On the Seanchan attack of the White Tneower

[Hybrid]

I agree with RAND AL THOR.  I just don't see the Great Battle meaning Dumai's Wells.  Sure, that was a great battle, but it was not the Great Battle, which I take to refer to Tarmon Gai'dan, or more generally the struggle between the Shadow and the Light.  If/When the Dark One's prison is repaired, that struggle will be over.  There may still be Forsaken and Dreadlords and Shadowspawn around, but without the Dark One (or Ishamael) it's no longer the Great Battle between the Light and the Shadow.  Without the Dark One or Ishamael, I don't think the forces of the Shadow will be able to hold together.  Without that driving influence, all the Shadow's commanders will start looking to their own interests.  As for "the world not done with battle," I'm not entirely sure.  It could mean some Forsaken remain, or that there will be major wars with the Seanchan.

[Luckers]

Why wouldn't that be necessary? It tells us that Rand is going to die and still be alive in some manner. That adds a lot of mystique. I would say that is fairly significant.

 

Indeed, and the bit about the three girls that is linked to it? The great battle done, but three chicks are into swords, spears and prophecies.

 

I suppose one can't be 100% certain but the odds seem to lean towards TG IMO. Lets bookmark this thread and then come back to it after AMOL.

 

Haha. What makes you think you'll find your answer in AMOL? I rather doubt Nicola will have another foretelling that clarifies the first.

 

Incidently, has it occured to you that 'the Last Battle' will not be a single battle and thus cannot be termed 'the great battle'. The numbers involved preclude the possibility. Oh, I know they name it 'the Last Battle' but thats nomenclature, not prophecy, and we won't be seeing a single great battle to decide that situation. Perhaps thats an issue in the translation. Tarmon Gai'don baby, yeah!

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

Why wouldn't that be necessary? It tells us that Rand is going to die and still be alive in some manner. That adds a lot of mystique. I would say that is fairly significant.

 

Indeed, and the bit about the three girls that is linked to it? The great battle done, but three chicks are into swords, spears and prophecies.

 

 

 

 

Wouldn't the 3 chicks be necessary for the reader to identify the 'one who is dead yet lives' as Rand? Otherwise we may even consider him to be the DO!

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Indeed, and the bit about the three girls that is linked to it? The great battle done, but three chicks are into swords, spears and prophecies.

When do we begin to hear the whole "to live you must die" line. Isn't it when Rand pops through the doorframe in Tear?

 

I think the whole prophecy is a little redundant to be honest. It's obvious (to us) who the women are. It's obvious who the man is (if I'm right and the whole living and dying thing have been read before). Therefore, what's left? ... The boat. That, we don't know about.

 

Food for thought - It's clearly an Arthurian link methinks.

 

But where's he going? - Arthur went to Avalon never to been seen again.

 

A common link (on Darkfriends.net in the Legends article): Tar Valon=Avalon.

 

Interesting, maybe.

Incidently, has it occured to you that 'the Last Battle' will not be a single battle and thus cannot be termed 'the great battle'. The numbers involved preclude the possibility. Oh, I know they name it 'the Last Battle' but thats nomenclature, not prophecy, and we won't be seeing a single great battle to decide that situation. Perhaps thats an issue in the translation. Tarmon Gai'don baby, yeah!

I'm with Luckers on this one ... Curse it.  :P

 

We don't know where The Last Battle will be. It would make sense that something happens at the Bore. But then there's also Lan riding off for his date with destiny at Tarwin's Gap. My point is that there'll be loads of battles. Where will the decisive one be? No idea. Keep an eye on Mat though.

