Dreaming and the power

[oosquaiaddict]

In my mind dreaming and all its related stuff is one of the most fascinating parts of WOT. e.g. I believe that the Ter'angreals for being raised to accepted takes the person to step through into some form of Tel'aran'rhiod. Same with portal stones, same with Rands skimming. Basically I believe that a lot of the "trippy" stuff in WOT is related to TAR.

 

One thing I have wondered about though is if dreaming is something that can be learned by someone without any special talent in the area?

 

It seems to me as if all the forsaken can use Tel'aran'rhiod, and its unlikely that all 13 of them were born with the talent to dream. I see that we mostly see them entering Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, but not always(e.g. the forsaken meeting in the beginning of KOD).

 

Also Aviendha doesn't seem to have a obvious talent for dreaming, but she tells Rand how she can enter TAR with the help of the other Wise Ones that dream.

 

The ability to learn probably also has some relation to the strength in the power. All the forsaken are high up that chain, as is Aviendha, and if it didn't have anything to do with the power, than why would there be only four(now 3) dream walking wise ones?

 

Granted this isn't a very strong case, but the more I reflect on it, the more Im thinking that dreaming can be learned at least by those strong in the power.

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

This is how I see it. Anyone can enter T'A'R if they know the trick. Some people depend on ter'angreal. Some people are born with the Talent called Dreamwalking, which lets them enter the Dreams of others and control T'A'R extremely well.

 

Dreaming is a different Talent altogether though. Dreamers (not Dreamwalkers) have dreams that are like visions of prophecy, where there are things to be understood about the Dream, the Dream itself means something relating to the real world. Perrin and Egwene both are Dreamwalkers, and both are also Dreamers. (At least I think Perrin is a Dreamer, but I know he is definitely a Dreamwalker.)

 

So, Dreamwalking can be learned I think, but Dreaming cannot, you must have the Talent.

[Luckers]

Well, to be fair we don't know that the Forsaken were in fact dreaming in the KoD meeting--oh, Cyndane, Aran'gar, Moghedian and Moridin are definates, but Demandred for instance we know needs to enter the dream in the flesh--and for that matter we also know that Aran'gar is very very weak in the dream.

 

We also know that all channelers were trained in the dream irrespective of whether they had the ability or not--thats more than inferred by the comment about training ter'angreal.

 

The ability to learn probably also has some relation to the strength in the power. All the forsaken are high up that chain, as is Aviendha, and if it didn't have anything to do with the power, than why would there be only four(now 3) dream walking wise ones?

 

Firstly, a person cannot learn to dreamwalk. A person without the inherent ability can be pulled into the dream by a dreamwalker, or enter with the assistance of a ter'angreal, or, if they can channel, can enter in the flesh--and there is some form of wierdness going on with Slayer that suggests other options are there as well. But learning in the manner you suggest is not possible.

 

Furthermore, dreaming itself has nothing to do with the Power--and we know this because two of the dreamwalking Wise Ones couldn't channel at all.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Ah yes I remember now. The only way for a non-dreamwalker to enter T'A'R is to be pulled into it by someone else or with an angreal. BUT there is a chance that people enter T'A'R very briefly while having a normal dream. Otherwise, you need to make a gateway into T'A'R like Rand does when fighting Rahvin

[oosquaiaddict]

I think you could also add Graendal and Asmodean to the definites. Asmodean spends a lot of time doing stuff in TAR in The Shadow Returns. Once he appears as a haze to Rand. I cant remember where but Graendal changes her clothes a bunch of times, in one of the meetings in TAR. I think both of these are things done if your there in a dream rather than the flesh.

 

Be'lal also I think probably can enter through the dream as well. My reasoning for Be'lal is indirect but I think plausible. He keeps visiting Callandor in TAR in The Dragon Reborn. He is in Tear as a High Lord at the time, so why would he enter TAR in the flesh and than go to the Hall of the Stone. Seems much more likely while he is sleeping he decides to visit the place.

 

I dont see why learning would be impossible. 'Training' Ter'angreal implies that its training doesnt it? Once done with training they should achieve some sort of competence. Granted not everyone can dream their way TAR, like Demandred as Luckers points out. But many of the forsaken can get there, and they dont have access to much ter'angreal. It seems quite possible that the ability to train people in dreamwalking was lost during the breaking.

[Luckers]

No, you can change your clothes if you are there in the flesh--you can change your flesh too. You may have a point about Asmodean though--or maybe not. To enter a persons dreams is to give them total power over you. And we know thats not the case as Lanfear made Min, Elayne and Aviendha disapear. Far more likely is that Lanfear pulled him into tel'aran'rhiod, in which case a person in the flesh could find them.

 

And who knows--given there are ter'angreal that allow you to enter a persons dreams (Temaille does this) maybe there is a weave.

 

As for Be'lal--the High Lords only enter the Heart four times a year. If he'd gone other than then it would be noticed--he'd have needed to compel every person in the Stone.

 

I dont see why learning would be impossible. 'Training' Ter'angreal implies that its training doesnt it? Once done with training they should achieve some sort of competence. Granted not everyone can dream their way TAR, like Demandred as Luckers points out. But many of the forsaken can get there, and they dont have access to much ter'angreal. It seems quite possible that the ability to train people in dreamwalking was lost during the breaking.

 

I don't think so. Firstly every Aes Sedai was trained in tel'aran'rhiod, but the fact that they needed ter'angreal to give that training shows that the ability can't simply be taught. Secondly, if it could be we wouldn't see Demandred entering the dream in the flesh. No, with this i think you either have the ability or you don't.