Mat's Luck

[OptimusPrime]

would venture a guess that it all manifested in each of them at about the same time.  Perrin's wolf-dreamin' and Mat's luck seemed to have begun to manifest themselves at the same time, as well as Rand's channeling. 

 

Rands channeling did not involve luck in any way, shape or form, nor did it come about becayse he is Ta'veren. It involved him being of the age where sparkers' spark manifests, falling within whatever timescale any old sparker would be expected to spark.

 

Mats luck started around the same time as Perrins Wolfbrother trait, this is true. But before that, Mat found the dagger, and was influenced by its taint. And before that, his luck was normal luck. I myself dont think at all that Perrins Wolfbrother trait is down to Ta'veren; the Ta'veren about that incident is that Elyas showed up at the time it came out. Perrin would have freaked out if he hadnt had Elyas to "break the news." It is a thing of old, Perrins Wolfbrother, but nothing at all hints that he got it just because he became Ta'veren shortly before.

 

I always believed the boys supernatural traits complimented their Ta'verenism. I think the Ta'verenism in the introduction of the channeling, Wolfbrother and RANDOM-OUCTOME-SPECIFIC luck will only relate to the exact timing they came about. Rands channeling came before the Forsaken escaped, whereas a few more months of the channeler status being dormant would likely have fallen within the natural timescale. Perrins Wolfbrother is not unique to him, because Elyas probably wasnt a Ta'veren-made Wolfbrother, so why should Perrin be? Mat was naturally lucky, and his place in the Pattern led him to Shadar Logoth, where his natural personality-curious-made him pick up an item that would in time amplify his luck.

 

Lets look at the quote from early on again for a second.

 

Moiraine said, "No one knows about ta'veren as strong as Rand... Artur Hawkwing was the most strongly ta'veren of whom any writings remain. And Hawking was in no way as strong as Rand.

    "It is said," Lan put in, "There were times when people in the same room as Hawkwing spoke truth when they meant to lie, made decisions they had not even known they were contemplating. Times when every toss of the dice, every turn of the cards, went his way. But only times."

 

 

8, Jarra, 115

 

Mats and Hawkwings Ta'verenism are of different levels of strength-we can determine this because the explanation of Hawkwings feels more like Rands. Yet, even as a less-than-Hawkwing Ta'veren, Mats dicing (and ONLY dicing) is of note when comparing Ta'veren. And aside from that we see Mat figure out how he can use his luck in other situations; he can roam a city randomly and stop randomly, ending up on the street he needs, and spin on the spot, fall over, and be looking at the building he needs. Now I am willing to go as far as to say that Hawkwing could not do that successfully. Why? Because we have several times where people familiar with Ta'veren explain its effects and Mats unusual luck doesnt fit them well enough. Look at the Lan quote again. Hawkwings luck applied to dice AND cards. Mat notes a distinguishable difference between how his luck effects his dicing, and DOESNT affect his card games. Again, the question is why? And the answer is that, as Mat has repeatedly proven to us, his luck that sets him apart applies only to situations that are purely random. Because a deck of cards is shuffled, the cards are bound to end up in a certain order, especially when you take into account people who can deal hands out deliberately. A card game can be influenced easily by having cards of your own, inserted into your hand as and when you see the opportunity to cheat. Mat doesnt succeed in cards as he does in dice, and that is because the only way-the ONLY way-to influence a dice game is to use weighted dice.

 

Mats luck shares only one trait of Hawkwings, which is the dicing. If it was the same, then we would be seeing as many obvious examples of people blurting things out to Mat as we have seen with Rand.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I would venture a guess that it all manifested in each of them at about the same time.  Perrin's wolf-dreamin' and Mat's luck seemed to have begun to manifest themselves at the same time, as well as Rand's channeling.  

 

That's -almost- correct in that all of them manifested at the approximately same time, but according to Jordan, they all manifested ta'veren before (or about the same time as) the series began.

 

^{RJ: You might say that ta’veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. ~ RJ, "CoT: Glimmers Prologue, Q&A"}

[OptimusPrime]

That doesnt change anything though. We all know they were Ta'veren before any of the unusual aspects of the biys came about, and naturally, it is obvious that more events pass off normally than get affected by Ta'verenism. How does the passage change anything? They all manifested Ta'verenism at the same time, but not all of them experience the exagerated luck that Mat does.

