Something I haven't heard us talk on yet

[Dionysus]

There already are. They go by the quaint name of the Black Ajah. What does this have to do with bonding Asha'men?

 

The Black Ajah don't have all that much power in the Tower, especially with the power losses of Alviarin and Galina. Adding the Asha'man to the mix makes them an extremely powerful force to be reckoned with.

 

Why would darkfriend Asha'men need to be bonded to have them help the Black Sisters? In fact bringing in asha'men would be more likely to break the Black's cover more then anything else. So no, i see no benefit for the Shadow in having the Black Sisters bond Asha'men.

 

The only way for Taim to get the Asha'man into the whitetower is to be bonded as warders. And the Last Battle is right on the doorstop, sooner or later the Black Ajah are going to break their cover. How is having them there going to "out" the Black Ajah anyways?

 

A man can lead anyway... or a darkfriend sister. Why would they bring in men? Why would the men being bonded help? Most those men would be of the Light anyway, since the majority of the men being bonded are of the Light, even if the black ajah bonded every darkfriend Asha'men... it wouldn't really do much.

 

There are only so many black ajah in the tower, and they are so secretive that they don't know very many other Black Ajah sisters. This would make it impossible to form a very large circle with just Black Ajah sisters. In a circle mixed with Black Ajah/Good sisters, there is no guarantee that the BA sister will be in control of the circle, and you may just find that she is being used against you. With an army of darkfriend Asha'man in the tower, you ensure control of many circles, and the most powerful ones at that. As for the Asha'men being of the light, Pevara et al. made the proposition to Taim and his 100 cronies who are all darkfriends, so no there wouldnt be good Asha'man in the mix. Those are with the rebels, as Rand purposely only allowed them to bond soldiers and dedicated whereas most of Taims group have been promoted.

 

It's also not the Black Ajah that will be bonding the Asha'man, it is the Red Ajah.

[Luckers]

The Black Ajah don't have all that much power in the Tower, especially with the power losses of Alviarin and Galina. Adding the Asha'man to the mix makes them an extremely powerful force to be reckoned with.

 

What gave you that idea? They may number as much as 300 if not more. They are hidden amongst the normal sisters, in all the Ajah's. Bringing in asha'men would merely make it an open battle. Those Black Sisters could shatter the tower beyond repair and without warning. Also what makes you think Alviairin is lost? Because she's currently out of sorts?

 

The only way for Taim to get the Asha'man into the whitetower is to be bonded as warders. And the Last Battle is right on the doorstop, sooner or later the Black Ajah are going to break their cover. How is having them there going to "out" the Black Ajah anyways?

 

If the black ajah specifically go to bond them, it will need to be told to them. This will get to Atuan and the other blacks capture. Then all Pevara needs to do is keep an eye on who goes. I would have thought that obvious.

 

Taim has shown no particular interest in getting Asha'men into the whitetower. When it was offered to him he agreed, but likely that has more to do with escalating the confrontation between the two Aes Sedai--it's to increase chaos, not to aid in any particular way with the black sisters... moreover, even if he gutted his power group, and sent EVERY darkfriend Asha'man to the tower... it still wouldn't be any massive advantage.

 

And you still havn't answered the question of what bonding the asha'men has to do with this. In what way would that be helpful?

 

There are only so many black ajah in the tower, and they are so secretive that they don't know very many other Black Ajah sisters. This would make it impossible to form a very large circle with just Black Ajah sisters. In a circle mixed with Black Ajah/Good sisters, there is no guarantee that the BA sister will be in control of the circle, and you may just find that she is being used against you. With an army of darkfriend Asha'man in the tower, you ensure control of many circles, and the most powerful ones at that. As for the Asha'men being of the light, Pevara et al. made the proposition to Taim and his 100 cronies who are all darkfriends, so no there wouldnt be good Asha'man in the mix. Those are with the rebels, as Rand purposely only allowed them to bond soldiers and dedicated whereas most of Taims group have been promoted.

 

Actually they do this quite frequently... form large circles i mean. They do it all the time--when they gather the supreme council, when they discapline or raise someone. When they want information from a sister. As for the rest, theres no massive gain in that. For one, the circumstances in which a men must be in charge are rare, as you yourself posted. Secondly if the need for circles arises, it will be against an outside threat, in which case the asha'amen will be fighting any way, or against other Aes Sedai, in which case i extremely doubt they will be brought in to large forming circles (certainly not if it means they must be in charge). Its against the Aes Sedai's nature.

 

Where is this 'army' of asha'men coming from by the way. Taim has a hundred. He is hardly likely to gut that... as has been shown again and again, he keeps his power base around him. He wouldn't let his asha'men join the ones going north or south, and has the sleep in dorms around him. i suspect he will not allow more then 10, maybe... MAYBE 20 to be bonded. The rest will be other asha'men.

 

It's also not the Black Ajah that will be bonding the Asha'man, it is the Red Ajah.

 

 

Oh, ok... now your post makes a whole lot more sense. Sorry, we were discussing the black sisters bonding asha'men when you made your original post, and you never said you were going back to the Red Ajah.

 

Yes, no, ignoring the above... placing some darkfriend Asha'men in the tower will have repercussions, yet the amount, as i said, will be limited. Its simply implausible to think of them as a massive force in the tower. They will never be allowed to control circles in fights against the black ajah or the rebels, and if its against the seanchan... well then they will be wanting to fight in any case. I also think you underestimate the power of the Black Ajah. That being said, it will definately cause repercussions and chaos, which is what Taim wants.. i doubt he wants to place himself in the white tower though.

