Is moridin a fool or is shaitan clueless?

[Monitor]

Agree with Kadere regarding the Rand-Moridin connection.

 

I will cite some more supporting evidence regarding Rand being essentially invulnerable by being protected by the Pattern before TG.

 

I agree with FAQ that the Do Not Kill Rand order was actually removed in TPOD and not WH:

http://steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.4_whats-up-dark/1.4.10_kill-rand.html

 

During TPOD there were one near assassination attempt on Rand and a strange near death from a crossbow bolt due to "friendly" mistakes during the Seanchan campaign. Likely the darkfriend Asha'man, Dashiva, and possible darkfriend Weiramon were behind these. First, the general observation that it is strange that Rand managed to survive these traitors so near him during a confused battlefield. Second, this specific situation:

 

Rand should have died. At that range, a boy could have hit his target. Maybe being ta'veren saved him. As the archer let fly, a covey of gray-winged quail burst up almost at his feet uttering piercing whistles. Not enough to throw off an experienced man, and indeed, the fellow only flinched a hair. Rand felt the wind of the arrow's passage against his cheek.

 

Other very unlikely survivals are from the early books when Rand fought Blademasters and won. Or managing to defeat several of the Forsaken by using the One Power before receiving any training and before LTT was present to any significant degree. Just bad, typical heroic fantasy writing or something more?

 

Evidence for power and preordained plan of the Pattern can be seen in the prophecies which have never, as far we know, failed. Rand will be at TG and killing him before this is essentially impossible. The best the DO or anyone else can do before this is creating chaos around Rand.

[OptimusPrime]

Are you talking about the KoD order which is MONTHS after the bond?

 

Yes, thats what Im talking about. It doesnt matter how long after it is. Do you think Moridin would run round all the Forsaken shouting "Wait! Stop! Dont kill him!" He might still plan on killing Rand but I would wager he wants to sort out the connection first, which is why he says to the others to let Moridin kill him. How to convince them? Tell them to go to the easier targets, the ones that they think cant fight back.

[Monitor]

Are you talking about the KoD order which is MONTHS after the bond?

 

Yes, thats what Im talking about. It doesnt matter how long after it is. Do you think Moridin would run round all the Forsaken shouting "Wait! Stop! Dont kill him!" He might still plan on killing Rand but I would wager he wants to sort out the connection first, which is why he says to the others to let Moridin kill him. How to convince them? Tell them to go to the easier targets, the ones that they think cant fight back.

Why did not Moridin not explicitly prohibit Kisman from killing Rand? Or more generally, why not issue the order much earlier, as soon as the connection with Rand become apparent? Why should crossing balefire work like the warder side of a warder bond? It does not duplicate other effects such as knowing the direction of the other person's location. Also, seems extremely risky to directly disobey the DO, Shaidar Haran is moving about pretty freely now and interacting with the Forsaken and would not unlikely learn of such a major disobediance.

[Luckers]

What? The no kill order goes into effect in LoC, correct? We're all agreed on that? That's what the DO says to Demandred, "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" and then he goes and tells the rest of the Forsaken, except for Sammael. Right? We agree that's when the no kill order first came about? Ok.

 

If you look closely you'll see what I said was the reiteration of the no-kill order. The no-kill order goes out the window somewhere towards the end of tPoD, and stays out the window until KoD.

 

Where is the second order not to kill him about Rand's bond? Are you talking about the KoD order which is MONTHS after the bond? And Moridin, as far as we can tell, still plans on killing Rand at the end of KoD, so I don't see the bond keeping him from doing anything.

 

Yes, that is what we are talking about. Though, again, as i commented in my first post, this reiteration of the no-kill order comes around the same time the link stabalizes enough for Moridin to understand what it was. Prior to that Moridin, going by what Rand experienced, only felt a nausea when channeling. It was not until the link grew strong enough for connections to begin forming that he would have had any reason to suspect there even was a link.

 

So yes, the timing does fit. As for you comment about Moridin still planning to kill Rand, all he says is that 'he would choose the time of Rand's death' which would be some time after Moridin had figured out a way to safely break the bond.

 

Why did not Moridin not explicitly prohibit Kisman from killing Rand? Or more generally, why not issue the order much earlier, as soon as the connection with Rand become apparent? .

 

Moridin would not yet realise the depths of the connection, and thus the potential danger. He likely simply thought the channeling sickness was a result of injury taken in the crossed balefire streams and didn't realise there was a connection established at all, so killing Rand presents no issue.

 

These new no-kill order coincides with around the same time Rand percieves the connection for what it is. Moridin had no more information than Rand did--possibly even less given he gave over use of saidin in order to escape the channeling sickness. Oh you might try to claim that Moridin, being trained in the Age of Legends, might have realised the signs of soul-linking earlier than backwards-Rand, but Moridin himself dismisses that idea.

 

Those Warders and the bond they shared with their Aes Sedai. He had known of that for a long, long time, but whenever he thought he had the measure of them, these primitives revealed some new skill, did something that no one in his own Age had dreamed of. Something the pinnacle of civilization had not known! What had the girl done?

 

Soul-linking was something no one in his own age had even dreamed of, so he'd be running on the same thing Rand is--perception and guess-work.

 

Why should crossing balefire work like the warder side of a warder bond? It does not duplicate other effects such as knowing the direction of the other person's location. Also, seems extremely risky to directly disobey the DO, Shaidar Haran is moving about pretty freely now and interacting with the Forsaken and would not unlikely learn of such a major disobediance

 

No one is suggesting this link is the warder bond, but that being said this link is growing increasingly strong--in many ways it is now even stronger than the warder bond, allowing thoughts to cross, and even suggesting that Rand and Moridin could reach out and touch each other through the link.

