Cyndane/Lanfear

[Luckers]

On the other hand RJ has specifically used Forsaken comparing their strengths as an example of how they lie to themselves, even in pov.

[rd2000]

Whether or not Cyndane led because she was more powerful or because Moridin "appointed" her leader was not really that important. The point was that Cyndane is very powerful. Powerful enough to be considered a force to be reckoned with by other female forsaken upon first sight. Siuan was not weak in the power before stilling, indeed the story leads us to believe she was pretty strong before she was stilled, on a level with Moiraine. After being stilled and healed by a woman she was as weak as you could be and still be considered Aes Sedai.

 

If Lanfear went through a similar weakening from stilling/healing, she wouldn't be strong enough after to be considered as she is by other forsaken. Therefore Lanfear was not stilled/healed but was resurrected like Moridin/Dashiva/Halima. Since Lanfear was known to be most beautifly/powerful and Cyndane is not, the beauty and power was an addition to Lanfear's body and she lost those when she became Cyndane. My previous referance to "threads" applies here. Lanfear's "thread" in the pattern was enhanced so she was most beautiful and most powerful. Lanfear's "thread" was cut from the pattern and her soul was put into an existing body/thread (Cyndane's) The new thread does not have the enhancements the old thread had.

[Mardragon]

I think what happened to her strength was Moiraine wished to be as strong as Lanfear in the OP. So instead of making Mo stronger they made Lanfear weaker' date=' then Mo wanted Lanfear's knowledge in the OP, so they copy pasted Lanfear's memory into Mo's. Then they killed Lanfear because she is evil.[/quote']

 

I like that theory, it's just the kind of tricksy thing the Eelfinn would do. I'm not convinced they brought Lanfear's power down to Moiraine's level though, at least not in the way you suggest. Why? I think all the female forsaken are a good deal stronger than the strongest Aes Sedai (with the exception of Nynaeve who is around Moghedien's strength I believe). This includes Cyndane who (despite being weaker than Lanfear) is still powerful by female forsaken standards. There are other female channelers in the modern age who could match, even beat them however, but not amongst the Aes Sedai.

 

I think that Moiraine could have asked the Eelfinn to make her as strong(er) as Lanfear, and they removed some of the power capacity from Lanfear and gave it to Moiraine.

To explain what I mean, think of two jugs of water, a and b where b contains a lot more water than a. To make them equal, rather than just pouring out the excess of b to make it equal to a one could simply pour b into a to make them equal.

 

Thus in effect, they could become of equal strength and Lanfear would be weakened, but not to the extent that she would if she were brought all the way down to Moiraine's (original) level.

[Luckers]

The fact remains that we have two phenomona that link only with stilling, occuring after the event in Cairhein. There was the severing on Moiraine's bond, which is caused only by death or stilling, and we know she wasn't killed. And we have a decrease in Cyndane strength, which to date we have only seen occur when a woman is healed back to the ability by another woman. To me the lesser decrease in strength is merely indicative of RJ wanting one of his bad guys to still be impressive. Additionally there is no way to actually judge the true drop in strength that has occured, since we have specifically been told not to trust the Forsakens comparisons of their own strength in the power.

[rd2000]

Moiraine could have passed the bond to Myrelle as she was going after Lanfear. The story did specifically say she drew in on the One Power right before she tackled Lanfear. Or, she could have severed it herself with it set to automatically pass to Myrelle.

 

If Lanfear was stilled, who healed her? None of the other female forsaken because we know they all only strongly suspect Cyndane is Lanfear. If one of them had healed her from Stilling, she would know it was Lanfear in Cyndane's body.

[Luckers]

Moiraine could have passed the bond to Myrelle as she was going after Lanfear. The story did specifically say she drew in on the One Power right before she tackled Lanfear. Or, she could have severed it herself with it set to automatically pass to Myrelle.

 

Your claiming that in between fighting visciously with one of the Forsaken... who already far outmatches her instrength, she took the strength away to sever her bond with Lan? Aside from silly, it's impossible. The death consumption effect only occurs when the bond is severed. When its released intentionally by the Aes Sedai it doesn't cause that effect. Indeed, RJ has said that such a practice is known amongst Aes Sedai who know they are going to die, for the specific purpose of sparing the man that, similarily the passing on of the bond doesn't cause it, which we know because the Aes Sedai would never have demanded it of Myrelle if it would. The incident with Moiraine caused the death consumption thing in Lan, ergo it was severed unintentionally, which only stilling, and death, does.

