the "vileness" after the Aiel War

[Piotr]

hello everybody

 

just reread the NS and got intrigued again by the actions of the black and red ayah's after the aiel war

there is a good summary here:

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.4_yore/2.4.11_vileness.html

 

 

But here comes my question: there are just so many referrals to this episode throughout the series that I was wondering if there isn't something more to it all. Gitara Moroso's involvement and foretellings thicken the plot even more.

 

Any big (or small) theories or ideas?

[BKVMC]

i believe the  Vileness they  speak of is the  deaths of 2 amrylins  and the  illegal  stilling of  men and of the  actions taken to  cover  up for the reds.

[Piotr]

yeah, I know what it is but I just had a feeling that this entire plotline might have an important tail.  RJ did make a lot a references about this and he scattered them all over the books.  Don't know what it could be, just makes me expect 'something'

[wite wo1f]

I also just read that again and was wondering if there was any concrete answers. I do not believe there are but I would like some more information than just the possiblity that it was about the Amyrlins dying and the men being stilled.

[Jameric]

i believe the  Vileness they  speak of is the  deaths of 2 amrylins  and the  illegal   stilling of  men and of the  actions taken to  cover  up for the reds.

 

I think that is part of it, I think she means the actions of the black ajah all together. The thing I think you left out would be the fact that they were killing any and every male alive that seemed to be lucky because they knew the dragon was reborn but not his age. So they were targeting anyone who seemed to possessed Tavern like qualities.

 

Just my opinion.

[Luckers]

The Vileness, such that Cadsuane speaks of, only covers the actions of the Red Ajah in stilling men on the spot, though alot more was going on that Cadsuane knew.

 

The full reality of what occured then is thus--the Black Ajah became suspicious of Tamra's actions and had her taken and tortured. During the torture they discovered that the Dragon had been born (but not when). They killed all of Tamra's searchers (that they knew of) and proceeded to search for the Dragon themselves.

 

Their search involved a hunt and destroy method. According to Siuan men who can channel usually are first known by displays of apparent luck, and as such they began killing anyone that seemed lucky (this idea is problematic given they go after an eight year old at one stage, but Siuan directly states it as being signs of channeling, not ta'verenism, that they are tracking).

 

Another part of this hunt and destroy mission was to induce the Reds into stilling men on the spot. This is the only aspect which Cadsuane and the other Aes Sedai are aware of, and it was this that they name the vileness.

 

Ultimately Ishamael heard of what was going on and was displeased so he killed Jarna Milari (the then head of the Black Ajah) and raised Alviarin. He put a stop of the Blacks search and destroy mission.

 

At the same time Sierin, who replaced Tamra as Amyrlin, was apparently searching for the Black Ajah (acting on information given to her by Siuan through the anonymous letter). Chesmal claims to have induced the Red into killing her (probably on the idea that Sierin was aware of their illegal search and destroy mission) which makes sense given Jarna had just been killed by Ishamael in such a dramatic fashion for having killed Tamra. My guess is that Duhara (who was Sierin's keeper) was the one that spilled the beans to Chesmal, and that Tsutama is the killer Chesmal induced.

 

In any case Sierin's replacement found out about the Red's search and destroy mission and banished the red Sitters in punishment, and things moved on.

[Kaznen]

 

At the same time Sierin, who replaced Tamra as Amyrlin, was apparently searching for the Black Ajah (acting on information given to her by Siuan through the anonymous letter). Chesmal claims to have induced the Red into killing her (probably on the idea that Sierin was aware of their illegal search and destroy mission) which makes sense given Jarna had just been killed by Ishamael in such a dramatic fashion for having killed Tamra. My guess is that Duhara (who was Sierin's keeper) was the one that spilled the beans to Chesmal, and that Tsutama is the killer Chesmal induced.

 

In any case Sierin's replacement found out about the Red's search and destroy mission and banished the red Sitters in punishment, and things moved on.

Were was this?  I'm not doubting you I just want to know where it was mentioned.

 

I agree that the reds were recruited into the search, Galina being the head of the red ajah, and Elidia sent the red gentlers to Owyn Merrilin then made sure Thom found out about the hunt.  He took off to help his nephew and his sudden absence drove a wedge between him and Morgase.  So Elidia used the "vileness" to get a political opponent out of the way.

 

That was what I focused on, not all the internal WT politics.  I think the whole thing will come to fruit after they rescue Moriane.  She'll tell Thom the information about his nephew that she promised him and he'll used the information to finish off Elidia as amrylin once and for all.