 

Moridin, lacking any other information to go on, would have to consider the warder bond. It is the only similar situation he has access to. In effect he HAS to be concerned about what would happen if this link snapped given that the only other link that is even remotely similar can cause death when snapped. Especially when that link is weaker in style.

 

As for disobeying the Dark One. That would be dangerous, and I doubt he'd plan on letting Rand live for ever--and maybe if it came to the hilt and Moridin had to decide between the success of the Shadow and the risks of snapping the link he might snap the link. Moridin seems to be a true believer--but he also cares for himself. Until that decision is forced he would put it off and search for a way to safely break the link, after which he would kill Rand.

 

But that being said, who said it was a major disobedience. There is no indication that the Dark One instructed that Rand die--he commanded that the cleansing be stopped, and that Rand die if need be, but nothing straight up about him needing to die for the purpose of him dying. Moridin issueing the command to leave Rand to him is not nessasarily disobeying the Dark One, but it is being self-serving which could be just as dangerous if the Dark One learns of it. 

[sheikh chilli]

Its called self preservation sheikh. Moridin changes his mind and issues the second order not to kill him because he might be harmed by Rands death, because of the connection.

 

 

err you do realise that he never did attack rand when he first met him when the battle with sammael was going on? infact that balefire connection happened way past that?

 

he could have blown rand's head off the moment he met him. rand was too occupied with sammael. all it would have taken is one whiff of balefire from true source and it would have been too late for rand.

 

fact is moridin didnt attack rand and even helped him a little as well.

 

dumb ass order of not to kill rand will haunt shaitan and moridin

[The Desert Pea]

Its called self preservation sheikh. Moridin changes his mind and issues the second order not to kill him because he might be harmed by Rands death, because of the connection.

 

 

err you do realise that he never did attack rand when he first met him when the battle with sammael was going on? infact that balefire connection happened way past that?

 

he could have blown rand's head off the moment he met him. rand was too occupied with sammael. all it would have taken is one whiff of balefire from true source and it would have been too late for rand.

 

fact is moridin didnt attack rand and even helped him a little as well.

 

dumb ass order of not to kill rand will haunt shaitan and moridin

 

He was simply following orders at this point. Had he gone and killed Rand, the DO would have blasted Moridin out of existence. Rand was allowed to live from LoC-tPoD because he was doing the Forsaken's job for them. His revealing to the entire world was causing mass chaos and panic, the nations were split against each other, and the Forsaken could safely sit behind scenes until the time to strike was right. Things obviously changed when the assassination attempt in tPoD happens and Rand starts to move towards the Cleansing, but up until then killing Rand wasn't a part of the plan. You act like the Shadow is mentally retarded and has absolutely no plan whatsoever, that they're just winging it. Anyone can obviously see that this is not the case.

 

Yes, Moridin could have easily killed Rand while he was fighting Sammael. He had specific orders not to do so though, and further more Sammael was breaking these orders himself by attacking Rand. At the time, Moridin needed to help Rand if he wished to stay in the DO's favor. For whatever the reason, the no kill order came from the DO himself, and I certainly wouldn't call him a brainless fool, so stop acting like that's the case. I'm beginning to wonder if you even like the series at all, because all you seem to do is complain about every single character and plot event.

[Kadere]

These new no-kill order coincides with around the same time Rand percieves the connection for what it is. Moridin had no more information than Rand did--possibly even less given he gave over use of saidin in order to escape the channeling sickness. Oh you might try to claim that Moridin, being trained in the Age of Legends, might have realised the signs of soul-linking earlier than backwards-Rand, but Moridin himself dismisses that idea.

 

I wouldn't claim that, but I might claim that Moridin would have been at an advantage on recognizing Rand's face for what it was long before Rand recognized Moridin. Moridin knows Rand's face probably better than he knows his new face. Rand doesn't recognize Moridin's face at first, because he only met him the one time. But I would bet Moridin would recognize Rand in a flash. And if he put two and two together he'd know about the bond before Rand. I still say he seems to still be set on killing Rand, and with as nuts as Moridin is, he might not care about dying in the process. And we know from Aran'gar, at least, that not all the Forsaken are going to back off. Though Semirhage appears to have for now.

[Monitor]

Agree with with Kadere.

 

Also, any risk seems very hypothetical. A first-wife bond is not dangerous. The Aes Sedai do not die from their warder bond. Rand does not worry that Mar or Perrin being killed will kill himself due to the warder side of a warder bond effect. Rand cannot sense Moridin's feelings or state of health like a warder which likely contributes to the strong emotional bonding. Furthermore, if Moridin dies, he can be resurrected.

 

On the other hand, that Shaidar Haran and the DO  will eventually learn of this from one the Forsaken seems very likely, even if Rand dies quickly for some other reason this order is not something likely to be forgotten by the other Forsaken, and the chance that the DO does not care very, very greatly about his exact orders regarding his most dangerous opponent seems very slim.

 

I think the theory I presented regarding Rand being essentially invulnerable due to being Ta'veren explains the kill/do not kill order much better and many other strange happenings in the books as well.

[OptimusPrime]

Quote

Those Warders and the bond they shared with their Aes Sedai. He had known of that for a long, long time, but whenever he thought he had the measure of them, these primitives revealed some new skill, did something that no one in his own Age had dreamed of. Something the pinnacle of civilization had not known! What had the girl done?

 

 

Luckers, thats a quote from when Aviendha unravelled her gateway. It has nothing to do with Moridins connection to Rand at all. Yes, in AoL they had no Warder bond, but dude, you used an irrelevent quote to further your point.