[Guest Dreadlord]

All this about "the" Last Battle is being read into a bit too much really I think. I mean, if you have two sides each with 100 men and they fight, it is a battle, but it is made up of many smaller battles as anyone can imagine. Tarmon Gaidon, THE Last Battle, just happens to have more men and at different locations, and it has more weight than any other fight, since no Dark Ones or devil figures will break free if the other battles are lost. Each section of the battle is as significant as each other; if Rand wins but his armies lose and everything else is wiped out, its still a lost battle

[Hybrid]

Indeed, it depends on how you define battle.  A battle is most commonly referred to as a single military engagement.  But in a long campaign, it can be difficult to define when one battle begins and one ends.  I don't believe that the Last Battle will simply be a single engagement, but rather a series of engagements over the entire continent.  And yet, it is referred to as "The Last Battle."  Yet you're saying "the Great Battle" can't refer to it because of that belief.

[Valinthros]

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

 

-Lord of Chaos, Dreams and Nightmares

 

Ok.  Let's start from the top.  This is one whole fortelling, right?  What do I mean by one whole fortelling?  Nicola says all this all at once.  That being fact, let's look at the sentence structure.

 

Who.  We're all quite certain the first sentence is stating the who.  As to who, it can be surmised for obvious reasons that the persons listed as who are Elayne, Ahvienda, and Min.  Pretty simple and straightforward.

 

The additional statement denotes the where.  Ok, it also adds in the additional he who is dead yet lives.  Not saying for certain, but my belief is that it's Rand.  Oh and all of them are on a boat somewhere.

 

Next we have, big suprise, WHEN!  It's after The Great Battle is done.  Just adding in there, the world not yet done with battle isnt really needed.  It does add to the whole foretelling with it's cryptic mysticism.   :P On this topic, I dont think there's a need to get into it because when you read my hypothesis, you'll understand why I didnt go in depth here.  ;)

 

After that we have what's going on.  The land divided by the return.  Ok, so half the land belongs to The Return.  Another part stating the when is about the Ashaman balancing the Aes Sedai.  Ok, no argument there.  Also states another what's going on, the future teetering on the edge of a blade.  Ok, again, no argument there.

 

I think we can all agree that these tie together.  That means that when The Great Battle is done, 4 people will be on a boat, the world will still do battle, the Ashaman will balance the Aes Sedai, and the future will teeter on the edge of a blade.  So the question brought up is, what battle is it?

 

Ok, so let's entertain that it's Dumai's Wells.  So, that's done.  Where is the scene with 4 people on a boat?  If it's Rand, when did he die yet live?  Sure, it could be that battle, and way way in the future the rest of the events unfold, and finally books and books later they're all 4 on a boat.  Makes sense...  Not likely.  Why?  Think about it.  Sure, Dumai's Well's was an important battle.  But why include that in a fortelling?  And for how many books, have no 4 in a boat that match the description?  It makes little sense to have one battle that, even though very important, entered into a foretelling and span the length of the books.  There's no foreshadowing because the battle has already happened.  What would that tell us?  Well, it'd say, the battle at Dumai's Well's is done, and way way ahead of that 4 people would be on a boat and some other stuff.  Which has little relevance to Dumai's Well's itself.  Why would those 4 on a boat be significant to Dumai's Wells?  It isnt.  Nowhere has there been an indication that even he who is dead yet lives has anything to do with Dumai's Well's either.

 

Tarmon Gai'din.  Fits.  Why?  Well, it's the pivotal battle we've all been waiting for.  We want to know if Rand lives or dies.  Why not build that up with that foretelling?  Makes much more sense than Dumai's wells.  The who, the where, the when, and what's going on.  They ALL fit.  And they all give us, the reader a sense of the story propelling along.  It's like saying, "Oh yeah, in case you forgot!  The Last Battle is coming!!!  And here's a little heads up, something to mix up ideas in your head about it."  That makes much more sense than any other battle I've read in WoT.

 

And that wraps it up.  The Great Battle = The Last Battle.  ;)

 

Additional point:  When exactly does The Return divide the land?  I could be mistaken, however afaik by the time Dumai's Well's comes around they still haven't swallowed half of Randland.

[Luckers]

The foretelling does all speak to a single incident, but several. The stacato nature of the sentence structure shows that.

[Mysterious]

The Return = Seanchan  ???

