Concerning Balefire

[Farslayer82]

I have a question about Balefire. Balefire is fully explained to us in TFoH, but used several times prior to this book. Was there any hint at balefire's effect on its victims prior to the explanation in TFoH? I can understand in the cases where Moiriane used it that the strength of her Balefire is fairly weak, only able to erase a few seconds. But I specifically remember Nynaeve using it against some fades in TDR that hurt or killed some of the Aiel that were there to rescue them. I cannot remember any specific hints to the effect of balefire prior to Moiraine's explanation. Did he add this effect to it later in the series? I know it is expressed as forbidden several times...but I still feel as if we should have seen a hint of its effects the way it was used so much, especially in the scene I described. Thanks

[OptimusPrime]

Didnt she explain in when she killed Bel'al in TDR?

[Farslayer82]

No, she explains the effect in TFoH after Rand liquifies the Dark hounds attacking Mat. Even though it's not explained until then, it should still have the same effect in the earlier books unless RJ altered his original concept of the weave later on. I don't recall seeing the effect of Balefire erasing time until Rand uses it on the Dark hounds. I can understand in most of the prior cases there really isn't anything to look for except the specific scene in TDR where Nynaeve liquifies the 3 fades who killed Aiel.

 

Is this an inconsistancy with Balefire? or does anyone have an exlpanation for it?

[OptimusPrime]

I dont think its inconsistent, just that the earliest times we see it there is no reason for it to be explained.

[Hallow]

I dont think its inconsistent, just that the earliest times we see it there is no reason for it to be explained.

 

You're missing the point, he's asking why werent the Aiel killed by fades resurrected after Nynaeve balefired said fades in TDR

[richnewton82]

.

[Hallow]

because she didn't use enough of the power to do that?

 

Why wouldnt she? We can only assume that since the balefire was something that just happened for her that it would manifest itself within her full powers, it's also fairly likely that there were only a few seconds in between, making even Moiraines balefire sufficient, which is the weakest balefire we have seen to date I believe.

[richnewton82]

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[richnewton82]

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[Hallow]

You can read it yourself.. its in chapter 39 (page 380 of the hardback). The Aiel and Myrdraal and bandits all brattle. The bandits die and so do 2 Aiel. We don't know how they die. None of the Myrdaal are dead and 5 Aiel remain and are taunting them and saying "Dance with me." Some time passes. Egween, Elayne, and Nynaeve step out embracing the True Power. Egweene attacks first with fire. Elayne crushes them with air. Nynaeve shots "a thin bar of white light that made noonday sun seem dark, a bar of fire that made molten metal seem coold, connecting her hands to the Myrdraal."

 

So:

 

1. obviously it was a small bar of balefire

2. up to a minute or two could have passed since the Aiel died

3. I would have said that we don't know the myrdraal even killed the Aiel except it says later that they took shadowman steel

 

So there's no reason to say conclusively that RJ later invented the idea that balefire burns stuff backwards in time. there's no reason the Aiel had to have come back to life here.

 

Rand's balefire later is MUCH stronger when he balefires the dog in Rhiduin but even moreso when he balefires Rahvin.

 

So what you're saying is that the wonder girls are forsaken in diguise?

 

On a more serious note, I hadn't actually read it myself, and it was way to late for me to check. It only seemed that there was some mis understanding ass to what the OP meant.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The only explanation that I can think of that doesn't contain an inconsistency is that they did take "Shadowman steel."

 

What is "Shadowman steel?"

 

Thrakandar, which, as we see later with its initial quenching, consumes souls.

 

Now, if Nynaeve had balefired the Myrrdraal's swords instead of the Fades themselves, the Aiel might have been reconstituted.  She simply balefired the wrong entity to accomplish what you want her to have accomplished.

[Blackhoof]

All the Myrrdralls deeds were, or should have been, erased in the last few secnds/minutes.

 

Who wielded the sword? the Myrrdrall, so unless too much time had passed, the Aiel should have come back alive. And i'm pretty sure the Myrrdralls sword liquefied, too.

[OptimusPrime]

A thin bar says it all. Some people think when Rand balefired Rahvin that only a couple of minutes were undone at the most and the stream of balefire was the biggest we've seen by far IIRC.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Lightning strikes.  Mat, Avi, and Asmo die.  Rand takes that in once he exits the Gateway and closes it down.

 

Rand gates to throneroom.  There is a running firefight with Rahvin during which they each destroy parts of the palace.  Rahvin jumps into T'a'R.  Rand follows.  More firefight.  Rand has to work his way through Rahvin's traps, at one point nearly being frozen-in-place for some appreciable time.  Nynaeve spots Rahvin and has Moggy fireball him.  Rahvin flails around.  Rand rinally spots Rahvin and makes the kill shot.

 

That all takes a lot longer than a couple of minutes.

 

Realistically, maybe as little as 15 minutes, maybe as much as a half hour.

[Blackhoof]

Yes, there is that. But it was probably more like half an hour to an hour. maybe a little less.

[scott_swampy]

Yeah but the problem's part of it took part in the dream world where time moves differently so once they enter the gateway half a second could have past or it could have been 10 hour's.

[OptimusPrime]

Lightning strikes.  Mat, Avi, and Asmo die.  Rand takes that in once he exits the Gateway and closes it down.

 

Rand gates to throneroom.  There is a running firefight with Rahvin during which they each destroy parts of the palace.  Rahvin jumps into T'a'R.  Rand follows.  More firefight.  Rand has to work his way through Rahvin's traps, at one point nearly being frozen-in-place for some appreciable time.  Nynaeve spots Rahvin and has Moggy fireball him.  Rahvin flails around.  Rand rinally spots Rahvin and makes the kill shot.

 

That all takes a lot longer than a couple of minutes.

 

Realistically, maybe as little as 15 minutes, maybe as much as a half hour.

 

This was how I imagined it but everyone disagreed with me on that

[Delvoire]

Yeah but the problem's part of it took part in the dream world where time moves differently so once they enter the gateway half a second could have past or it could have been 10 hour's.

 

That would be the key there.

[Bob T Dwarf]

But, since there is no fixed differential in time flow between the waking world and T'a'R, all we can do is base an estimation on actual time needed to accomplish all of the action contained between the lightning strike and Rahvin's death.

 

30 minutes seems reasonable.  Read through that whole battle again.  Count the number of pages it takes.