 

Its called self preservation sheikh. Moridin changes his mind and issues the second order not to kill him because he might be harmed by Rands death, because of the connection.

 

 

err you do realise that he never did attack rand when he first met him when the battle with sammael was going on? infact that balefire connection happened way past that?

 

he could have blown rand's head off the moment he met him. rand was too occupied with sammael. all it would have taken is one whiff of balefire from true source and it would have been too late for rand.

 

fact is moridin didnt attack rand and even helped him a little as well.

 

dumb ass order of not to kill rand will haunt shaitan and moridin

 

Fact is you arent thinking enough to actually understand why they change the order. Thats why you're ridiculing it; because you dont understand it.

 

[Braus]

The dark one doesnt have to be some almighty god, he is trapped in his prison and can only do so much. Shadar haran/Moridin seems to be the closest persons he can actually use, who knows maybe the dark one is apart of one or the other.

 

This isnt a war where humans fight a god, its more a war where humans fights other humans and their "creations". You cant break it all down after reading the books in just pure logics, its like giving strong opinions on what horse to bet on after the horses have gone in goal.

 

The dark one might be something the creator did, or some sort of parasite that is trying to get into the world. To actually break the wheel like they keep nagging about, you'd have to do something to unbalance it.

I can think of two things, like some say either turn the dragon and fuck up the whole rebirthing each 3000 odd years, or prolong the last battle, that is keep Rand occupied and busy with being "perfectly" ready for a fight he got no idea how to win and let time tick away.

It seems Rand has to fullfill certain things, and he proberly have to do it within a timeframe - which is why he proberly is going to break the seals himself at some critical moment. Dunno just guesses, not really a religious or philosophical person and i havent read that much about the whole "wheel of time" phiolosphy of tages coming and going, and what kind of "natural laws" might be involved in it.

 

On a side note its not that easy to kill Rand. For example the shadow is pretty bad ass, but they dont really work as a team like the few friends Rand has(does he trust, does he think he can trust, and does who just follow him because they believe he is their leader) Rand isnt that well protected, but he is still pretty strong.

[Luckers]

These new no-kill order coincides with around the same time Rand percieves the connection for what it is. Moridin had no more information than Rand did--possibly even less given he gave over use of saidin in order to escape the channeling sickness. Oh you might try to claim that Moridin, being trained in the Age of Legends, might have realised the signs of soul-linking earlier than backwards-Rand, but Moridin himself dismisses that idea.

 

I wouldn't claim that, but I might claim that Moridin would have been at an advantage on recognizing Rand's face for what it was long before Rand recognized Moridin. Moridin knows Rand's face probably better than he knows his new face. Rand doesn't recognize Moridin's face at first, because he only met him the one time. But I would bet Moridin would recognize Rand in a flash. And if he put two and two together he'd know about the bond before Rand.

 

Actually the quotes quite clearly state that Rand doesn't recognise Moridin's face at first because it is blurry.

 

Here are the four times it is referenced.

 

He turned toward the window, to fetch the leather scrip, and a wave of dizziness hit him. Knees turning to water, he stumbled. A shimmering face he could not make out flashed through his head.

[WH-Prologue-Snow]

 

Suddenly a wave of dizziness hit him, a murky face filling his vision for an instant, and he staggered against a passerby.

[WH-22-Out of Thin Air]

 

he took hold of the Source again, but a different dizziness suddenly spun his head. For a heartbeat, a vague face filled his eyes

 

[WH-35-With the Choedan Kal]

 

He no longer feared killing Min or Elayne or Aviendha any more than he feared going mad. Madder than he already was, at least, with a dead man in his head, and sometimes a foggy face he could almost recognize

[CoT-24-A Strengthening Storm]

 

 

The very second the face becomes clear Rand recognises it.

 

Abruptly another image was floating in his head, a man's face, and his breath caught. For the first time, it came without any dizziness. For the first time he could see it clearly in the moments before it vanished. A blue-eyes man with a square chin, perhaps a few years older than himself. Or rather, he saw it clearly for the first time in a long while. It was the fact of the stranger who had saved his life in Shadar Logoth when he fought Sammael.

[KoD-18-News for the Dragon]

 

So--no, Moridin does not have reason to recognise Rand's face, especially given he gives up saidin and thus is less likely to be directly exposed to the link.

 

I still say he seems to still be set on killing Rand, and with as nuts as Moridin is, he might not care about dying in the process. And we know from Aran'gar, at least, that not all the Forsaken are going to back off. Though Semirhage appears to have for now.

 

He is set on killing Rand--yet he states he will do it on his time, and stops other from doing it--because whilst he does want to kill Rand, he also wants to do it without risking death himself.

 

Also, any risk seems very hypothetical. A first-wife bond is not dangerous. The Aes Sedai do not die from their warder bond. Rand does not worry that Mar or Perrin being killed will kill himself due to the warder side of a warder bond effect. Rand cannot sense Moridin's feelings or state of health like a warder which likely contributes to the strong emotional bonding. Furthermore, if Moridin dies, he can be resurrected.

 

Yes, because philosophers never think in hypothetical terms. Moridin has been bound to his enemy in a link that is growing increasingly strong. His only reference point is the warder bond, which can result in death when broken (we do not know if he is aware of the first-sister bond, which is, I presume, what you meant, but even if he is it is irrelevant--that one such soul-bonding can cause death when broken is a reason for him to fear it. And it would occur to him.

 

Which is the response to your other point. These questions would occur to Moridin. That is both in his nature, and in his educational background. Rand not thinking them is irrelevant. And Rand may not sense his feelings--but who cares. No one suggested this was a warder bond in disguise. Rand's perceptions of Moridin through his link go far deeper than a warder bond. 'Without any doubt he was aware of Rand in that moment, and Rand of him. Move a hair in any direction and they would touch. No more than a hair.'