[Luckers]

Was that a question? The Seanchan invasion of the Westlands is called the Return--as they believing they are returning to their homeland.

 

Well, it's a little more complicated than that--technically the invasion force and the armies are called the Hailene, or the Forerunners. The Corenne (Return) does have armed forces with it, but mostly refers to the Seanchan settlers.

[Valinthros]

The foretelling does all speak to a single incident, but several. The stacato nature of the sentence structure shows that.

 

If that's fact, might as well say it was the battle between Asmo and Rand in Rhuidean.  Or maybe the battle at Falme.  Each is just as important a win as Dumai's Well's.  ;)

[Hybrid]

The foretelling does all speak to a single incident, but several. The stacato nature of the sentence structure shows that.

 

If that's fact, might as well say it was the battle between Asmo and Rand in Rhuidean.  Or maybe the battle at Falme.  Each is just as important a win as Dumai's Well's.  ;)

 

Well, the only problem is that it is a Foretelling, so it predicts the future.  You have a point though.  In that case, it could point to any "great battle" that has happened since LOC, Chapter 14.

[Valinthros]

Well, the only problem is that it is a Foretelling, so it predicts the future.  You have a point though.  In that case, it could point to any "great battle" that has happened since LOC, Chapter 14.

 

Agreed.

[Mysterious]

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

 

-Lord of Chaos, Dreams and Nightmares

 

 

Okay let's go through the prophecy:

 

Lion Sword = Elayne

Dedicated Spear = Avi

She who sees beyond = Min

He who is dead yet lives = Rand

 

The boat:  Physical = Like Arthurian Legend to Avalon i.e. Tar Valon  :-\ Or maybe this is just a metaphor as that all four are in this together? No conclusive proof.

 

The Great battle = Most assume it is Tarmon Gai'don. No conclusive proof.

 

The world not done by battle = Armies of the Shadow still on the field or maybe another War of Hundred Years. 4th Age quotes show that new nations or centres of power will rise up, where unknown. No conclusive proof.

 

The world divided by the return = The return of Rand would most likely divide the world as the oath that binds Dragonsworn holds till Tarmon Gai'don is done. It could also be an allusion to the arrival and the conquest of the Seanchan. They have conquered nearly the entire west coast and portions of the south. It could be implied that they control half of the continent's economic base. No conclusive proof.

 

The Guardians balance the Servants = Asha'man equals the Aes Sedai in strength or numbers? We have seen the recruitment program of the BT and estimate numbers at 1000 but the Aes Sedai numbers is near double of this. No conclusive proof.

 

The future teeters on the edge of a blade = Scale balancing? Could just allude to the fact if the right decision is not made at the right time everything goes to hell, even if the Light wins Tarmon Gai'don. No conclusive proof.

 

Just throwing my 2 cents worth

 

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

Okay let's go through the prophecy:

 

The boat:  Physical = Like Arthurian Legend to Avalon i.e. Tar Valon  :-\ Or maybe this is just a metaphor as that all four are in this together? No conclusive proof.

No, conclusive proof ... but:

We all know that the books are full of mythological tie ins. The Arthurian legend has been used in connection with Rand in the past. - The drawing of Excalibur from the stone sounds an awful lot like the drawing of Callandor from The Stone. Personally, I think the Avalon=Tar Valon link is a bit of stretch ... but when you include a man being borne away on a boat in the presence of 3 women... Well, that's almost a direct carbon copy of Arthurian legend. It isn't too much of a stretch to think that they'd be linked again.

The Great battle = Most assume it is Tarmon Gai'don. No conclusive proof.

 

The world not done by battle = Armies of the Shadow still on the field or maybe another War of Hundred Years. 4th Age quotes show that new nations or centres of power will rise up, where unknown. No conclusive proof.

I agree with the above two.

 

However, I'd say that it's clear to most people that TG is "The Great battle". The only real debate is if the prophecy refers to one huge fight, or numerous fights.

