the reason she chose to contact her, added to the fact that she is known not to be a DF. Verin would know that Egwene will act on the information, but not that she'll do it in the most effective manner. She certainly doesn't have enough time to counsel the "girl" on the correct path.

 

There's two critical mistakes Egwene could make if she had Mesaana's identity.

1. Taking on Mesaana and the BA at the same time. Make a grab for everything, lose everything. As it was, almost half the BA got away. They'll be facing those at TG.

2. Taking out Mesaana first, (I'd considered this the more likely possibility, as Mesa's a tempting target to anyone, but I've changed my mind on that) throwing the BA into chaos and setting them loose on whatever.

 

As it is, if Verin feeds her the information on the BA, and lets her stumble across the second cipher, Mesaana is less likely to see it coming.

[Sharaman]

Why not just say " Hey, in my estimation, and I've been studying this for 70 years, it would be sensible for you to take the BA out first, and then handle Messi rather than do it the other way around or all together."

What after all, is to stop Egwene from quietly reading the book in her spare moments between being thrashed and healed, while she spends another six months or so, in captivity, discovering everything and then setting whatever priority she wants, as and when, she becomes Amyrlin?

Or did Verin know all about the Seanchan raid and that Egwene would become Amyrlin within 48 hours?

 

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

Why not just say " Hey, in my estimation, and I've been studying this for 70 years, it would be sensible for you to take the BA out first, and then handle Messi rather than do it the other way around or all together."

 

Because that reduces what she's saying to an opinion, rather than a case supported by facts. I realize that she's not a White of Logic, but she is a Black, and expecting Egwene to take her word for it is a stretch... assuming she heeds the advice at all. This method forces actions to happen in a certain path.

 

What after all, is to stop Egwene from quietly reading the book in her spare moments between being thrashed and healed, while she spends another six months or so, in captivity, discovering everything and then setting whatever priority she wants, as and when, she becomes Amyrlin?

Or did Verin know all about the Seanchan raid and that Egwene would become Amyrlin within 48 hours?

 

Doesn't Verin know that Egwene is a Dreamer and has -said- outright that the Seanchan raid would happen? As far as being Amyrlin goes, Egwene has shown (and Verin would be privy to this despite her "distracted" nature) repeatedly that she is in great command of her circumstances and wielding a powerful influence on the Tower sisters, where Elaida has none. She might not ever have become Amyrlin again, but she is in the position most likely to DO something with Verin's information. The ONLY person, as a matter of fact. The Tower is fractured, and the Rebels are elsewhere.

 

 

[Sharaman]

Egwene herself has no timeline on the Seanchan raid. It could be months later.

Yes, Verin gives her the notes on the assessment that Egwene can put them to best use, based on what she saw of Egwene's actions and character since TGH. This in itselfm means that she is leaving it to Egwene to make choices as to how to put that information to good use, depending on Egwene's circumstances.

It still wouldn't make sense for her to conceal Messi's id if she knows it. The chance that Egwene will get killed by Messi all unsuspecting while she's a prisoner is just too high.

There's far more downside to it than simply telling her and letting her make decisions, as indeed she will.

Further problem is, that if Egwene reads the book through before she's in a position to do anything, her reaction will be puzzlement and suspicion as to why Verin lied about something so important.

It just doesn't fly. Far more sane to simply assume that Verin doesn't know Messi's secret ID and has put down whatever she hopes will help Egwene find Messi.

 

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

It still wouldn't make sense for her to conceal Messi's id if she knows it. The chance that Egwene will get killed by Messi all unsuspecting while she's a prisoner is just too high.

 

What good is that information going to do her while she's a prisoner? "Help, Help, Nalasia is a Forsaken! Protect me!" I believe that she gave Egwene the information with the expectation she would eventually be free to use it, and some of it more readily than others. Yes, I know this is speculation, because we have yet to RAFO the end of Mesaana's story.

 

There's far more downside to it than simply telling her and letting her make decisions, as indeed she will.

Further problem is, that if Egwene reads the book through before she's in a position to do anything, her reaction will be puzzlement and suspicion as to why Verin lied about something so important.

 

You're forgetting what I said earlier - not only does she have to read it, but she has to puzzle out the DOUBLE-cipher, which isn't included in Verin's key. Placing a second cipher would ensure that the girl doesn't find out until after she's dealt with the Black Ajah, unless Egwene suddenly grows a genius complex.

 

simply assume that Verin doesn't know Messi's secret ID and has put down whatever she hopes will help Egwene find Messi.

 

That is the simplest solution, yes, and more likely. However, Jordan weaves complex (very much so, though not as much as Martin) plotlines that have great depth to them. I don't think it's coincidence that the book leads directly to clues to Mesaana's identity, and I'm adverse to applying the KISS principle to Jordan's writing.

 

After all, this thread -is- about speculation!

[Sharaman]

The info about Messi would probably galvanise Egwene into escaping rather than voluntarily staying a helpless prisoner. Verin knows that Egwene can walk or rather Travel anytime.

If she's told, "X is actually Messi and she's going to kill you. Scarper and make sure you kill her!" Egwene might rethink her priorities.

You don't think Verin would consider that the more effective course of action rather than handing over 1/2 complete info to a helpless prisoner?

The double-cipher sounds crazy. What if Egwene never works it out? Then Messi runs riot and Verin's greatest feat of deduction would go in vain.

The "book leads directly to clues ---" - are you referring to TGS or Verin's book?

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

The info about Messi would probably galvanise Egwene into escaping rather than voluntarily staying a helpless prisoner. Verin knows that Egwene can walk or rather Travel anytime.

 

To my understanding, Egwene is to remain shielded at all times. As far as walking goes, she can't leave the Tower for the same reason.