 

You know what, this discussion has happened before so Im going to quote myself.

 

From the discussion Mats Luck and Channeling, where this topic became very nitpicky.

 

 

Look at the nature of the Shadar Logoth taint. At the end of the day, when you break it down as far as possible, Mordeth became as dark as the Shadow to fight it, right? So, in other words, he gained those powers because he wanted them. It sounds crappy when you put it like that but thats how it is. I suppose you could look at the luck as an evil version of Ta'veren chance altering. To say someone wants powers to fight the Shadow, wouldnt this kind of luck be perfect? For random events to always go in your favor? Think about it. Random versus regularity is EXACTLY the same as chaos versus order. What better way for Mordeth to combat chaos, than to always benefit from chaotic situations?

 

True, there hasnt been anything from Fain hinting at this, but I find that to be irrelevent. His Shadar Logoth abilities are there to oppose the Shadows, so even if he isnt lucky that could easily mean that he resisted that aspect of the Shadar Logoth taint due to the residue left from being touched by the Dark One. The two wounds in Rands side oppose each other because they are from two sources of evil; Fain has both evils in him, so even if he didnt get the luck from the dagger that doesnt change a thing. We have already seen that the Dark Ones touch gave him some defense against Mordeths powers; thats the reason he is still Fain.

 

Another thing, many people assume that Mats luck would have jumped instantly when he got the dagger. Just take into account that he didnt become instantly suspicious of everyone the second he picked it up. We all saw the daggers effect happen gradually, dont ignore that when opposing this side of the debate. I believe all aspects of the daggers taint will have sunk into Mat gradually. Remember that Mat would have died without the dagger; the fact that he was left so long with it meant its connection to him was strong, its no wonder there was something left behind when it was removed. Its just like the Taint; it affected Rand right up until he Cleansed Saidin, but even with the Taint gone the effects on Rands mind were enough to still be noticeable.

 

It just cant be Ta'veren. Theres no way, it doesnt fit. Mats Ta'veren luck makes assassins step on the only floorboard in the house that creaks. Rands means he just happened to unknowingly select Osan'gar without looking. Randomness wasnt involved in either of those two, not pure randomness. Not the sort of randomness that fits with the luck that makes Mat different from Rand and Perrin.

 

The bit about Fain and the arguement of him not being lucky like Mat is, I wasnt saying I think he is or isnt, only why Ithink that IF he isnt, it doesnt affect my theory on the nature of the Shadar Logoth evil

[Eht Slat Meit]

That doesnt change anything though. We all know they were Ta'veren before any of the unusual aspects of the biys came about, and naturally, it is obvious that more events pass off normally than get affected by Ta'verenism. How does the passage change anything? They all manifested Ta'verenism at the same time, but not all of them experience the exagerated luck that Mat does.

 

The point was addressing a previous question about it, and clarifying the situation you posed in your comment. It also sets the stage for some thoughts I was reasoning out.

 

You know, I'm not convinced that any such "exaggerated luck" ability exists in Mat. In fact, I think it's a perception that stems from how he uses his ta'veren abilities. Emphasize: Uses. Perrin doesn't, and Rand bends the Pattern. Some key facets:

 

1. The "Dice-Rolling". This tells Mat that something "big" is about to happen. The reader may be able to guess what impact it has, Mat cannot.

2. Mat's ability, like all ta'veren, is highly dependent on chance. He can win at dice alot, cards less, and horse-racing hardly at all.

3. The results seem predominantly 'good', rather than balanced like ta'veren luck, but good is relative. It almost as if it's giving him what he's looking for, good or bad, when he actively uses it.

 

Anyone else notice that #1 and #3 seem fundamentally like T'A'R Talents/abilities - 'Seeking' (i.e. the Bowl) and Egwene's 'Visions'? Mat has a mental sense of when something critical to the Pattern will happen as well as the ability to find what he needs by allowing himself to be guided by the Pattern. If he opens himself to winning at coins, it might either not work or he may find himself winning all the time... and therefore unwelcome at any further games. That's not really 'good' luck.