 

On the other hand, that Shaidar Haran and the DO  will eventually learn of this from one the Forsaken seems very likely, even if Rand dies quickly for some other reason this order is not something likely to be forgotten by the other Forsaken, and the chance that the DO does not care very, very greatly about his exact orders regarding his most dangerous opponent seems very slim.

 

Again, I never said that the order would be forgotten. Simply ordering the Forsaken not to kill Rand is not an act of betrayal. Doing so out of personal interest is, and that is a danger should the Dark One realise--but Moridin is in a tough position. Rock/hard place kind of moment. It makes sense for him to choose to delay killing Rand so he can find a way to deal with both problems.

 

Quote

Quote

Those Warders and the bond they shared with their Aes Sedai. He had known of that for a long, long time, but whenever he thought he had the measure of them, these primitives revealed some new skill, did something that no one in his own Age had dreamed of. Something the pinnacle of civilization had not known! What had the girl done?

 

Luckers, thats a quote from when Aviendha unravelled her gateway. It has nothing to do with Moridins connection to Rand at all. Yes, in AoL they had no Warder bond, but dude, you used an irrelevent quote to further your point.

 

Actually mate, I didn't. That quote directly states that no one in the Age of Legends even dreamed of such soul-links being possible. In answer to the oft-repeated 'well the Forsaken know better' response, to which I cited it, it is very relevant. This comment not only proves that Moridin had no training in or about soul-linking, but the tone of it shows Moridin's ongoing surprise at such a discovery, indicating an ongoing lack of personal knowledge on the issue.

 

In effect the point of that quote, as I stated, was that Moridin would have no basis to be extra perceptive compared to Rand as to what was occuring when the channeling sickness began.

 

But thanks for the casual derision. Much appreciated.

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

Ah, I see. I was mislead because the part you meant was at the start of the quote. Apologies.

 

If you think that was derision though, you havent seen a thing yet  ;D

[sheikh chilli]

Its called self preservation sheikh. Moridin changes his mind and issues the second order not to kill him because he might be harmed by Rands death, because of the connection.

 

 

err you do realise that he never did attack rand when he first met him when the battle with sammael was going on? infact that balefire connection happened way past that?

 

he could have blown rand's head off the moment he met him. rand was too occupied with sammael. all it would have taken is one whiff of balefire from true source and it would have been too late for rand.

 

fact is moridin didnt attack rand and even helped him a little as well.

 

dumb ass order of not to kill rand will haunt shaitan and moridin

 

He was simply following orders at this point. Had he gone and killed Rand, the DO would have blasted Moridin out of existence. Rand was allowed to live from LoC-tPoD because he was doing the Forsaken's job for them. His revealing to the entire world was causing mass chaos and panic, the nations were split against each other, and the Forsaken could safely sit behind scenes until the time to strike was right. Things obviously changed when the assassination attempt in tPoD happens and Rand starts to move towards the Cleansing, but up until then killing Rand wasn't a part of the plan. You act like the Shadow is mentally retarded and has absolutely no plan whatsoever, that they're just winging it. Anyone can obviously see that this is not the case.

 

Yes, Moridin could have easily killed Rand while he was fighting Sammael. He had specific orders not to do so though, and further more Sammael was breaking these orders himself by attacking Rand. At the time, Moridin needed to help Rand if he wished to stay in the DO's favor. For whatever the reason, the no kill order came from the DO himself, and I certainly wouldn't call him a brainless fool, so stop acting like that's the case. I'm beginning to wonder if you even like the series at all, because all you seem to do is complain about every single character and plot event.

 

 

fact. the DO is a brainless fool. the one person who can stop apparently is the dragon. and what does he do? gives out an order to not kill rand. and for what? to spread chaos? fool!  after they kill rand they can do whatever they want. and no one will stop them.

 

instead you have a dead sammael and a rand who has cleansed saidin. by the time they realised their folly and gave the order to let rand die, it was too late for them. the do and his minions have lost their chance

 

 

[sheikh chilli]

The dark one doesnt have to be some almighty god, he is trapped in his prison and can only do so much. Shadar haran/Moridin seems to be the closest persons he can actually use, who knows maybe the dark one is apart of one or the other.

 

This isnt a war where humans fight a god, its more a war where humans fights other humans and their "creations". You cant break it all down after reading the books in just pure logics, its like giving strong opinions on what horse to bet on after the horses have gone in goal.

 

The dark one might be something the creator did, or some sort of parasite that is trying to get into the world. To actually break the wheel like they keep nagging about, you'd have to do something to unbalance it.

I can think of two things, like some say either turn the dragon and fuck up the whole rebirthing each 3000 odd years, or prolong the last battle, that is keep Rand occupied and busy with being "perfectly" ready for a fight he got no idea how to win and let time tick away.

It seems Rand has to fullfill certain things, and he proberly have to do it within a timeframe - which is why he proberly is going to break the seals himself at some critical moment. Dunno just guesses, not really a religious or philosophical person and i havent read that much about the whole "wheel of time" phiolosphy of tages coming and going, and what kind of "natural laws" might be involved in it.

 

On a side note its not that easy to kill Rand. For example the shadow is pretty bad ass, but they dont really work as a team like the few friends Rand has(does he trust, does he think he can trust, and does who just follow him because they believe he is their leader) Rand isnt that well protected, but he is still pretty strong.

 

pfft,

 

rahvin almost had him. he killed mat and aviendha too. very unfortunate he ran into nynaeve. rand is vulnerable.

[Luckers]

Ah, I see. I was mislead because the part you meant was at the start of the quote. Apologies.