The world divided by the return = The return of Rand would most likely divide the world as the oath that binds Dragonsworn holds till Tarmon Gai'don is done. It could also be an allusion to the arrival and the conquest of the Seanchan. They have conquered nearly the entire west coast and portions of the south. It could be implied that they control half of the continent's economic base. No conclusive proof.

I'd think it very odd if RJ had included the Seanchan Return, specifically referenced as the Return, and then came up with a prophecy referencing another return. Besides, the prophecy says "divided" ... Randland is certainly divided and will be (most likely) up to and beyond TG. If it does refer to the Seanchan, then they've met the requirement of "dividing" the land.

 

I'm certain that the return = the Seanchan Return.

The Guardians balance the Servants = Asha'man equals the Aes Sedai in strength or numbers? We have seen the recruitment program of the BT and estimate numbers at 1000 but the Aes Sedai numbers is near double of this. No conclusive proof.

I'm certain that it refers to the AS and the Asha'amen.

 

I'd be suprised if it was talking in terms of strength, it just doesn't seem logical to me.

 

Besides, I think we'll see channelers dying en masse during TG (beit one enormous battle or a multitude of battles). I'd say that the numbers we see now are in no way an indication of the figures we'll have after TG. So who knows, they could be roughly equal in number.

The future teeters on the edge of a blade = Scale balancing? Could just allude to the fact if the right decision is not made at the right time everything goes to hell, even if the Light wins Tarmon Gai'don. No conclusive proof.

Well, I'd say it appears to be reliant on the outcome of a battle (not that it has to be the largest) or a fight of some sort. It makes sense, if you're talking about a choice, or decision, perhaps scales would be a reasonable image, but a sword suggests a battle to me.

 

That's my effort, anyway.

[Luckers]

If that's fact, might as well say it was the battle between Asmo and Rand in Rhuidean.  Or maybe the battle at Falme.  Each is just as important a win as Dumai's Well's.

 

It is indeed a fact, and both those realities are precluded by the time of the Foretelling, which takes place after them. Dumai's Well, additionally, had much greater direct social implications than either of those events, which fits with the flow of words. Dumai's Well's directly changed the political landscape on such a scale that it is completely unrivalled by any other event except the Cleansing of saidin, which i doubt can be termed a 'great battle'.

 

The world divided by the return = The return of Rand would most likely divide the world as the oath that binds Dragonsworn holds till Tarmon Gai'don is done. It could also be an allusion to the arrival and the conquest of the Seanchan. They have conquered nearly the entire west coast and portions of the south. It could be implied that they control half of the continent's economic base. No conclusive proof.

 

Given that we have seperate prophecies about the world be divided by the Seanchan Return--Rand's Aelfinn answer, the three wise ones single dream, etc... it pretty much has to be the Corenne to my mind.

 

However, I'd say that it's clear to most people that TG is "The Great battle". The only real debate is if the prophecy refers to one huge fight, or numerous fights.

 

You'd have done better phrasing it the way Mysterious phrased it--that most think it is TG is clear, and thats fine--i definately see the argument for that, even if i disagree. That it should be clear to those that don't think so, as you've implied, is both condescending and flawed. My objections are real, champ. Sorry if that clutters your idea of what this debate should be about.

 

 

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

However, I'd say that it's clear to most people that TG is "The Great battle". The only real debate is if the prophecy refers to one huge fight, or numerous fights.

You'd have done better phrasing it the way Mysterious phrased it--that most think it is TG is clear, and thats fine--i definately see the argument for that, even if i disagree. That it should be clear to those that don't think so, as you've implied, is both condescending and flawed. My objections are real, champ. Sorry if that clutters your idea of what this debate should be about.

Ummmm.... right. Firstly, why the passive agression?

 

Note the first line of the quote "However, I'd say ...." it's my opinion champ, merely that. It is not dressed up as anything else.

 

You're clearly taking things a little to seriously if you read condecension into my post. It's an opinion. That's all.