 

If Lanfear was stilled, who healed her? None of the other female forsaken because we know they all only strongly suspect Cyndane is Lanfear. If one of them had healed her from Stilling, she would know it was Lanfear in Cyndane's body.

 

Thats not actually evidence, its just a good question. Since there is evidence that the two were severed from the One Power, it must be answered.

 

We do not know that it is not the female forsaken, we know that it is not Graendal. One of the others may easily have done it, and just kept silent on it, indeed, especially if they were ordered to keep silent by Moridin or Shadar Haren. We've never even heard them speak on it, and never had a POV for any of them in which the thought was raised, one way or another. Possibly it was Moghedian, she was present in Salidar and could have learned the Weave, and because of her leash and the fact that we havn't had her POV its not only plausible, but probable that she wouldn't have said anything had it been her, the problem being that she has little skill at healing.

 

It may be Semirhage, she would obey a command to keep it to herself because she would have no real reason to betry it, and her POV with Cabriana shows she is capable of taking commands without letting her pride interfere, as long as they dont inconvenience her. Mesanna seems less likely, but she does have access to Aes Sedai... admittedly, Aes Sedai who are not aware of that fact... but still not impossible.

 

Other then the Forsaken, the option seems to be Aes Sedai, specifically one in the rebel camp... which is far from impossible given their ability to travel, and Aran'gar's presense to relay a command to go to SG... it wouldn't even require aran'gar to know what was happening. Indeed, that would make a whole lot of sense.

[Jedimuppet]

The fact remains that we have two phenomona that link only with stilling' date=' occuring after the event in Cairhein. There was the severing on Moiraine's bond, which is caused only by death or stilling, and we know she wasn't killed. And we have a decrease in Cyndane strength, which to date we have only seen occur when a woman is healed back to the ability by another woman. To me the lesser decrease in strength is merely indicative of RJ wanting one of his bad guys to still be impressive. Additionally there is no way to actually judge the true drop in strength that has occured, since we have specifically been told not to trust the Forsakens comparisons of their own strength in the power.[/quote']

 

AS can willingly end the bond...this is a known fact.

J

[Jedimuppet]

The fact remains that we have two phenomona that link only with stilling' date=' occuring after the event in Cairhein. There was the severing on Moiraine's bond, which is caused only by death or stilling, and we know she wasn't killed. And we have a decrease in Cyndane strength, which to date we have only seen occur when a woman is healed back to the ability by another woman. To me the lesser decrease in strength is merely indicative of RJ wanting one of his bad guys to still be impressive. Additionally there is no way to actually judge the true drop in strength that has occured, since we have specifically been told not to trust the Forsakens comparisons of their own strength in the power.[/quote']

 

AS can willingly end the bond...this is a known fact.

J

 

Also, there is no proof that lanfear was stilled. All you know is that she came back as someone different. Presumably reincarnated after death. Who here thinks that a stilled person being reincarnated is still stilled? She was *dead*..He brought her back to life, and if she's less powerful, it's because he wanted her that way as a reminder of what a snot she was for plotting with LTT.

J

[Luckers]

AS can willingly end the bond...this is a known fact.

 

If you'd bothered to read my post you would have known that i addressed this. An AS ends the bond specifically, and only, so that a Warder can avoid the concumption of death effect that occurs when his Aes Sedai dies. Its one of their greta traditions and several times the fact that it ia done ONLY for this reason--as evidenced by Elyas, and the thoughts of Nynaeve, Egwene, Suine and others. Lan experienced the death consumption therefore the bonds was not willingly ended. Please don't make me repeat myself again, it grows warriesome.

 

Also, there is no proof that lanfear was stilled. All you know is that she came back as someone different. Presumably reincarnated after death. Who here thinks that a stilled person being reincarnated is still stilled? She was *dead*..He brought her back to life, and if she's less powerful, it's because he wanted her that way as a reminder of what a snot she was for plotting with LTT.

 

The evidence is in that to date the only way we know to actively decrease a channelers strength is through stilling (note: what happened Asmodean is not the same. He knew his full strength whereas Cyndanes POV proves that she knows her strength is absolutely decreased, not just limited by a shield.)