 

If you think that was derision though, you havent seen a thing yet 

 

I did say casual derision. Though moderationally speaking your responses should never be personal. Make the point you want to make without it being an attack.

 

Because I never attack people personally.

 

Really.

 

I'm a role model.

 

*sigh* You should still follow my somewhat hypocritical advice. It usually ends up with you looking stupid.

 

If it helps in the long run I have a tendency to embolden the specific part of a quote which I reguard as relevant. Also I usually summarise the relevance of the quote in relation to the point directly after the quotation.

 

 

But, if you ever truly wish to play at this game, fair warning--compared to me you're an arrogant amatuer.

 

Derision. It's fun!  ;D

 

 

[Braus]

The dark one doesnt have to be some almighty god, he is trapped in his prison and can only do so much. Shadar haran/Moridin seems to be the closest persons he can actually use, who knows maybe the dark one is apart of one or the other.

 

This isnt a war where humans fight a god, its more a war where humans fights other humans and their "creations". You cant break it all down after reading the books in just pure logics, its like giving strong opinions on what horse to bet on after the horses have gone in goal.

 

The dark one might be something the creator did, or some sort of parasite that is trying to get into the world. To actually break the wheel like they keep nagging about, you'd have to do something to unbalance it.

I can think of two things, like some say either turn the dragon and fuck up the whole rebirthing each 3000 odd years, or prolong the last battle, that is keep Rand occupied and busy with being "perfectly" ready for a fight he got no idea how to win and let time tick away.

It seems Rand has to fullfill certain things, and he proberly have to do it within a timeframe - which is why he proberly is going to break the seals himself at some critical moment. Dunno just guesses, not really a religious or philosophical person and i havent read that much about the whole "wheel of time" phiolosphy of tages coming and going, and what kind of "natural laws" might be involved in it.

 

On a side note its not that easy to kill Rand. For example the shadow is pretty bad ass, but they dont really work as a team like the few friends Rand has(does he trust, does he think he can trust, and does who just follow him because they believe he is their leader) Rand isnt that well protected, but he is still pretty strong.

 

pfft,

 

rahvin almost had him. he killed mat and aviendha too. very unfortunate he ran inot nynaeve. rand is vulnerable.

 

Everyone is vulnerable, else this whole story would be pretty pointless. But it is a difference to attack something with teeth alone.

 

I wouldnt say this whole not kill rand order is that missfitting in the books, that out of place of logics. Its not that big of a thing really, and there might be perfectly valid reason, more reasons than the ones we can think of right now ofc. More information that will surface in the coming books.

What, if im in the mood, makes me abit skeptical though is the whole way the DO runs his buisness, encouraging disagreement between his "leaders", wasting trollocks etc instead of saving them and building something truelly huge. He, or It doesnt seem to be all that interested in "winning" always. Maybe the DO isnt actually after what everyone thinks he is, maybe he just follows some natural way that the Creator are responsible for and just plays a part in the world, for some reason.

[sheikh chilli]

Fact is you arent thinking enough to actually understand why they change the order. Thats why you're ridiculing it; because you dont understand it.

 

yes. i am ridiculing the most retarded order ever seen in WOT when the DO gave the order not to kill rand. the fact that he changed his mind 2 books later shows that the shadow have no strategy and actually don't know what they are doing besides creating mischief and chaos.

 

in the end that's all they are capable of. a few fire crackers instead of big heavy handed bombs we were promised. the forsaken are getting killed or captured. their master does not know what he's doing and the naeblis.....well sometimes i do question whether he's ishy reborn or not.

 

the shadow members strikes me as one clueless bunch. not much of an enemy to fear.

[Braus]

the villians arent always the brightest :)

[Kadere]

These new no-kill order coincides with around the same time Rand percieves the connection for what it is. Moridin had no more information than Rand did--possibly even less given he gave over use of saidin in order to escape the channeling sickness. Oh you might try to claim that Moridin, being trained in the Age of Legends, might have realised the signs of soul-linking earlier than backwards-Rand, but Moridin himself dismisses that idea.

 

I wouldn't claim that, but I might claim that Moridin would have been at an advantage on recognizing Rand's face for what it was long before Rand recognized Moridin. Moridin knows Rand's face probably better than he knows his new face. Rand doesn't recognize Moridin's face at first, because he only met him the one time. But I would bet Moridin would recognize Rand in a flash. And if he put two and two together he'd know about the bond before Rand.

 

Actually the quotes quite clearly state that Rand doesn't recognise Moridin's face at first because it is blurry.

 

Here are the four times it is referenced.

 

He turned toward the window, to fetch the leather scrip, and a wave of dizziness hit him. Knees turning to water, he stumbled. A shimmering face he could not make out flashed through his head.

[WH-Prologue-Snow]

 

Suddenly a wave of dizziness hit him, a murky face filling his vision for an instant, and he staggered against a passerby.

[WH-22-Out of Thin Air]

 

he took hold of the Source again, but a different dizziness suddenly spun his head. For a heartbeat, a vague face filled his eyes

 

[WH-35-With the Choedan Kal]

 

He no longer feared killing Min or Elayne or Aviendha any more than he feared going mad. Madder than he already was, at least, with a dead man in his head, and sometimes a foggy face he could almost recognize

[CoT-24-A Strengthening Storm]

 

 

The very second the face becomes clear Rand recognises it.

 

Abruptly another image was floating in his head, a man's face, and his breath caught. For the first time, it came without any dizziness. For the first time he could see it clearly in the moments before it vanished. A blue-eyes man with a square chin, perhaps a few years older than himself. Or rather, he saw it clearly for the first time in a long while. It was the fact of the stranger who had saved his life in Shadar Logoth when he fought Sammael.