 

I don't have an idea as to what this debate is about. I merely put in my 10 cents. If you care to read the last line of the post "That's my effort, anyway."  Well, that hardly seems to be the closing line of someone who really wants to convince those in the thread or someone who wants to stamp on debate, does it?

 

You're one of the people who comes along all high and mighty on a regular basis, not me. Off your high horse please.

[Luckers]

Ummmm.... right. Firstly, why the passive agression?

 

It wasn't passive aggressive--i literally meant exactly what I said, the phrasing you used was flawed, and the idea you expressed, problematic.

 

Note the first line of the quote "However, I'd say ...." it's my opinion champ, merely that. It is not dressed up as anything else.

 

Your opinion was that it should be clear that that prophecy referred to TG... you don't see why that is poorly stated? Opinion or not, my friend, implying that your fellow posters are being stupid for not agreeing with you is objectionable.

 

By the way, I wasn't offended, I was just pointing out that your phrasing left a lot to be desired for--you could have sais exactly the same thing without implying that it should be clear, and that if you thought that the clarity of your position suggested a lack of opposition in this debate you were wrong.

 

But, in turn I've clearly offended you. Sorry for that. Not for what I said, I stand by that, but if the mode in which i said it seemed harsh it was unintended.

 

 

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Your opinion was that it should be clear that that prophecy referred to TG... you don't see why that is poorly stated? Opinion or not, my friend, implying that your fellow posters are being stupid for not agreeing with you is objectionable.

That's what an opinion is... I can say, in my opinion, it is clear that we need to invest in alternative sources of energy.

 

Now, that does not mean that I believe everyone who doesn't feel the same is stupid. I am merely stating that that is my belief and that, because I feel that is is "clear", I am 99% certain. I am perfectly willing to debate.

you could have sais exactly the same thing without implying that it should be clear, and that if you thought that the clarity of your position suggested a lack of opposition in this debate you were wrong.

But I believe it should be clear... That's not to say that I'm not interested in debating it. If I wasn't, I wouldn't have posted.

But, in turn I've clearly offended you. Sorry for that. Not for what I said, I stand by that, but if the mode in which i said it seemed harsh it was unintended.

Right. And if I upset you, then I apologize, for it was not my intent. I do however feel that you have got a little riled up over nothing.

[Luckers]

My problem was more with the fact that you phrased it 'it is clear to most people...'. I wouldn't have had a problem had you said 'it is clear to me...'

 

The implication was that it should have been clear, which clearly it wasn't. You made a statement regaurding the beliefs of others, one that, through your clear approval, which you gave by saying you thought that belief clear, carried a judgement in it on those that did not hold that belief. Your comment that 'the only real debate is...' also held the same connotations. Had you said 'I personally think the debate should be...' I wouldn't have had an issue.

 

I wasn't riled, those implications were flawed, and needed to be commented on. But one thing is clear, this is going nowhere, so lets drop it shall we?

 

 

 

 

[Auld Manriva]

Personally (clearly that would indicate "in my opinion") I think (IMHO too if thats not clearly stated in a clear enough fashion to be perfectly clear to anyone thinking clearly enough to gather it in) ...... The Seanchan are significantly weakened by recent setbacks against Rand, Mat,Ituralde and a warning from Perrin to steer clear of Ghealdon,that they would be barely able to mount any significant attack on the WT.

 

It's only a plot device to enable Egwene to gain control of the Tower at any rate? So why all the wringing hands and excitement?

 

The Seanchan are needed, in case anyone missed it, to assist at TG. Rand needs to have them corralled at least so he can concentrate, which he was in the process of doing at the end of KoD (a real meet with Tuon). This is a meet he'd better watch out for too. That little hellion thinks he is supposed to kneel to the Crystal Throne. They have control of Altara, Amadecia and only barely control some of Tarrabon since Ituralde rampaged. So having control of a fraction of Randland much less nearly half the known world is "all they got" (Seanchan itself is not even under control atm). They don't have much of a bargaining position... and again, personally I think what they have is what they have. No more support from across the ocean. The land divided is pretty much a done deal so far as I can see. Now it's just keeping the bloodthirsty, superstitious cretins bottled up and lending a hand to defeat Ol' Beezlebub.

