The Seanchan

[Luckers]

The dream, i think, is representative of the Seanchan army that attacks Tar Valon, which is why the sword is so locked while the face wavers. The figure as a whole is female because that army will come to Egwenes aid under the leadership of Tuon after having signed the pact with Rand.

 

As for why Tuon would sign a pact with Rand. Tuon is no idiot, and recent events as well as the strength of Rands position and several other factors will be enough to make her honestly and intellectually concider the offer.

[Dionysus]

I posted a theory on wotmania which discusses some of this.

 

Dark Ones Warplan Part 2- The Battle of the White Tower - http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1405

 

If you read it tell me what you think, I dont really like wotmanias discussion system, message board posts just get pushed off the page so fast and its not often you get good discussion on the noteboard... Anyways, [end rant]

[Luckers]

Yeah I loathe Wotmania's board system.

[Gorwyn]

Just a thought. Would Egwene even accept help from a senchan ? She hates them with a passion for putting her in the collar. She is also fearful of them, maybe to even to the extent of nightmares about them. Then add on top of that fear some of the forsaken are really good with dream powers. With a fear already present there is no telling wich of her dreams were prophecy and wich were induced.

[cuchulain klepto]

On a different note' date=' I have to disagree with the idea that Egwene's Seanchan savior is Tuon. She had a sword. In what way could a sword be attributed to Tuon? "Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as [b']solid as the stone[/b]." The sword part of the dream seems pretty important, if you ask me. As has already been pointed out here, Tuon isn't likely to cast off her culture so abruptly to help Egwene, an escaped damane, do anything. But, there could be a whole thread about just that one dream, so I'll leave it at that.

 

I think that the sword represents the One Power. The fact that it is strapped to her back indicates that her ability to channel is as yet only potential.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Seanchan WILL attack the White Tower in the next book. Egwene was certain of that meaning.

 

Egwene's dreams are highly symbolic. I think the "woman" whose featured constantly shift is not a single person, but represents the Seanchan as a whole. They have been led by Empresses exclusively for several hundred years, and their power is based on female damane, so the Seanchan "nation" would be female as an icon. The sword would likely be a certain "bloody Ever Victorious flaming Army" (Mat rules). Remember Tuon and Selucia were eager to get their hands on a copy of the Band's maps because they would indicate where they were going. The shortest road from Ebou Dar to the Tower goes through the Molvaine Gap, the area the Band had been mapping. I envision the plan as something along these lines: an initial strike as describe in those other posts, airborne soldiers and damane dropped in, with support troops following on the ground. This proved very effective in Amador. It is the support troops which are likely massing at the Molvaine Gap.

 

A few other points.

 

Tylee Khirgan is now of the Low Blood because she just funished the Empire with several HUNDRED new damane. Thats a nice boost for any Tower assault.

 

Semirhage was tasked with creating chaos among the Seanchan. What better way than having them plan to march troops across Murandy and ANDOR, on the way to the Tower .... where if both armies keep moving straight, they will run smack into the BORDERLANDERS.

 

Given the wobbling lamp symbology of the dream, and the promise of a White Tower "whole and stronger than ever" from Elaida's Fortelling (which mentioned remnants cast out and scorned), I would surmise that the attack will fail, but provide Egwene with the opportunity to become Amyrlin herself in the tower ("We can make it together"). The Tower would then be reunited("whole ... ", with ties to the Kin, the increased Tower guard, Gareth Bryne's army, (... and stronger than ever).

 

That said, there is alot of room for conflict here.

 

Perrin promised to protect Ghealdan, which is between Tarabon and Amadicia and the Tower. The Seanchan are probably considering that route, because part of their agreement with Perrin was that the ancient banner of Manetheren would not be raised, and Manetheren consituted western Andor and Ghealdan.

 

Who knows what would happen if the battle hardened borderlander army ran into veteran Seanchan forces. That could get BLOODY.

 

How will Egwene feel about Rand seeking a treaty with the Seanchan? They'll almost certainly demand that he leave damane in their hands. As Amyrlin, I doubt Egwene will find that palatable.

 

How will the different passages of "prophecy" (regarding the Dragon bowing to the Crystal Throne and/or binding the Nine Moons to serve him) be resolved? Tuon (or whatever her new name is) will almost certainly demand his subjugation at any meeting.

 

Lots of fun ....

[Guest Majsju]

How will Egwene feel about Rand seeking a treaty with the Seanchan? They'll almost certainly demand that he leave damane in their hands. As Amyrlin, I doubt Egwene will find that palatable.