[KoD-18-News for the Dragon]

 

So--no, Moridin does not have reason to recognise Rand's face, especially given he gives up saidin and thus is less likely to be directly exposed to the link.

 

I simply disagree. Rand sees the face in WH, yes it's murky, but as you quoted that's when it starts to appear. And I would bet that if Moridin is seeing the same murky face of Rand he would know it was Rand. And if you're going to say that Moridin wouldn't see the face because he only uses the TP and that doesn't allow for him to feel sick, then chances are better he has no idea there's a link at all, since he's not feeling the effects.

 

I still say he seems to still be set on killing Rand, and with as nuts as Moridin is, he might not care about dying in the process. And we know from Aran'gar, at least, that not all the Forsaken are going to back off. Though Semirhage appears to have for now.

 

He is set on killing Rand--yet he states he will do it on his time, and stops other from doing it--because whilst he does want to kill Rand, he also wants to do it without risking death himself.

 

But he fails to stop others from doing it. Aran'gar still is set on killing him, most likely so are most of the other Forsaken. Along with whoever sent the Trolloc invasion in KoD.

 

[Luckers]

I simply disagree. Rand sees the face in WH, yes it's murky, but as you quoted that's when it starts to appear. And I would bet that if Moridin is seeing the same murky face of Rand he would know it was Rand. And if you're going to say that Moridin wouldn't see the face because he only uses the TP and that doesn't allow for him to feel sick, then chances are better he has no idea there's a link at all, since he's not feeling the effects.

 

I'm sorry--you simply disagree with my refutal of your claim that "Rand doesn't recognize Moridin's face at first, because he only met him the one time. But I would bet Moridin would recognize Rand in a flash. And if he put two and two together he'd know about the bond before Rand."

 

In spite of the stated quotes clearly showing--in Rands own words--that he does not clearly percieve the face until KoD?

 

As for the rest, I stated Moridin would be less likely to percieve instantly what the link was given his reduced use of saidin. Rand's progression begins with dizzyness when channeling, continues to percieving a faint face along with the dizzyness whilst channeling, to experiencing the face without channeling.

 

Logically, if Moridin was not channeling saidin, the link would only be fully realised by him when the progression reached the final stage and began activating without the use of saidin. Around the same time as Moridin re-issued the no-kill order. Prior to that Moridin only experienced the channeling sickness, and gave up--and that doesn't suggest a link, only damage resulting from the crossed balefire streams.

 

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I still say he seems to still be set on killing Rand, and with as nuts as Moridin is, he might not care about dying in the process. And we know from Aran'gar, at least, that not all the Forsaken are going to back off. Though Semirhage appears to have for now.

 

He is set on killing Rand--yet he states he will do it on his time, and stops other from doing it--because whilst he does want to kill Rand, he also wants to do it without risking death himself.

 

 

 

But he fails to stop others from doing it. Aran'gar still is set on killing him, most likely so are most of the other Forsaken. Along with whoever sent the Trolloc invasion in KoD.

 

He orders them not to, and they are nominally under his command. He is in fact quite emphatic on that issue, and even threatens Cyndane's soul over it. That the others are still set on killing Rand doesn't make his resolve weak, or tacitly imply his approval as you suggest. Indeed, Aran'gar specifically states her intention despite his.

 

 

[The Desert Pea]

Its called self preservation sheikh. Moridin changes his mind and issues the second order not to kill him because he might be harmed by Rands death, because of the connection.

 

 

err you do realise that he never did attack rand when he first met him when the battle with sammael was going on? infact that balefire connection happened way past that?

 

he could have blown rand's head off the moment he met him. rand was too occupied with sammael. all it would have taken is one whiff of balefire from true source and it would have been too late for rand.

 

fact is moridin didnt attack rand and even helped him a little as well.

 

dumb ass order of not to kill rand will haunt shaitan and moridin

 

He was simply following orders at this point. Had he gone and killed Rand, the DO would have blasted Moridin out of existence. Rand was allowed to live from LoC-tPoD because he was doing the Forsaken's job for them. His revealing to the entire world was causing mass chaos and panic, the nations were split against each other, and the Forsaken could safely sit behind scenes until the time to strike was right. Things obviously changed when the assassination attempt in tPoD happens and Rand starts to move towards the Cleansing, but up until then killing Rand wasn't a part of the plan. You act like the Shadow is mentally retarded and has absolutely no plan whatsoever, that they're just winging it. Anyone can obviously see that this is not the case.

 

Yes, Moridin could have easily killed Rand while he was fighting Sammael. He had specific orders not to do so though, and further more Sammael was breaking these orders himself by attacking Rand. At the time, Moridin needed to help Rand if he wished to stay in the DO's favor. For whatever the reason, the no kill order came from the DO himself, and I certainly wouldn't call him a brainless fool, so stop acting like that's the case. I'm beginning to wonder if you even like the series at all, because all you seem to do is complain about every single character and plot event.

 

 

fact. the DO is a brainless fool. the one person who can stop apparently is the dragon. and what does he do? gives out an order to not kill rand. and for what? to spread chaos? fool!  after they kill rand they can do whatever they want. and no one will stop them.

 

instead you have a dead sammael and a rand who has cleansed saidin. by the time they realised their folly and gave the order to let rand die, it was too late for them. the do and his minions have lost their chance

 

 

 

So you would charge head on at an enemy with the most powerful weapons ever created without weakening him from behind scenes first? Had the Forsaken come at Rand immediately after he had Callandor or the Choedan Kal, things would have turned out bad for them. Yes, the no kill order will probably hurt them in the end because they made a miscalculation for the best time to end it. It's stressed multiple times in the books that "no battle plan survives the first contact with the enemy." The plan didn't work out in the end, and now saidin is cleansed. Had it been pulled off successfully though, Rand would be in an even worse situation than he already is, if not dead and the DO's slave. Stop taking everything at face value and criticizing aspects you obviously don't understand or haven't thought all the way through. The no kill order wasn't stupid, it was actually a pretty good plan at the time. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that.