[Hybrid]

Not sure I agree with this.

 

Personally (clearly that would indicate "in my opinion") I think (IMHO too if thats not clearly stated in a clear enough fashion to be perfectly clear to anyone thinking clearly enough to gather it in) ...... The Seanchan are significantly weakened by recent setbacks against Rand, Mat,Ituralde and a warning from Perrin to steer clear of Ghealdon,that they would be barely able to mount any significant attack on the WT.

Rand is really the only one to inflict significant losses against the Seanchan.  Mat and Ituralde were fighting guerilla campaigns.  Successful, but still not significant.  The Seanchan high command is still intact, and the one thing the Seanchan are very good at is recovering from their losses.  Hence, the "Ever Victorious Army."  They learn from their mistakes.  And they have military geniuses of their own.  Perrin has done nothing so far.  In fact, he helped the Seanchan secure hundreds of new damane.  And a warning is going to make the Seanchan steer clear of Ghealdan? ???

 

It's only a plot device to enable Egwene to gain control of the Tower at any rate? So why all the wringing hands and excitement?

By that reasoning, Egwene gaining control of the Tower is only a plot device to help Rand win TG, which is only a plot device to ensure the Light's victory, which is only a plot device to please the readers.  I'm not sure what wringing hands and excitement you're talking about here.

 

The Seanchan are needed, in case anyone missed it, to assist at TG. Rand needs to have them corralled at least so he can concentrate, which he was in the process of doing at the end of KoD (a real meet with Tuon). This is a meet he'd better watch out for too. That little hellion thinks he is supposed to kneel to the Crystal Throne. They have control of Altara, Amadecia and only barely control some of Tarrabon since Ituralde rampaged. So having control of a fraction of Randland much less nearly half the known world is "all they got" (Seanchan itself is not even under control atm). They don't have much of a bargaining position... and again, personally I think what they have is what they have. No more support from across the ocean. The land divided is pretty much a done deal so far as I can see.

I doubt anyone missed the obvious fact that the Light will need everything it has to win TG.  And it's obvious that the Seanchan are going to attack the White Tower from Egwene's dream.  Plus, there is plenty of evidence that such an attack is in the works.  Ituralde led a successful campaign against the Seanchan, but the Seanchan still have greater numbers and resources at their disposal.

 

Now it's just keeping the bloodthirsty, superstitious cretins bottled up and lending a hand to defeat Ol' Beezlebub.

I think you're talking about the Seanchan here, but the description seems to fit Trollocs better.  In any case, I fail to see how the Seanchan are bloodthirsty.  Recent books have indicated that they're not the Darkfriends everyone is talking about.  Cretins?  Hardly an appropriate term.

 

[Valinthros]

If that's fact, might as well say it was the battle between Asmo and Rand in Rhuidean.  Or maybe the battle at Falme.  Each is just as important a win as Dumai's Well's.

 

It is indeed a fact, and both those realities are precluded by the time of the Foretelling, which takes place after them. Dumai's Well, additionally, had much greater direct social implications than either of those events, which fits with the flow of words. Dumai's Well's directly changed the political landscape on such a scale that it is completely unrivalled by any other event except the Cleansing of saidin, which i doubt can be termed a 'great battle'.

 