 

Summed up, the exaggerated luck seems to be a projection of more basic abilities.

 

Some suggestions have been made about SL's influence, and that -does- make sense. We know that similar to ta'veren, both SL and its embodiment, Padan Fain, twist or darken things simply by proximity to them. Mat's ta'veren luck might have been twisteds/sharpened by exposure to the blighted dagger causing it to run in greater intensity.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Mat's ability, like all ta'veren, is highly dependent on chance. He can win at dice alot, cards less, and horse-racing hardly at all.

 

Yet Hawkwings luck affected cards as much as dice or so it seems, making him different from Mat. His affected cards even though there is a more set outcome than with dice. Mat has one, not both, which is worth noting. Why would Mat have only part of Hawkwings "luck" but not all of it? Because they are from different sources.

 

Damn it, I thought of something else relevent but I lost it

[Eht Slat Meit]

Mat's ability, like all ta'veren, is highly dependent on chance. He can win at dice alot, cards less, and horse-racing hardly at all.

 

Yet Hawkwings luck affected cards as much as dice or so it seems, making him different from Mat. His affected cards even though there is a more set outcome than with dice. Mat has one, not both, which is worth noting. Why would Mat have only part of Hawkwings "luck" but not all of it? Because they are from different sources.

 

Damn it, I thought of something else relevent but I lost it

 

I can think of two reasons, the former known, the second probable:

1. Mat is nowhere near as strongly ta'veren as Hawkwing was. There are levels of ta'vereness as should be made very obvious by Rand. Whereas Mat might only be affecting pure chance, Hawkwing was strongly ta'veren enough to affect the cardplay of the player. That's a critical difference, such as with Rand and Mat - Mat is nowhere near strong enough a ta'veren to make an Aes Sedai drop to her knees and swear fealty to him.

2. Ta'veren manifest their luck in different ways, as illustrated by the fact that one has weddings performed in his wake, another is a master of cards, another the king of dice, and so on.

 

They are both ta'veren. There is no "different source". This is established by Jordan himself, in that quote I just gave you. There can be different effects on that ta'verenosity (lol) or different levels of strength in it, but they're both from the same place. The Pattern. Again, by Jordan. Not by my say-so.

 

You are basically suggesting that all ta'veren are exactly the the same in luck power when they are clearly not, any more than everyone with the one power has the same Talents or abilities.

 

The KISS principle says: Clone ta'veren are boring and not worth writing about. Why not have one with different abilities?

[OptimusPrime]

You are basically suggesting that all ta'veren are exactly the the same in luck power when they are clearly not, any more than everyone with the one power has the same Talents or abilities

 

Except I acknowledged the difference in strength levels. I know Mat is weaker than Mat and Hawkwing. Im just saying that neither Rand or Perrin shows any sign of figuring out when their Ta'verenism kicks in.

 

This is how I think of it. Mats abnormal luck is instantaneous, affecting only things that involve him specifically. He throws a die, or gets someone else to, and it goes in Mats favor far more frequently than usual. Rand, Mat and Ta'verenisms become apparant when it has finished, but can be traced back a long while. Example-Mats luck wont make the right person find him, because there are too many things that could distract someone along the way. It would be his Ta'veren twist, not purely random out of the blue luck, that would draw that someone to him just like Rand and Perrin. It isnt Mats luck that got the band to go with him. The luck might make them remember him, but his Ta'verenism caused the Band to become solid, just like Ta'verenism made people follow Perrin, and made certain Aes Sedai swear to Rand.

 

Why have we only seen luck on this level around Mat, and not Rand, the stronger Ta'veren? Rands twists alter the Pattern, not purely random events. Peopel marrying in a vilage the has had few marrriage is not pure chance-for it to be pure chance, Rand would have to have something like the people spinning on the spot and stopping looking at the person they would marry. He doesnt do that though, which is why he as a stronger Ta'veren doesnt have Mats luck.