[Monitor]

Also, any risk seems very hypothetical. A first-wife bond is not dangerous. The Aes Sedai do not die from their warder bond. Rand does not worry that Mar or Perrin being killed will kill himself due to the warder side of a warder bond effect. Rand cannot sense Moridin's feelings or state of health like a warder which likely contributes to the strong emotional bonding. Furthermore, if Moridin dies, he can be resurrected.

 

Yes, because philosophers never think in hypothetical terms. Moridin has been bound to his enemy in a link that is growing increasingly strong. His only reference point is the warder bond, which can result in death when broken (we do not know if he is aware of the first-sister bond, which is, I presume, what you meant, but even if he is it is irrelevant--that one such soul-bonding can cause death when broken is a reason for him to fear it. And it would occur to him.

 

Which is the response to your other point. These questions would occur to Moridin. That is both in his nature, and in his educational background. Rand not thinking them is irrelevant. And Rand may not sense his feelings--but who cares. No one suggested this was a warder bond in disguise. Rand's perceptions of Moridin through his link go far deeper than a warder bond. 'Without any doubt he was aware of Rand in that moment, and Rand of him. Move a hair in any direction and they would touch. No more than a hair.'

 

On the other hand, that Shaidar Haran and the DO  will eventually learn of this from one the Forsaken seems very likely, even if Rand dies quickly for some other reason this order is not something likely to be forgotten by the other Forsaken, and the chance that the DO does not care very, very greatly about his exact orders regarding his most dangerous opponent seems very slim.

 

Again, I never said that the order would be forgotten. Simply ordering the Forsaken not to kill Rand is not an act of betrayal. Doing so out of personal interest is, and that is a danger should the Dark One realise--but Moridin is in a tough position. Rock/hard place kind of moment. It makes sense for him to choose to delay killing Rand so he can find a way to deal with both problems.

The connection with Rand seems much weaker than a warder bond. No knowledge of location, feelings, or state of health. A simple feeling that they could almost touch is unimpressive, I can feel the same and see in my mind the other person sometimes when talking to others intently on the phone.

 

No reply to that Moridin can simply be resurrected if killed if in the good grace of the DO while if the DO is displeased death will be final.

 

The small hypothetical risk of death until resurrected from breaking the connection is far outweighted by the great risk of permanent death from being detected by the DO. SH is rather freely now interacting with Forsaken who would not unlikely mention a prohibition against killing the main enemy sooner or later.

 

If the DO has ordered the main enemy killed, then revoking this is a betrayal of the first order. The DO has punished various Forsaken when they acted out against his orders regardless of their protests or attempts to debate the issue.

[Luckers]

The connection with Rand seems much weaker than a warder bond. No knowledge of location, feelings, or state of health. A simple "feeling" that they could almost touch is unimpressive, I can feel the same and see in my mind the other person sometimes when talking to others intently on the phone.

 

Really? You claim that "Without any doubt he was aware of Rand in that moment, and Rand of him. Move a hair in any direction and they would touch. No more than a hair." is weaker than the comparative bond sensation at a similar distance? Which is to say--nothing but a general sense that they are alive and of their direction.

 

Besides, who cares. No one claimed the link would exist in the same style, simply that Moridin's only precedent was the bond, and that currently the connection between the two is stronger.

 

No reply to that Moridin can simply be resurrected if killed if in the good grace of the DO while if the DO is displeased death will be final.

 

Could he? The effects of the soul-link may play on that. Besides given the time requirements for transmigration why would the Dark One bother? By the time Moridin returned Tarmon Gai'don would be done with.

 

You're also ignoring the obvious--what if Moridin fears the Dark One's paranoia. RJ directly stated that it had seen many Forsaken dead. Moridin being mentally linked to Rand completely provides for him being subverted in the Dark One's eyes. Moridin would definately be aware and afraid of this (they all were).

 

The small hypothetical risk of death until resurrected from breaking the connection is far outweighted by the great risk of permanent death from being detected by the D. SH is rather freely now interacting with Forsaken who would not unlikely mention a prohibition against killing the main enemy sooner or later.

 

Again and again I repeat, the prohibition against killing Rand is not disobedience to the Dark One's wishes--Moridin's comments to Kisman prove this. The Dark One commanded that Rand be stopped in the cleansing, not that he be killed. If he was killed so be it, but that was not the purpose.

 

The point you're trying to make is irrelevant. Moridin was not disobeying the Shadow. He was acting in self-interest, which ultimately could prove the same thing, but the Shadow would have to realise that, which was unlikely. In the mean time it gave him time to break the bond safely. He was, in the course of that time, acting perfectly within Shadow-peremeters.

 

If the DO has ordered the main enemy killed, then revoking this is a betrayal of the first order. The DO has punished various Forsaken when they acted out against his orders regardless of their protests or attempts to debate the issue.

 

The Dark One has made no such command.

[Monitor]

The connection with Rand seems much weaker than a warder bond. No knowledge of location, feelings, or state of health. A simple "feeling" that they could almost touch is unimpressive, I can feel the same and see in my mind the other person sometimes when talking to others intently on the phone.

 

Really? You claim that "Without any doubt he was aware of Rand in that moment, and Rand of him. Move a hair in any direction and they would touch. No more than a hair." is weaker than the comparative bond sensation at a similar distance? Which is to say--nothing but a general sense that they are alive and of their direction.