 

How will the different passages of "prophecy" (regarding the Dragon bowing to the Crystal Throne and/or binding the Nine Moons to serve him) be resolved? Tuon (or whatever her new name is) will almost certainly demand his subjugation at any meeting.

 

I don't think any of these will pose that much of a problem. Rand has flat out stated that he sees two options, either he gets a treaty he finds acceptable, or he will destroy the Seanchan once and for all. And he's too much of a bighead to bow to anyone, so he'll explain to Tuon that that particular thing doesn't belong in the prophecies. The matter of damane has already started to change, so he might see it as enough to make sure the word about Sul'dam is spread to as many Seanchan as possible, to speed up the inevitable.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm sure you're right that Rand will not willingly bow to Tuon (or anyone else for that matter). What I don't believe is that it will be as simple as Rand "explaining" to her that the prophecy is wrong. Tuon is at LEAST as "strong-minded" (to put it politely) as Rand, and she has not wavered a HAIR in her opinion on marath'damane and damane. She wouldn't even talk to the Aes Sedai with Mat. So while the people involved (Rand and Tuon) are clear on their positions, it is NOT clear how they can be accomodated. Except that Rand has started to back off on freeing damane, as you said. He is sending back the ones that accompanied Semirhage. So that is the most likely area on which he will compromise. Nynaeve and Cadsuane were not happy with that, and you can bet Egwene, who has BEEN damane, will be much LESS happy.

[Guest Majsju]

Well, Tuon is a sick and disgusting person, but she's not stupid. I think she will realize what it means when Rand tells her "Do as I say or I'll destroy you." If someone's pointing the biggest gun you've ever seen at you, demanding that person to bow is usually a pretty stupid thing to do.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Um .... that seems to me like the best way to get Tuon to say "bring it on". She is sublimely convinced of the Empire's innate rightness, and the whole Seanchan attitude (the EVER VICTORIOUS Army?) is that in the end, they can't lose. She has that attitude with bells on.

[TheDiceAgain...]

Well, Tuon is a sick and disgusting person, but she's not stupid.

 

I don't know about that one...

 

Yes, Tuon has some views with which I disagree. She is a hypocrite in that she knows she can channel but still enslves damane, but that is a product of her upbringing and the beliefs of the socienty that she knows. She was indoctrinated into that belief as a child and has known nothing else. This does not, in itself, make her sick and disgusting. It makes her, if anything, misguided.

 

As to the prophecies, she is laboring under a misconception fostered by Ishamael. Unfortunately for her(and Mat who's bound to get stuck in the middle), she is extraordinarily strong willed and arrogant. This will probably keep her from seeing the error of her ways anywhere this side of a serious "attitude adjustment"/ultimatum; i.e. Rand delivers his version of the "kneel or be knelt" speech...

[Guest Majsju]

Yes, Tuon has some views with which I disagree. She is a hypocrite in that she knows she can channel but still enslves damane, but that is a product of her upbringing and the beliefs of the socienty that she knows. She was indoctrinated into that belief as a child and has known nothing else. This does not, in itself, make her sick and disgusting. It makes her, if anything, misguided

 

You could say the exact same thing about a certain political movement in Germany not even 100 years ago. Were they just misguided as well?

Being misguided is never an excuse, especially not when it concerns a person described as intelligent. The current Tuon is a monster.

 

However, considering what's happening with the Seanchan and the Damane, RJ has planted a seed for a rather interesting question about the monster and redemption. If we see Tuon and at least a great part of the Seanchan start to change their mind about channelers, I'm convinced a majority of the readers will be ready to forgive. Granted, we're dealing with fictional characters, not real people, but the philosophical aspect is certainly interesting.

 

As to the prophecies, she is laboring under a misconception fostered by Ishamael. Unfortunately for her(and Mat who's bound to get stuck in the middle), she is extraordinarily strong willed and arrogant. This will probably keep her from seeing the error of her ways anywhere this side of a serious "attitude adjustment"/ultimatum; i.e. Rand delivers his version of the "kneel or be knelt" speech...

 

Well, we know what kind of army Rand is gathering if Tuon fails to comply. He outnumbers the Seanchan greatly, and if he can somehow hook up with Ituralde along the way he will gain a commander who's showed a great ability to fight off the Seanchan. Perhaps Tuon wouldn't see things clearly at first, but how about after losing 10000 men in a few minutes? 20000? 100000? How many would she be prepared to sacrifice before realizing her prophecy is BS?

[TheDiceAgain...]

