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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

When exactly were the Forsaken released...?


Dagan
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I'm having trouble understanding when the Forsaken were released exactly?  It's unclear whether Ishamael was never sealed, or if he was only partially sealed.  I've only read through the series one time, having jsut finished KoD a few weeks ago, so maybe i'm not remembering properly.  I'd also like to note that I haven't read the prequel: A New Spring

 

Well what triggered their release?   Was it rand's birth?  Did they "wake up" one at a time, like one every few years or so?   I always assumed they've been awake in this world for quite some time, unless by some miraculous coincidence they woke up at the same time the book began, with the dragon reborn being 20 years old?

 

I like to think that they've been free from their prison for at least a few years.  Or at least that Ishamael was free years ahead of the others.  Padan Fain had been going to the two rivers for years, he must have been tasked with trying to find the Dragon Reborn or at least was tasked to find boys of a certain age. And he did narrow it down to rand, perrin, or mat, since the trollocs only attacked those 3.  The forsaken had to be free to hear the prophecy(that moiraine and Siuan heard) that the dragon had been reborn. Why else would the trollocs have attacked Emonds Field like that, and narrowed it down to rand mat or perrin? How does the shadow even know the Dragon has been reborn, (and not proclaimed himself yet).

 

The rebellion in Caemlyn with all the people who wore red or white based on whether they supported the queen or not was occuring during the first book.  We know Rahvin quelled that rebellion, and that's how he got close to Morgase to be able to take over Andor. I assume that he was the one who started the little rebellion in the first place. So if that is the case, then that means Rahvin was free at least before any of the Emond's Fielders reached Caemlyn.

 

Anyone have any solid information to prove me wrong or right(or close)? or their own theories about when exactly in the new age did the forsaken awake from their prison?

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I have no idea, i'd always assumed that Aginor and balthamel had been released and then immediately went to Rand to stop him using the Eye, and the other forsaken awoke gradually over the next few months. But i suppose your right, and maybe Agy and Bally had just coincedently been the first to reach the Eye. But if the other male forsaken were awake, how come they hadn't sensed the amount of the Power that rand had used and rushed to kill him.

 

Ps: Apparently Ishy had only been half-sealed in the bore, and was driven insane by it. Apparently he was released every so-many years but was pulled back after a while. He apparently caused the Trolloc Wars, and convinced Hawking to hate Aes Sedai, which is what killed him in the end, and started the War of a Hundred Years.

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Ishamael was never fully bound. He gained freedom on forty year cycles at various stages throughout history (for instance he was present in Artur Hawkwing's court). His most recent completely free cycle was about fifteen years prior to the beginning of the first book when he physically kills Jarna Milari for her ordering the death of Tamra Ospenya and initiating the search and destroy mission.

 

When he gained full freedom is uncertain--he was still partially sealed at the time Rand and co. entered Shadar Logoth. My guess is he gained his full freedom around the same time, or just prior to Aginor and Balthemel.

 

Which, by the way, is how we know Aginor and Balthamel gained their freedom just prior to events in the Eye of the World. Ishamael was closer to the surface than they were, but was still bound a little over a month prior to that. They were next closest to the surface after him, but all of the rest were free by the beginning of book three.

 

Well what triggered their release?  Was it rand's birth?  Did they "wake up" one at a time, like one every few years or so?  I always assumed they've been awake in this world for quite some time, unless by some miraculous coincidence they woke up at the same time the book began, with the dragon reborn being 20 years old?

 

It wasn't a coincidence. That was when the Dark One first began gathering himself (as noticed by the winter), and presumably when the first seal began to weaken or crack.

 

The rebellion in Caemlyn with all the people who wore red or white based on whether they supported the queen or not was occuring during the first book.  We know Rahvin quelled that rebellion, and that's how he got close to Morgase to be able to take over Andor. I assume that he was the one who started the little rebellion in the first place. So if that is the case, then that means Rahvin was free at least before any of the Emond's Fielders reached Caemlyn.

 

Not so, the 'rebellion' began as civil unrest over the ongoing winter.

 

 

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Ishamael was never fully bound. He gained freedom on forty year cycles at various stages throughout history (for instance he was present in Artur Hawkwing's court).

Where did this 40 year cycle information come from? I remember at one point he said " I was never bound"  I think it was in the Prologue to Eye of the World, though I don't have TEotW with me at this time, so I can't check it. Him being present during Artur Hawkwing's time doesn't distinguish whether he has been 100% free these last 3000 years, or if it's the 40 year cycle thingy.

 

When he gained full freedom is uncertain--he was still partially sealed at the time Rand and co. entered Shadar Logoth. My guess is he gained his full freedom around the same time, or just prior to Aginor and Balthemel.
  How do you know he was still partially sealed at the time Rand and Co. enetered Shadar Logoth?

 

 

 

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Well what triggered their release?   Was it rand's birth?  Did they "wake up" one at a time, like one every few years or so?   I always assumed they've been awake in this world for quite some time, unless by some miraculous coincidence they woke up at the same time the book began, with the dragon reborn being 20 years old?

 

It wasn't a coincidence. That was when the Dark One first began gathering himself (as noticed by the winter), and presumably when the first seal began to weaken or crack.

 

Well it was a coincidence that the Dark one began gathering himself 19-20 years after the Dragon Reborn had been born on the slopes of Dragonmount?    

 

 

 

 

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Well it was a coincidence that the Dark one began gathering himself 19-20 years after the Dragon Reborn had been born on the slopes of Dragonmount?   

 

No, it's far more likely that Rand was spun out in response to the seals weakening to the point that the Dark One would begin to manifest himself--around the same time Rand would begin to manifest himself.

 

Quote from: Luckers on September 07, 2009, 11:05:51 PM

Ishamael was never fully bound. He gained freedom on forty year cycles at various stages throughout history (for instance he was present in Artur Hawkwing's court).

 

Where did this 40 year cycle information come from? I remember at one point he said " I was never bound"  I think it was in the Prologue to Eye of the World, though I don't have TEotW with me at this time, so I can't check it. Him being present during Artur Hawkwing's time doesn't distinguish whether he has been 100% free these last 3000 years, or if it's the 40 year cycle thingy.

 

RJ stated it, but thats lost for the time being in the fall of wotmania.

 

We do, however, have two bits from the Guide which clearly show the forty years as being relevant.

 

Aran son of Malan son of Senar, states "there were sightings of, even encounters with, Ishamael after the Bore was sealed, in fact perhaps as much as forty years after."

 

Then, on Moerad, Hawkwing's advisor. "Moerad never aged from the day he first appeared to the day he vanished, abruptly, some forty years later."

 

Quote

When he gained full freedom is uncertain--he was still partially sealed at the time Rand and co. entered Shadar Logoth. My guess is he gained his full freedom around the same time, or just prior to Aginor and Balthemel.

 

 

  How do you know he was still partially sealed at the time Rand and Co. enetered Shadar Logoth?

 

He appears as a flickering image, and struggles to maintain himself. We know from RJ that the bore was everywhere, and as such those bound were everywhere, which was how Aginor and Balthemels access to the world worked. There is no channeling basis for what Ishamael did, manifesting himself from his bound prison does.

 

 

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