I feel that this logic is flawed.  How can 'a great battle' as you term Dumai's Well's, with no reference in any prophecies or foretellings, be equal in magnitude to The Last Battle.  Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but nowhere do I remember anything revolving around Dumai's Well's in the way of prophecies or foretellings.  The Last Battle, however has many references.  The Last Battle has been built up from the beginning.  Additionally, the last battle is what will directly decide the fate of all of Randland.  In stating that The Great Battle as termed in the foretelling is Dumai's Wells suggests that you believe the last battle to be of lesser importance.  You can believe that, and that's ok.  I dont.  In suggesting that the events, as outlined are far removed from one another, would in my opinion be overlooking the fact that it's one foretelling rolled into a swift delivery by Nicola.  There is no reason to believe that the when is so far removed as the ammount of time that has lapsed since Dumai's wells.  None.  Even previous prophecies or foretellings when presented to us coincide events, when depicted, to work in such a way as to not leave that much time inbetween.  It makes the reference to it useless.  For what reason would you have a prophecy about Dumai's wells, or with a reference to it, and the rest unrelated?  Above and beyond all that.  Where has Dumai's well's ever been referenced to in similar terms?  The Great Battle.  The Last Battle.  Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Ok.  Just to clarify something, you took my naming of specific battle's too literally.  I listed a couple off the top of my head.  I agree that Dumai's Well's had a very significant impact.  Many battles did.  As to cultural impact, one I listed was Rand's battle with Asmo.  I think you can guess what I would say about that one and the Aiel.  Now, let's step back to the point of my original statement.  Immagine the great battle being one that Matt was involved in, or the one with Sammael.  If Sammael had killed him, all would be lost.  If just one of those had failed, all would have failed.  The true reason that Tarmon Gai'don stands apart is because it's been built up in the books constantly with additional prophecy and foretelling.  After all the battle's are done, and you said to a randlander; "Do you remember The Great Battle?"  What do you think the response is going to be?  Dumai's Well's?  *grin*

 

I'm not saying you're Daft Luckers.  I respect your opinion and knowledge.  I do feel that you are holding onto Dumai's Well's unreasonably, despite your extensive knowledge on WoT.  If you can tie in why those 4 people are on a boat so far ahead of Dumai's Well's to support that theory I'll be the first to change my mind.  You havent provided this yet, and I doubt anything solid exists.  It could, and to tell you the truth if it does I'll be even more pleased than you to see it.  ;)

[Auld Manriva]

Not sure I agree with this.

 

Personally (clearly that would indicate "in my opinion") I think (IMHO too if thats not clearly stated in a clear enough fashion to be perfectly clear to anyone thinking clearly enough to gather it in) ...... The Seanchan are significantly weakened by recent setbacks against Rand, Mat,Ituralde and a warning from Perrin to steer clear of Ghealdon,that they would be barely able to mount any significant attack on the WT.

Rand is really the only one to inflict significant losses against the Seanchan.  Mat and Ituralde were fighting guerilla campaigns.  Successful, but still not significant.  The Seanchan high command is still intact, and the one thing the Seanchan are very good at is recovering from their losses.  Hence, the "Ever Victorious Army."  They learn from their mistakes.  And they have military geniuses of their own.  Perrin has done nothing so far.  In fact, he helped the Seanchan secure hundreds of new damane.  And a warning is going to make the Seanchan steer clear of Ghealdan? ???

 

Guerilla campaigns that wiped out tens of thousands unless I my calculator broke... They don't have unlimited numbers any longer and their "military geniuses have been such geniuses so far. They've done SQUAT if not in a surprise attack or Blitskrieg situation.... Perrin gave them Aiel Wise Ones as damane. They've had trouble with Seafolk channelers, do you think Aiel will be any easier? Word of Perrin will spread, his warning may be treated as a bluff or minimalized but.... another mistake they cannot afford.

 

The Seanchan are needed, in case anyone missed it, to assist at TG. Rand needs to have them corralled at least so he can concentrate, which he was in the process of doing at the end of KoD (a real meet with Tuon). This is a meet he'd better watch out for too. That little hellion thinks he is supposed to kneel to the Crystal Throne. They have control of Altara, Amadecia and only barely control some of Tarrabon since Ituralde rampaged. So having control of a fraction of Randland much less nearly half the known world is "all they got" (Seanchan itself is not even under control atm). They don't have much of a bargaining position... and again, personally I think what they have is what they have. No more support from across the ocean. The land divided is pretty much a done deal so far as I can see.