 

You don't think Verin would consider that the more effective course of action rather than handing over 1/2 complete info to a helpless prisoner?

 

Except that's what she did... Hand over a =complete= document (whether one theory of the other is true.

 

What if Egwene never works it out? Then Messi runs riot and Verin's greatest feat of deduction would go in vain.

 

Greatness is irrelevant here unless Verin's greatest concern is her vanity. The information is going to be OBSOLETE within short order, and the most effective thing that can be done is removing Mesaana's tools rather than Mesaana herself. 30 Black Ajah is a heckuvalot more deadly at The Last Battle, which again is due in short order, than one Forsaken.

 

The "book leads directly to clues ---" - are you referring to TGS or Verin's book?

 

Verin's.

[Sharaman]

Assuming Verin knows about the forkroot/ shielding (which she should), she also knows Egwene is a dreamer who can call in help anytime. To get her out, or to give her angreal to help her get out.

That isn't an issue.

Anyway, I think your theory doesn't work in terms of logical construction but who knows?

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

Assuming Verin knows about the forkroot/ shielding (which she should), she also knows Egwene is a dreamer who can call in help anytime. To get her out, or to give her angreal to help her get out.

 

IIRC, the Tower, which would include Verin, knows next to nothing about Dreaming other than the theories Verin first told Egwene about. She certainly does not know anything about the Dream walking education Egwene learned from the Aiel or the closely guarded secret of the dream ter'angreals that Elayne gave the Rebels.

 

Yes, Egwene CAN do those things, but there's no reason for Verin to know that.

[Sharaman]

Beonin has told Elaida about the dream ability so the Tower knows, though it doesn't believe. Of course that may not have filtered through to the Tower Black Ajah yet.

Also, Verin probably doesn't have any Black Ajah contacts with the rebels.

And the rebel BA don't talk to the Tower BA.

Verin's had plenty of contact with Aiel WO herself. Possibly, given her general lack of curiousity and her disinterest in dream ter'angreal and her inability to put information together, she doesn't know.

Anyhow.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Beonin has told Elaida about the dream ability so the Tower knows, though it doesn't believe. Of course that may not have filtered through to the Tower Black Ajah yet.

Also, Verin probably doesn't have any Black Ajah contacts with the rebels.

And the rebel BA don't talk to the Tower BA.

Verin's had plenty of contact with Aiel WO herself. Possibly, given her general lack of curiousity and her disinterest in dream ter'angreal and her inability to put information together, she doesn't know.

Anyhow.

 

1. One Black Ajah knowing something doesn't mean every Black Ajah knows something. Of course the Tower "knows" - Egwene told them herself. The information only means something to those who know -all- about dreaming and the skills relevant to it. That doesn't automatically include every Black Ajah. They know exactly what the Forsaken above them wants them to know or what they can ferret out themselves.

2. Sure, she no doubt has contact within the rebels. Does that mean they tell her everything, even if it's not relevant to the information she's looking for?

3. Verin's contact with the AIel is irrelevant. They don't looselip their secrets, and they hold Aes Sedai in especially low esteem. Sure she's nosy, but what do the WO have anything whatsoever to do with her life's work of ferreting BA?

 

Really, she's a ... relatively...  minor enough character, with no text to back your speculation that this is wildly blue-sky'ed assumptions. At least my "insanity" is relatively grounded close to what has already been written, taking only the possibility of Mesaana's identity being discovered as a stretch. Your speculation elevates Verin to sub-Forsaken level, with the entire Black Ajah as her eyes and ears. It's not that easy, and there's a reason why that list of 50 sisters took 70 some years.

[Sharaman]

200-odd sisters, not 50.

Lots of experiments in dreamtime -enough to have abstracted all Coreanin's notes and lots of dream ter'angreal and picked up mysterious wounds and survived.

Connections with Aiel WOs - they gave her enough room for her to have used compulsion on their prisoners.

A BA network spanning both WT and rebels. 

Stretch to assume Verin doesn't know about dreaming.

Enough at least to know Egwene is in touch with the Rebels.

Anyway, let's leave it.

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

200-odd sisters, not 50.

Lots of experiments in dreamtime -enough to have abstracted all Coreanin's notes and lots of dream ter'angreal and picked up mysterious wounds and survived.

Connections with Aiel WOs - they gave her enough room for her to have used compulsion on their prisoners.

A BA network spanning both WT and rebels. 

Stretch to assume Verin doesn't know about dreaming.

Enough at least to know Egwene is in touch with the Rebels.

 

The stretch isn't that Verin knows that dreaming is actively being studied again, the stretch is that she knows the details of what can be done. dreamwalking cannot be done by anyone but forsaken, and is not discussed by Aiel. Dreamspeaking requires her to have the foresight to ask whether a dreamer can do so under the influence of forkroot. You're assuming a depth of knowledge in Verin on a subject that is very low on her priority list, and that IS a stretch. Being a Brown doesn't mean you know everything, nor does being a Black mean you can make an information withdrawal at the nearest BA library on demand.

[WolfDragonFox]

Everyone on here must watch this video that Dragonmount posted on their Twitter account.  As a film professional I can tell you this is great quality but there are some strangeties in the way they did the questioning...but that isn't really a big issue that will turn you off of it, just a professional observation that distracted me personally.  Anyway I only subscribe to DM's twitter account because every now and again you actually get something good or useful, most other times its useless non WoT related spouts.  Anyway here is the link to the video.

 

http://mythmakersfilm.com/sanderson/SANDERSON_FINAL.mov 

 

It is information for the most part that you probably have read somewhere before but it is nice to see in a short TGS signing documentary.