It's funny (funny = interesting, not funny = haha) that you bring up the Nazis because I almost included an allusion to the Nazi Youth in my post. I agree that the Nazis and their ideology was hateful and one of the great tragedies in human history. But in my own life, I've met and loved a woman who was once one of the Nazi youth; my grandmother. She made me believe that almost anyone can be shown the error of his/her ways as long as they have not made a conscious, individual decision to hate.

 

As to the armies, I agree. Rand may need to chew up the Seanchan like dogmeat for a while, but eventually Tuon will submit because she has no other choice, which is where the "kneel or be knelt" comes in.

[Guest Majsju]

But in my own life, I've met and loved a woman who was once one of the Nazi youth; my grandmother. She made me believe that almost anyone can be shown the error of his/her ways as long as they have not made a conscious, individual decision to hate.

 

And there you have it, the question of the monster and the redemption I mentioned. Considering how the world looks today it's a very interesting aspect.

[Luckers]

For all that tuon is reprehensible, she's also not an idiot. A bit blinded by her beliefs, but that wont stop her from realising the reality that an alliance with Rand will be needed... i suspect revealing Semirhage's role in recent situations will play a part in this too.

 

I do hope, though, that its not as weak a change as the Whitecloaks.

 

Whitecloaks: We hate Aes Sedai.

Galad: We should join the Aes Sedai.

Whitecloaks: Awesome, i'd totally be up for that.

 

Bah!

[RobertAlexWillis]

How Robert Jordan writes out that conversion is something I'm looking forward to reading. Rand better bring something other than threats to the table though, or else Jordan will have to morph Tuon completely, and I don't see that.

[Luckers]

I really wanna see Tuon meet Cadsuane. If any channeler can force some response out of Tuon, it'll be Cads.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, I'm wondering as well if Tuon hasn't channeled already. In A Hell in Maderin, after the street fight, there is this dialogue (Knife of Dreams, p.408):

 

"I'm an old man," Thom said suddenly, "and sometimes I imagine things that can't be, but luckily, I always forget them."

 

Selucia paused to look up at him coolly. Lady's maid she might be, but blood seemed not to faze her at all. "And what might you be trying to forget?"

 

"I can't recall," Thom replied. Selucia nodded and went back to examining his wounds.

 

 

Now, from Mat's POV we didn't see what happened, and I can't find any clues, other than this ... what can Tuon do, that Thom knows she isn't supposed to? Something that she might have done instinctively in the heat of battle?

 

Channel.

 

Now, if she has channeled even once, she won't be able to stop. How will that affect her decisions? I'm not sure, but it could be fun to find out.

 

I admit there are a few holes in this. Why didn't Mat notice his medallion going cold? What did she DO with the weave, if she did channel? There are explanations, but I'm curious if anyone has any other idea what she might have done to elicit that response from Thom.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Sorry, wrong source page, it's Knife of Dreams, page 288. My bad.

[Luckers]

This has been raised before, and the consensus is that it is refering to Selucia, not Tuon. Specifically, refering to Selucia's ability to fight. There are three reasons for this. One, Selucia would not cover for her mistress suddenly channeling--thats concidered one of the greatest crimes there is in Seanchan. The children of the Empress are no less subject to those laws. Two, Selucia would not cover it up that well even if she did decide to. Three, Tuon would not be able to channel without having been specifically trying to... likely should have had to have been trying to for some time. RJ commented on this about Learners during the last DragonCon, even for sul'dam who are more... stimulated then normal Learners. It is possible for them to start channeling untaught, but only with the intentional effort on their part. Spontaneuos channeling of the like that Sparkers do just doesn't happen... no matter how freaked out Tuon got... and i rather doubt she was freaked out.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Good points ... I'm not sure why Selucia's fighting ability would be so taboo, but the spontaneous channeling argument is very solid ... oh well.

[Luckers]

Not taboo... but certainly underplayed. Thom saw, Selucia and Tuon didn't want everyone to know, and he conceded.

[Dionysus]

also, if Tuon was channeling Mat may have felt something in his medallion. Is it only if someone is channeling against him or if someone is channeling nearby?

[RobertAlexWillis]

"I admit there are a few holes in this. Why didn't Mat notice his medallion going cold?"

 

I admitted this was a problem Dionysus. And could only be explained by the medallion maybe not being in contact with his skin at some point during the fight. But thanks :D I rarely get to quote myself.

 

Anyway, Tuon not having the spark ruins the argument, so it's a moot point. Thom's reaction just seemed a bit strong to me, to just be about Selucia's fighting ability. But that does fit with the fact that he adressed his comments to her, rather than Tuon.

[Luckers]

Thom prides himself on his ability to read people, and im guessing he completely missed this about Selucia. That more then anything explains his reaction.