 

Additionally all the other reincarnated people have maintained their strength, even accross gender proving that strength and ability is a function of the soul, not the body. Any assumption about the DO's intention is suppostition with absolutely no proof. If he wanted to reign her in, the Co'souvra did that. Limiting her strength is stupid, because it lestens the strength of his side.

[Jedimuppet]

AS can willingly end the bond...this is a known fact.

 

If you'd bothered to read my post you would have known that i addressed this. An AS ends the bond specifically' date=' and only, so that a Warder can avoid the concumption of death effect that occurs when his Aes Sedai dies. Its one of their greta traditions and several times the fact that it ia done ONLY for this reason--as evidenced by Elyas, and the thoughts of Nynaeve, Egwene, Suine and others. Lan experienced the death consumption therefore the bonds was not willingly ended. Please don't make me repeat myself again, it grows warriesome.

 

Also, there is no proof that lanfear was stilled. All you know is that she came back as someone different. Presumably reincarnated after death. Who here thinks that a stilled person being reincarnated is still stilled? She was *dead*..He brought her back to life, and if she's less powerful, it's because he wanted her that way as a reminder of what a snot she was for plotting with LTT.

 

The evidence is in that to date the only way we know to actively decrease a channelers strength is through stilling (note: what happened Asmodean is not the same. He knew his full strength whereas Cyndanes POV proves that she knows her strength is absolutely decreased, not just limited by a shield.)

 

Additionally all the other reincarnated people have maintained their strength, even accross gender proving that strength and ability is a function of the soul, not the body. Any assumption about the DO's intention is suppostition with absolutely no proof. If he wanted to reign her in, the Co'souvra did that. Limiting her strength is stupid, because it lestens the strength of his side.

 

Please don't assume I didn't read your post, because I did. It's also a great tradition that AS don't pass bonds around, considering it tantamount to rape. Obviously, she's mucking around with a lot of custom. For you to assert that AS only do certain things at certain times is not cogent here, because she demonstrated an ability and willingness to deviate from custom/law.

 

As far as Lanfear goes, I believe it was the DO, because stilling makes no sense. Gender has nothing to do with, as I'm sure that not even you think the DO is "male". Cyndane is still among the strongest female forsaken. She alone planned to supplant the DO, and that called for extra measures.

 

I'm sorry making you repeat yourself grew "warrisome". Please refrain from characterizing people's comments as stupid, or if you're going to throw things like that around, do some spellchecking.

J

[Luckers]

Please don't assume I didn't read your post, because I did. It's also a great tradition that AS don't pass bonds around, considering it tantamount to rape. Obviously, she's mucking around with a lot of custom. For you to assert that AS only do certain things at certain times is not cogent here, because she demonstrated an ability and willingness to deviate from custom/law.

 

Dude, i never said that. i said that the Aes Sedai cut the bond off most frequently to save the warder from the death consumption, therefore we can assume that the death consumption does not occur when the bond is intentionally cut. That was the reason i said you didn't read my post... twice now you have looked at something i never focused on... what else am i to conclude?

 

As far as Lanfear goes, I believe it was the DO, because stilling makes no sense. Gender has nothing to do with, as I'm sure that not even you think the DO is "male". Cyndane is still among the strongest female forsaken. She alone planned to supplant the DO, and that called for extra measures.

 

How does stilling not make sense? We have Syndane quote that she could only channel at her original strength BEFORE her time with the finns. We have the fact that the only known way to decrease someones strength is stilling and re-healing. We have Lans bond severing indicating Moiraine was potentially severed, especially given no other explanation. We have the fact that two channelers could not easily be held, especially given the proof that channeling works and is a viable defence against the finns as of rands actions. We have the fact that female channelers could easily be called upon to heal lanfear. We have the fact that limiting the strength of a servant boudn by co'souvra is stupid, and weakens yourself, not a potential adversary, as Lanfear has no way of acting against the co'souvra.

 

I'm sorry making you repeat yourself grew "warrisome". Please refrain from characterizing people's comments as stupid, or if you're going to throw things like that around, do some spellchecking.

 

I have dyslexia. Deal with my inability to spell because it aint gonna change. Additionally, language serves only to relate an idea, spelling is important only to the extent that understanding can occur. If you can understand what i wrote, then anything else is unimportant.

[rd2000]

His point was that you called my idea silly, while mispelling several words. Kinda like a pot calling a kettle black.

 

Ok, first off, just because we believe different than you, that does not make us silly. Why do people resort to that tactic over and over????????