[Luckers]

Siuan tells Moiraine she left a note for Sierin about her suspisions about Meilyn's murder in New Spring chapter 18, and Chesmal has apprently been telling how she saved the Black by inciting the Red to kill Sierin, but the place we learn of it is in WH chapter 10 from Asne. We learn that Ishamael killed Jarna for her roll in Tamra's death in the aCoS prologue from Alviarin.

[Seaine Sedai]

We really have no way of knowing what Cadsuane actually knew back then and what not.

It seems a little odd that Cadsuane JUST HAPPENED to be staying in the same place as Merian and one of Tamra's "seekers" (whose name escapes me now but I know Merian murdered her on the way to Chachin where Moiraine and Lan were headed at the time)

Cadsuane has a nose for sniffing out adventure, and Gitara and Cadsuane probably (in terms relative to how long channelers live as opposed to the rest of the population) were not that big of a difference in age...and we KNOW that Gitara did some setting of events herself (ie Tigraine being send to the Waste to become a Maiden) due to Foretellings.  What's to say that she and Cadsuane had not been similar to Moiraine and Siuan in some great plan?  Cadsuane has not been very forthcoming about events in her life aside from that some "toothless wilder" taught her a thing or two so she could earn the hair ornaments and that she's had more adventures and dealt with more male channelers than any Red Sisters AND had more warders than probably any two Green sisters personally.

Anyway...this is all speculation on my part.  I don't really believe that Cadsuane and Gitara might have been in on some kind of personal conspiracy...but Cadsuane did mention by name in one sentence 2 of the searchers that Tamra had sent to look for Rand, and Tamra's biggest consultant before she died was Gitara.

 

I wouldn't actually be surprised if Gitara had had some Foretellings we were never told about but that Cads and Tamra knew of...some that might even involve Moiraine and that was why Cads took a personal interest in her (Cads doesn't seem to care two shakes one way or another at Nynaeve's potential, which is considerably more impressive than Moiraine's was, so I don't think that was what she was itnerested in even if she mentioned it as a "red herring" in that confrontation).

One other thing...in TGH when Moiraine and Siuan have their private convo, ONE  of them says "WE are in the prophesies"

We KNOW the oldest AS seem to have the most knowledge about what's in the prophecies and what those things might mean.  If Cads, Tamra, Gitara figured out that Moiraine and Siuan were in the prophecies...that might explain some things.  As far as I know, we haven't been shown in the prophesies where our most courageous Blue ladies are referenced, but it does seem like they got some special treatment from the Powers That Be at the time when they were raised that set them on this particular path to seek out Rand.

 

Okay, all of this would seem to be OT from what the Vileness is after the Aiel War...except that my original point is that we have no way of knowing what Cads did and didn't know at the time since the woman is about as tight-lipped as they come except for when it comes to her opinion.  Remember, it was the Reds that went on the search and destroy missions to Gentle men on the spot, and the AS that Cads asked "were you involved?" to were NOT Reds (I think both were Gray).  I think this is a way of Cads trying to seek out who is BA herself.  I mean really, the woman is about as subtle as a brick through a glass wall.

 

[Luckers]

We really have no way of knowing what Cadsuane actually knew back then and what not.

 

She didn't know what Moiraine was up to, for one.

 

It seems a little odd that Cadsuane JUST HAPPENED to be staying in the same place as Merian and one of Tamra's "seekers" (whose name escapes me now but I know Merian murdered her on the way to Chachin where Moiraine and Lan were headed at the time)

 

Her name was Larelle, and she was not one of Tamra's seekers. She was to travel with Merean to Chachin, but, according to Merean changed her plans (which may even be true).

 

Cadsuane has a nose for sniffing out adventure, and Gitara and Cadsuane probably (in terms relative to how long channelers live as opposed to the rest of the population) were not that big of a difference in age...and we KNOW that Gitara did some setting of events herself (ie Tigraine being send to the Waste to become a Maiden) due to Foretellings. 

 

Cadsuane does say she had some inkiling that Rand had been about, but that being said by your logic Romanda, Adeleas and Vandene should also have been involved.

 

but Cadsuane did mention by name in one sentence 2 of the searchers that Tamra had sent to look for Rand, and Tamra's biggest consultant before she died was Gitara.

