Is Verin, as Black Ajah, after the Horn of Valere?

[wvlr]

The simple act of saying "Moraine sent me" is a lie plain and simple.  Twisting truth is Moraine saying "You may call me Mistress Whatever", I'll buy that one but "Moraine sent me" is what it is, a lie. 

 

I'm sorry but your way is not the only way to look at things.

 

My wife might say something like:

"Why do you make me pick up your dirty clothes all the time!"    But the fact is I do not make her do that.    The fact is I might be quite happy for those clothes to be left on the floor for weeks or even months at a time.

 

It would be my ACTIONS / or actually my "LACK of ACTIONS" that actually make her do it.   I do not physically have to stand over her with a club or actually verbally tell her to do it.    But by my not doing it, it creates a situation where I am "none the less" forcing her to do it.

 

The same type of thing works for Verin.     Moraine's lack of going with Rand - created a need for Verin to do it, so - by default - "Moraine sent me".    Or if you prefer the long version "Moraine's - lack of action - sent me".    It is really quite simple and is an acceptable "out".     Remember and AS's rationalization does not have to meet YOUR requirements, only hers.    As long as she sees it like this she can use those words.

 

 

A good example of this is Boewin's betrayal of the Rebals.    She rationalized - convinced herself - so that she could go to Elida and not break her vows, but once Egewene ripped up her excuse in KoD, Boewin's excuse broke down and she effectively admitted that Egwene was HER Amyridian.    It is all in your (the AS) frame of mind.

 

Edited to add.

 

It is a lot like the modern Lie Detectors.  To the average Joe - they think that a Lie Detector is just straight forward yes/no type thing.    But it is not.    There are so many ways to beat a Lie Detector that they are not even admitted in most courts.

 

You can beet them by pinching yourself momentarily before each answer.    Or have a tack in your shoe and just moments before you answer a question push your toe down on the tack.  Or when asked "Did you murder Sam"  instead you delibrately think a few extra words "Did you murder Sam on Saturday" so you say "No" because you did it on Monday.    Or convince yourself that you are not yourself, Bill but instead you are Randy.    So you are thinking "No, Randy did not kill Sam".  The list goes on forever. 

[xander]

I'm sorry but your way is not the only way to look at things.

 

I wasn't implying that my way was the only way.  If my post reads that way I apologize.

 

Verin's saying "Moraine sent me" in my opinion is too strong and direct a statement not to be a lie.  I see no subtle twisting of the truth here.  The way I read this is that she did not tell the truth.  We can split hairs all day long about what is or isn't an untruth.  Your example about picking up your clothes is an excellent example of that.  But if an Aes Sedai is truly bound by the Three Oaths not to tell an untruth then there has to be a line somewhere that they cannot cross.  To my way of thinking, Verin crossed it. 

 

Thinking about it; there has to be a reason that she said it and then Moraine denied it.  If not there would be no reason for Moraine to be asked the question.  It could have simply been taken as a fact that she was, in fact, sent by Moraine.

 

I believe this was a hint of something to come later.  I hope that I'm right in that it adds a nice twist to the story. 

[wvlr]

I'm sorry but your way is not the only way to look at things.

 

I wasn't implying that my way was the only way.  If my post reads that way I apologize.

 

Verin's saying "Moraine sent me" in my opinion is too strong and direct a statement not to be a lie.  I see no subtle twisting of the truth here.  The way I read this is that she did not tell the truth.  We can split hairs all day long about what is or isn't an untruth.  Your post aboug picking up your clothes is a perfect example of that.  But is an Aes Sedai is truly bound by the Three Oaths not to tell an untruth then there has to be a line somewhere that they cannot cross.  To my way of thinking, Verin crossed it. 

 

Thinking about it; there has to be a reason that she said it and then Moraine denied it.  If not there would be no reason for Moraine to be asked the question.  It could have simply been taken as a fact that she was, in fact, sent by Moraine.

 

I believe this was a hint of something to come later.  I hope that I'm right in that it adds a nice twist to the story. 

 

No, I understand you completely.    And that

I'm sorry but your way is not the only way to look at things.

was not intended to be personal or a put down.

 

In a Black/White world you would be absolutely correct.

 

Look again at the Bowin example - that shows clearly that A.S. ABSOLUTELY CAN LIE.    Egewene had to prove to Bowein that her rationalization did not hold water.  Once Egwene did that, Bowine could no longer say it.    This clearly shows that it is all dependent on what is in the mind of the AS making the statement.

 

[Dreggs Morlock]

Did Verin say (1), "Morraine sent me..." or did she say(2),"Morraine sent me."

 

If she said (1) then she did not lie... Morraine might have sent her to get a cup of tea 2 months ago.

 

If she said (2), then she lied. 

 

The problem is, we are not privy to Verin's PoV... there is no way to know.  In her mind, she might have been not answering the question, but instead relating a conversation she had with Morraine in the past... but then, she might have been outright lying.  We do not have the information at this time to know one way or another.

[trakand_01]

I dont think Verin can lie. In her POV in... i think book 7 when she is 'compelling' one of the AS... can't remember which one but it is in the prologue, she is told explicitly by one of the Wise Ones 'you must not tell Rand Al'Thor' about a specific thing and her POV shows her thought process 'she certainly would not tell him, but a note perhaps?'

 

I think it will transpire that Moiraine didnt finish her sentence properly. 'I did not send Verin' could very likely have been better finished by 'I did not send Verin, I merely suggested that one of us keep an eye on you, and as Suian and I were busy...'.