I doubt anyone missed the obvious fact that the Light will need everything it has to win TG.  And it's obvious that the Seanchan are going to attack the White Tower from Egwene's dream.  Plus, there is plenty of evidence that such an attack is in the works.  Ituralde led a successful campaign against the Seanchan, but the Seanchan still have greater numbers and resources at their disposal.

 

It's not obvious. Likely for sure but not obvious. Foretellings even dream interpretations are said time and again as what could or is likely, not certain. The evidence you refer to could be interpreted just as well as another attack against Illian. Which IS indicated from reports to Rand.

 

Now it's just keeping the bloodthirsty, superstitious cretins bottled up and lending a hand to defeat Ol' Beezlebub.

I think you're talking about the Seanchan here, but the description seems to fit Trollocs better.  In any case, I fail to see how the Seanchan are bloodthirsty.  Recent books have indicated that they're not the Darkfriends everyone is talking about.  Cretins?  Hardly an appropriate term.

 

 

You don't think impaling folks (or their heads) on spikes is bloodthirsty? And I never said they were Darkfriends, they "clearly" are not. Just bloodthirsty, "do as we say or your noggin' is forfeit", superstitious cretins. And THAT is as appropriate a derisive term as any other. It's meant as an insult, a jibe, an affront, invective... a low blow, for all love.. not a specific description of them...  ::)

 

and how is anything inappropriate when discussing "fictional characters" jeez. Thats what Im talking about when I mentioned excitement and hand wringing... some of these "discussions" get way to serious...

[Hybrid]

Guerilla campaigns that wiped out tens of thousands unless I my calculator broke... They don't have unlimited numbers any longer and their "military geniuses have been such geniuses so far. They've done SQUAT if not in a surprise attack or Blitskrieg situation.... Perrin gave them Aiel Wise Ones as damane. They've had trouble with Seafolk channelers, do you think Aiel will be any easier? Word of Perrin will spread, his warning may be treated as a bluff or minimalized but.... another mistake they cannot afford.

Your calculator did not break.  However, the Seanchan are far from beaten.  They've still got powerful forces, and they're already planning their next offensives.  As for their military prowess, look at Karede and Galgan.  Yulan and Khirgan.  The Seanchan have their share of great generals.  Suroth is responsible for any bungling that has happened so far.  In addition, they have had many battles offscreen, once they had taken a hold in the countries.  You don't seriously think the Taraboners, Altarans, and Amadicians just rolled over, do you?  Also, surprise attacks and blitzkrieg are good strategies.  What, you think they should have warned the nations about their invasion first?  Their track record proves that they have great generals.  They have never lost a war.  Ever.

 

As for Perrin, the fact remains that he is responsible for giving the Seanchan hundreds of damane.  Sure, breaking them won't be easy.  But the Seanchan have hundreds of years of experience.  The a'dam is a powerful tool, and the Aiel stoicism with regard to physical pain will not help.

 

It's not obvious. Likely for sure but not obvious. Foretellings even dream interpretations are said time and again as what could or is likely, not certain. The evidence you refer to could be interpreted just as well as another attack against Illian. Which IS indicated from reports to Rand.

How else do you interpret Egwene's dream?  As for Rand's reports, they are interpretations of the facts.  Also, the Seanchan have enough forces to battle on multiple fronts.

 

You don't think impaling folks (or their heads) on spikes is bloodthirsty? And I never said they were Darkfriends, they "clearly" are not. Just bloodthirsty, "do as we say or your noggin' is forfeit", superstitious cretins. And THAT is as appropriate a derisive term as any other. It's meant as an insult, a jibe, an affront, invective... a low blow, for all love.. not a specific description of them...  ::)

The penalty for treason is generally death.  Look at the Asha'man, Tear, Cairhien.  Look at the real world.  And the execution is generally carried out as a public demonstration against betraying one's nation.  Hardly bloodthirsty.

 

As for your description of the Seanchan, it is your own opinion.  My point is that I think you're being a little harsh there.  The Seanchan are good people whose society has been shaped by their history, as all societies are.  They are no more bloodthirsty than any other nation.