 

Because of their strength. In a discussion of strength. Brought about by Moiraine's strength. She did not bring them up randomly, they fit the context.

 

I wouldn't actually be surprised if Gitara had had some Foretellings we were never told about but that Cads and Tamra knew of...some that might even involve Moiraine and that was why Cads took a personal interest in her (Cads doesn't seem to care two shakes one way or another at Nynaeve's potential, which is considerably more impressive than Moiraine's was, so I don't think that was what she was itnerested in even if she mentioned it as a "red herring" in that confrontation).

 

I doubt Cadsuane ignores it--she's certainly stated that she's aware of it, and that she knows the lessons Nynaeve needs to learn. But remember that Nynaeve is not an Aes Sedai in her eyes, and also that she has dedicated herself to Rand. Expressing overt interest in Nynaeve's life as a Aes Sedai would clearly show alternate agendas, and above all else that is what she must avoid in dealing with Rand, because it is exactly that that turns him against most Aes Sedai.

 

Which she knows, she stated as much.

 

 

[Seaine Sedai]

We really have no way of knowing what Cadsuane actually knew back then and what not.

 

She didn't know what Moiraine was up to, for one.

 

 

Not necessarily.  Cadsuane is the sort of person that asks you a question, not because she doesn't already know the answer, but she wants to see how you respond.  She likes catching people off guard, and she's very astute in the way she observes people.  I just reread that whole conversation and the tone of it to me has the ring of "I know what you're up to young lady, and you're probably right, but why don't you leave it to your elders, who are more capable at this time?"  Now, I COULD be wrong, but she did never actually SAY "Gee Moiraine, I dont' know what you're doing here, why don't you be a good girl and tell Aunty Cads so I can stop feeling suspicious about you and send you on your way to go be a better Aes Sedai?"

 

Cadsuane has a tendency to make other AS nervous, because you NEVER know which direction she's coming from.  You never know what she already knows and what she doesn't, and it makes them regard her as someone who is dangerous (well that combined with her way of dealing with people who she thinks are acting foolish).

 

Now, I'm not saying my new pet looney theory is the Cads/Tamra/Gitara conspiracy, all I'm saying is that I wouldn't be surprised if it came out, either.

 

And while I have to agree that people like Romanda, Adeleas, Vandene, etc might have had to be in on it as well...you also have to consider that none of them have taken much of a personal interest in things like the DR, so maybe not.  Romanda got a bee up her nose that she wasn't named Amyrlin and so retired, and Adeleas and Vandene decided to compile a bunch of info.  While those two knew a great deal of information, they also didn't seem to be the sharpest knives in the drawer about what they knew, either.

[Luckers]

Quote

She didn't know what Moiraine was up to, for one.

 

 

Not necessarily.  Cadsuane is the sort of person that asks you a question, not because she doesn't already know the answer, but she wants to see how you respond.  She likes catching people off guard, and she's very astute in the way she observes people.  I just reread that whole conversation and the tone of it to me has the ring of "I know what you're up to young lady, and you're probably right, but why don't you leave it to your elders, who are more capable at this time?"  Now, I COULD be wrong, but she did never actually SAY "Gee Moiraine, I dont' know what you're doing here, why don't you be a good girl and tell Aunty Cads so I can stop feeling suspicious about you and send you on your way to go be a better Aes Sedai?"

 

Cadsuane states that she didn't know what Moiraine was up to.

 

Once she had thought herself on the point of rooting out the Black only to watch her quarry slip through her fingers like smoke, her bitterest failure except possibly for failing to learn what Caraline Damodred's cousin had been up to in the Borderlands until the knowledge was years too late to do any good.

 

[WH-13-Wonderful News]

[Seaine Sedai]

 

Once she had thought herself on the point of rooting out the Black only to watch her quarry slip through her fingers like smoke, her bitterest failure except possibly for failing to learn what Caraline Damodred's cousin had been up to in the Borderlands until the knowledge was years too late to do any good.

 

[WH-13-Wonderful News]

 

I stand corrected.  So she knew something was up [with Moiraine] and felt it a personal failure that she didn't figure it out until way later.

That's not to say she didn't know about what had been going on w/ Tamra/Gitara around the times of their recent deaths, though.  If she was aware of the BA then she might have had an inkling about their involvement with the Vileness, as she calls it.  In all likelihood, she was too busy doing her Living Legend Business and actually didn't know, but she hasn't mentioned anything about Tamra or Gitara, that I can recall.