 

It came from a source meant to fight the Dark One-Shadar Logoth

[The Fisher King]

Prime said something I found interesting:

 

Yet Hawkwings luck affected cards as much as dice or so it seems, making him different from Mat. His affected cards even though there is a more set outcome than with dice. Mat has one, not both, which is worth noting. Why would Mat have only part of Hawkwings "luck" but not all of it? Because they are from different sources.

 

Exactly correct. What I always found VERY cool and impressive about Mat though, is the fact that he is pretty much Top-Notch in Cards and Horse Racing too though - even though he has no ''Built-In'' Advantages, if you know what I mean.

 

He wins at Cards because he learned how to be a Damned Good Card Player...He is great at The Races because he learned Horses from Abell Cauthon, one of the most knowledgable people of Horse-Flesh around.

 

 

In other words, whe he has no special advantage available to him, Mat ADAPTS, and, imo, THAT is his greatest strength - and what makes him such a good General...much seen in the battles in FOH and KOD...

 

JMO

 

 

Fish

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

You are basically suggesting that all ta'veren are exactly the the same in luck power when they are clearly not, any more than everyone with the one power has the same Talents or abilities

 

Except I acknowledged the difference in strength levels. I know Mat is weaker than Mat and Hawkwing. Im just saying that neither Rand or Perrin shows any sign of figuring out when their Ta'verenism kicks in.

 

It's not an accident that they're not figuring it out. Rand has other priorities; Perrin would not ever allow himself to be flown around by the seat of his pants (aka the Pattern) and be guided like that. Mat, OTOH, lives that way.

 

It would be his Ta'veren twist, not purely random out of the blue luck, that would draw that someone to him just like Rand and Perrin. It isnt Mats luck that got the band to go with him. The luck might make them remember him, but his Ta'verenism caused the Band to become solid, just like Ta'verenism made people follow Perrin, and made certain Aes Sedai swear to Rand.

 

In point of fact, no kind of luck - ta'veren, dark or otherwise- had anything to do with making the Band go with him or become a solid force. Ta'veren brought the kind of people he needed to him, Mat's natural charisma, battle luck, and skills made that into something more. 

 

Why have we only seen luck on this level around Mat, and not Rand, the stronger Ta'veren?

 

Mind quoting some specific examples? Like I said, I don't recall much of anything that can't be attributed to something else other than the "accident" of luck.

 

Rands twists alter the Pattern, not purely random events. Peopel marrying in a vilage the has had few marrriage is not pure chance-for it to be pure chance, Rand would have to have something like the people spinning on the spot and stopping looking at the person they would marry. He doesnt do that though, which is why he as a stronger Ta'veren doesnt have Mats luck.

 

His ta'veren and I think Mat's, don't work that way on people. There is a balance in the luck that results from chance, but it doesn't counter itself right off the bat.

 

[devinS]

I'm not sure if this idea has been posted elsewhere or already DQd by RJ, but I read through this thread and didn't see it mentioned. I believe Mat's luck is the result of a ter' angreal. In TDR when Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne are reading the list of ter' angreal that were stolen by the Black Ajah, they mention one that Mat would love.

 

Nynaeve carried the smoothed-out pages to the table and set them down. She hesitated before

spreading the others out and running her finger down one page, then the next. “Here’s one Mat would

enjoy,” she said in a voice much too light and airy. “Item. A carved cluster of six spotted dice, joined at

the corners, less than two inches across. Use unknown, save that channeling through it seems to suspend

chance in some way, or twist it.” She began to read aloud. “ ‘Tossed coins presented the same face

every time, and in one test landed balanced on edge one hundred times in a row. One thousand tosses of

the dice produced five crowns one thousand times.’ “ She gave a forced laugh. “Mat would love that. “

 

I realize that Mat cannot channel, but there could be a similar ter' angreal that doesn't require channeling.  There are several points while Mat is "sick" that one of the Aes Sedia could have planted this ter' angreal in his possesion (For instance, replacing his dice/dice cup with the ter' angreal).  Why they would want to do this I have no idea.  Also, I seem to remember Mat tossing a coin and it landing on its edge and he blames Rand for channeling or causing the coin to do it.  This doesn't explain why Mat is lucky before this, but it could be just natural luck.  To me it makes sense because his luck expands to unnatural amounts after his Healing.