 

Besides, who cares. No one claimed the link would exist in the same style, simply that Moridin's only precedent was the bond, and that currently the connection between the two is stronger.

 

No reply to that Moridin can simply be resurrected if killed if in the good grace of the DO while if the DO is displeased death will be final.

 

Could he? The effects of the soul-link may play on that. Besides given the time requirements for transmigration why would the Dark One bother? By the time Moridin returned Tarmon Gai'don would be done with.

 

You're also ignoring the obvious--what if Moridin fears the Dark One's paranoia. RJ directly stated that it had seen many Forsaken dead. Moridin being mentally linked to Rand completely provides for him being subverted in the Dark One's eyes. Moridin would definately be aware and afraid of this (they all were).

 

The small hypothetical risk of death until resurrected from breaking the connection is far outweighted by the great risk of permanent death from being detected by the D. SH is rather freely now interacting with Forsaken who would not unlikely mention a prohibition against killing the main enemy sooner or later.

 

Again and again I repeat, the prohibition against killing Rand is not disobedience to the Dark One's wishes--Moridin's comments to Kisman prove this. The Dark One commanded that Rand be stopped in the cleansing, not that he be killed. If he was killed so be it, but that was not the purpose.

 

The point you're trying to make is irrelevant. Moridin was not disobeying the Shadow. He was acting in self-interest, which ultimately could prove the same thing, but the Shadow would have to realise that, which was unlikely. In the mean time it gave him time to break the bond safely. He was, in the course of that time, acting perfectly within Shadow-peremeters.

 

If the DO has ordered the main enemy killed, then revoking this is a betrayal of the first order. The DO has punished various Forsaken when they acted out against his orders regardless of their protests or attempts to debate the issue.

 

The Dark One has made no such command.

Yes, I can sometimes have a feeling of almost touching another person when talking to them on the phone. I have never felt that I had an inbuilt compass pointing to them, or knowing their health and emotions with certainty. Like Rand *knowing* that Alanna is sulking, for instance.

 

Now you are wildly speculating to save your argument and throwing in ad hoc claims about "effects of the soul-link" and "time requirements for transmigration" and "Moridin fears the Dark One's paranoia".

 

Could you please clarify you view? You first stated "the reiteration of the no-kill order makes no sense from the Shadow's perspective--but it does from Moridin's." If the OD has ordered Rand to be killed, then revoking this is a major betrayal. But this is apparently not your view. If the DO has ordered Rand to not be killed, then there would no conflict, so that is not your view either. Does this mean that you think the DO has forgotten to give any new orders regarding Rand after cleansing? Or that the DO said after the cleansing "Do whatever you feel like regarding Rand"? Please clarify your view.

[sheikh chilli]

Its called self preservation sheikh. Moridin changes his mind and issues the second order not to kill him because he might be harmed by Rands death, because of the connection.

 

 

err you do realise that he never did attack rand when he first met him when the battle with sammael was going on? infact that balefire connection happened way past that?

 

he could have blown rand's head off the moment he met him. rand was too occupied with sammael. all it would have taken is one whiff of balefire from true source and it would have been too late for rand.

 

fact is moridin didnt attack rand and even helped him a little as well.

 

dumb ass order of not to kill rand will haunt shaitan and moridin

 

He was simply following orders at this point. Had he gone and killed Rand, the DO would have blasted Moridin out of existence. Rand was allowed to live from LoC-tPoD because he was doing the Forsaken's job for them. His revealing to the entire world was causing mass chaos and panic, the nations were split against each other, and the Forsaken could safely sit behind scenes until the time to strike was right. Things obviously changed when the assassination attempt in tPoD happens and Rand starts to move towards the Cleansing, but up until then killing Rand wasn't a part of the plan. You act like the Shadow is mentally retarded and has absolutely no plan whatsoever, that they're just winging it. Anyone can obviously see that this is not the case.

 

Yes, Moridin could have easily killed Rand while he was fighting Sammael. He had specific orders not to do so though, and further more Sammael was breaking these orders himself by attacking Rand. At the time, Moridin needed to help Rand if he wished to stay in the DO's favor. For whatever the reason, the no kill order came from the DO himself, and I certainly wouldn't call him a brainless fool, so stop acting like that's the case. I'm beginning to wonder if you even like the series at all, because all you seem to do is complain about every single character and plot event.

 

 

fact. the DO is a brainless fool. the one person who can stop apparently is the dragon. and what does he do? gives out an order to not kill rand. and for what? to spread chaos? fool!  after they kill rand they can do whatever they want. and no one will stop them.

 

instead you have a dead sammael and a rand who has cleansed saidin. by the time they realised their folly and gave the order to let rand die, it was too late for them. the do and his minions have lost their chance

 

 

 

So you would charge head on at an enemy with the most powerful weapons ever created without weakening him from behind scenes first? Had the Forsaken come at Rand immediately after he had Callandor or the Choedan Kal, things would have turned out bad for them. Yes, the no kill order will probably hurt them in the end because they made a miscalculation for the best time to end it. It's stressed multiple times in the books that "no battle plan survives the first contact with the enemy." The plan didn't work out in the end, and now saidin is cleansed. Had it been pulled off successfully though, Rand would be in an even worse situation than he already is, if not dead and the DO's slave. Stop taking everything at face value and criticizing aspects you obviously don't understand or haven't thought all the way through. The no kill order wasn't stupid, it was actually a pretty good plan at the time. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that.

 

 

rand was not carrying the choedan kal or callandor in his battle with sammael. if moridin wanted rand dead he would have ambushed him and balefired him with the true source. he did not and he and his master continue to pay the price for it