Discredit the person with a different idea and maybe it discredits their theory??? A person who falls to using that obvious tactic (whether knowingly or not) is usually far underestimating the cognitive powers of those they are accusing.

 

 

Now on to Lan and his "death consumption" as you put it. Just as with AS being able to lie when they believe the lie, Lan felt that way because he BELIEVED Moiraine was dead.

 

I have a hard time believing that the DO can change one's level of strength in the power upon resurrection. I still firmly believe that Cyndane's level of power is now equal to Lanfear's minus the Finn's alteration.

[Jedimuppet]

His point was that you called my idea silly' date=' while mispelling several words. Kinda like a pot calling a kettle black.

 

Ok, first off, just because we believe different than you, that does not make us silly. Why do people resort to that tactic over and over????????

Discredit the person with a different idea and maybe it discredits their theory??? A person who falls to using that obvious tactic (whether knowingly or not) is usually far underestimating the cognitive powers of those they are accusing.

 

 

Now on to Lan and his "death consumption" as you put it. Just as with AS being able to lie when they believe the lie, Lan felt that way because he BELIEVED Moiraine was dead.

 

I have a hard time believing that the DO can change one's level of strength in the power upon resurrection. I still firmly believe that Cyndane's level of power is now equal to Lanfear's minus the Finn's alteration.[/quote']

 

I could accept that, but I don't believe her reduced power level would survive the reincarnation process. I believe she would be restored to her "natural" state, not what someone did to her in her last incarnation.

J

[rd2000]

Exactly what I was implying. The Finn's boosted Lanfear's power and beauty to an unnatural state. When she died, and was resurrected by the DO, she lost those boosts and reverted to the "original" Lanfear in power level.

[Jedimuppet]

Exactly what I was implying. The Finn's boosted Lanfear's power and beauty to an unnatural state. When she died' date=' and was resurrected by the DO, she lost those boosts and reverted to the "original" Lanfear in power level.[/quote']

 

You're not the only one to suggest that. Where's that idea come from? When did this supposedly happen?

J

[Mad Season]

Has anyone mentioned stilling may have changed Lanfear's appearance as it did Suian and Leane? While the Forsaken aren't ageless because they didn't swear the 3 Oaths they still stopped aging because they channel, stilling would have reset this. I'm not sure how close Cyndane looks to Lanfear. Whether it was mainly a change in the face or if her height changed also? Sorry if this has been mentioned didn't feel like rereading 5 pgs.

[Jedimuppet]

Has anyone mentioned stilling may have changed Lanfear's appearance as it did Suian and Leane? While the Forsaken aren't ageless because they didn't swear the 3 Oaths they still stopped aging because they channel' date=' stilling would have reset this. I'm not sure how close Cyndane looks to Lanfear. Whether it was mainly a change in the face or if her height changed also? Sorry if this has been mentioned didn't feel like rereading 5 pgs.[/quote']

 

Stilling wouldn't reset it. They merely look as young as they would have had they not sworn on the oath rod.

J

[Mad Season]

Err yea thats what I meant, didn't mean for it to sound like she would age or something. But I just read Cyndane's description and just stilling wouldn't account for her being shorter and the change of hair color so nevermind.

[Jedimuppet]

Err yea thats what I meant' date=' didn't mean for it to sound like she would age or something. But I just read Cyndane's description and just stilling wouldn't account for her being shorter and the change of hair color so nevermind.[/quote']

 

Right, but since she never swore on an oath rod, stilling would not affect her appearance at all. Only Aes Sedai would look different after stilling.

J

[Luckers]

rd, i dind't say that you were silly, i said the idea seemed mildly silly to me... and indeed, it did. It wasn't derogatory, its just a mode of speach i use. Additionally... and im really just curious here, but how does silliness equate with bad spelling?

 

As to Lan, that didn't result from his belief. Throughout the series it has been put forward again and again that the "death consumption" is a specific result of the bond being snapped, it is not simple mourning. If you ant exact evidence of that Suine knew and believed that her warder was dead, but because she was stilled the crying effect that is the Aes Sedai version of this effect never set in, it wasn't until she was healed that the effect set into her mind. Also RJ has said that Aes Sedai sever the bond intentionally only to SAVE a warder from this in their death. They still die, and the warder still believes they are dead, but the effect doesnt set in.

 

As to the Finns, i have never heard that theory, whats the evidence for it?

 

It seems implausible to me in any case. A) a request for more strength would be easily answered with an angreal. B) In an age of angreals, and where strength in the power isn't held to be significant, why would Lanfear have asked for more strength. C)The only way we've actually seen a persons strength lessened is in being severed and re-healed.

[Jedimuppet]

rd' date=' i dind't say that you were silly, i said the idea seemed mildly silly to me... and indeed, it did. It wasn't derogatory, its just a mode of speach i use. Additionally... and im really just curious here, but how does silliness equate with bad spelling?

 

As to Lan, that didn't result from his belief. Throughout the series it has been put forward again and again that the "death consumption" is a specific result of the bond being snapped, it is not simple mourning. If you ant exact evidence of that Suine knew and believed that her warder was dead, but because she was stilled the crying effect that is the Aes Sedai version of this effect never set in, it wasn't until she was healed that the effect set into her mind. Also RJ has said that Aes Sedai sever the bond intentionally only to SAVE a warder from this in their death. They still die, and the warder still believes they are dead, but the effect doesnt set in.

 

As to the Finns, i have never heard that theory, whats the evidence for it?

 

It seems implausible to me in any case. A) a request for more strength would be easily answered with an angreal. B) In an age of angreals, and where strength in the power isn't held to be significant, why would Lanfear have asked for more strength. C)The only way we've actually seen a persons strength lessened is in being severed and re-healed.[/quote']

 

The only reason spelling could equate to silliness, and other negative adjectives you tend to use when you don't clearly see where someone is coming from is that it could be considered a "mode of speech" to point out others shortcomings, as it seems you like to do.

 

The fact that they aren't actually shortcomings, and only represent opinions that diverge from your only serves to increase the irritation factor. It's one thing if someone doesn't understand or agree with a point, and says so. It's quite another for them to say it's tiresome, "warisome" (did you mean worrisome, and if so why are you worried?), silly, stupid, whatever you pick. That behavior is far more tiresome to me than someone not agreeing with me.

J

J

[Inara]

i must agree that the spelling and grammar on this forum in general is surprisingly atrocious. this is a literate community, how can we expect to be taken seriously if we cannot spell.

typos are, of course, an exception to this as often, they cannot be helped and the use of capitol letters are not a large part of modern internet ettiquette, so i too have jumped on the proverbial bandwagon here.

example: today i read "threw" in the place of "through"...

 

i sound like my english teacher on my high horse here. :roll:

 

incidentally; jedi, elyas' bond has not been severed, he is quoted to say things like, "she could find me right now" and is sometimes caught looking off into space. Moiraine does, however, offer to release Lan from his bond...so this is possible.

[Jedimuppet]

i must agree that the spelling and grammar on this forum in general is surprisingly atrocious. this is a literate community' date=' how can we expect to be taken seriously if we cannot spell.

typos are, of course, an exception to this as often, they cannot be helped and the use of capitol letters are not a large part of modern internet ettiquette, so i too have jumped on the proverbial bandwagon here.

example: today i read "threw" in the place of "through"...

 

i sound like my english teacher on my high horse here. :roll:

 

incidentally; jedi, elyas' bond has not been severed, he is quoted to say things like, "she could find me right now" and is sometimes caught looking off into space. Moiraine does, however, offer to release Lan from his bond...so this is possible.[/quote']

 

I didn't think Elyas' bond was severed; I agree with your above statement. The only reason I brought that topic into the discussions was an assertion that we could make assumptions about the severing of a bond because it could only occur in specific instances. Since that poster hadn't mentioned the voluntary possibility, I felt it needed to be brought up.

 

I don't actually think Moiraine voluntarily cut the bond, but I did believe the argument had to take that possibility into account to remain logically sound.

J

[biabeli]

Spoiler alert: Knife of Dreams

 

I may have missed it but all of the above seem to asume that Lanfear has died.

 

It seems quite clear to me from KoD that Moiraine is probably coming back for a curtain bow.

 

If she can come back - why not Lanfear too?

 

Biabeli

The bigger the belly, the louder the laugh

[Jedimuppet]

Spoiler alert: Knife of Dreams

 

I may have missed it but all of the above seem to asume that Lanfear has died.

 

It seems quite clear to me from KoD that Moiraine is probably coming back for a curtain bow.

 

If she can come back - why not Lanfear too?

 

Biabeli

The bigger the belly' date=' the louder the laugh[/quote']

 

Because Lanfear has already appeared as Cyndane.

J