[Dionysus]

Yes, no, ignoring the above... placing some darkfriend Asha'men in the tower will have repercussions, yet the amount, as i said, will be limited. Its simply implausible to think of them as a massive force in the tower. They will never be allowed to control circles in fights against the black ajah or the rebels, and if its against the seanchan... well then they will be wanting to fight in any case. I also think you underestimate the power of the Black Ajah. That being said, it will definately cause repercussions and chaos, which is what Taim wants.. i doubt he wants to place himself in the white tower though.

 

I agree that the Black Ajah is still a very large force to be reckoned with. The White Tower is definitely in danger, with an attack by the Seanchan coming up and the continued siege by the rebels, it is ripe for the taking, or destruction. This is one of the reasons why I think Taim will be going there as per Moridins instructions, to take out the symbol of this age's power.

 

As for your conclusions about the circles, I disagree. I think that in most circumstances the men will be leading them for a couple reasons:

 

Pretty well any circle with 13 or less channelers and more than one man, a man must lead. When Pevara talks about bonding the Asha'man, she says they can handle 2 or 3 each (or was it 3 or 4?). When an attack comes and it becomes wise to form circles to better protect the White Tower, the reds that form circles will more than likely bring in both of their warders into the circles, making it mandatory for the man to channel. The circles will have a hard time reaching above 13 because of the distrust that has been prevalent in the tower recently. Ajahs hardly trust each other anymore, imo not enough to form circles with sisters of other Ajahs. Also in an attack, there will be many different areas to defend, since the Seanchan will be using aerial (sp?) attacks and the rebels would be using gateways and such. It would make sense for them to have several different attack/defense forces able to provide a front on several different areas as opposed to a monster circle focusing on one area at a time.

 

I haven't studied this next point, so it could be totally off base it just came to me while writing this.

 

Scenario:

 

The White Tower is under attack by the Seanchan and/or the rebels (who could be trying to defend the tower against the Seanchan but mistaken as an attack against it). The Red sisters are running around finding other red sisters to form circles. Three red sisters come across Pevara and her 3 Asha'man warders and they decide to link together. At this point, since a man must lead the circle when there is more than one man and less than 13 channelers, does the link have to be passed to the male channeler? Once the link goes over 13 then it can be passed back to the female channeler? Is the only way to bring a circle above 13 without passing the link over to the man is to have 13 females linked together, then add the man?

[pennst92]

remember a circle of 13 darkfriends who can channel can force someone who walks in the light to become a darkfriend...thus, I suspect that Pevara and those accompanying her may wind up under the dark one's sway before all is said and done...

[Luckers]

They need Myrrdraal to do that, and even then its supposed to be very hard. Twelve channelers can force the thirteenth into the circle though, which amounts to control of at least some random light aes sedai.

 

I still don't think the presense of ten or twenty men will cause that much of a problem... yes, they may be able to take control of one or two circles in the middle of a battle with the seanchan (there i no way they would be involved in a confrontation with the rebels... maybe... maybe the black ajah, though i doubt it.)

 

And so what if they do. Yes male/female circles are powerful, but they will have to be controling the women in it at the same time as fighting others... and a circle of thirteen aes sedai is not negligable... throw in that the Tower has sa'angreal and angreal at its call, and the rebels have up to 50 Asha'men of their own...

 

It may cause some trouble... but what doesn't these days. I don't see it being either terrible, or insurmountable.

[Chel Vanin]

Since when do the rebels have 50 Asha'Man? I was under the impression that they had the go ahead to bond them but hadn't gone to the Black Tower to do so...

 

Also, if both sides of the White Tower are bonding Asha'Man then will the Black Tower get doubled up and lose 100 Asha'Man instead of 50? Most of those will be Rand's b/c, as Luckers said , Taim wants his little darkfriend ahsa'man around him at all time and won't like letting them go.

[Dionysus]

At the end of KoD an Asha'man says something to the effect of "Why should we let them bond anym.." before getting knocked out by Taim. This suggests that the rebel army have already gone and picked out their warders. Although it could also suggest that Taim is aware and his cronies are aware of the fact that Rand has offered the rebel Aes Sedai the opportunity to bond some Asha'man.

[Dionysus]

I still don't think the presense of ten or twenty men will cause that much of a problem... yes, they may be able to take control of one or two circles in the middle of a battle with the seanchan (there i no way they would be involved in a confrontation with the rebels... maybe... maybe the black ajah, though i doubt it.)

 

And so what if they do. Yes male/female circles are powerful, but they will have to be controling the women in it at the same time as fighting others... and a circle of thirteen aes sedai is not negligable... throw in that the Tower has sa'angreal and angreal at its call, and the rebels have up to 50 Asha'men of their own...

 

It may cause some trouble... but what doesn't these days. I don't see it being either terrible, or insurmountable.

 

Couple points, you say one or two circles, when in reality it will be the majority of circles in the tower I believe. The Red Ajah is by far the largest Ajah in the tower right now, with the other 6 Ajahs essentially being split in half by the division in the White Tower, and with them being the largest Ajah even before the split. I would probably put their numbers at around 75+ of the 200 or so sisters in the Tower at the moment. Add to that ~50 Asha'man, 18-24 taken by Pevara's group and another trip to bond more to balance the numbers taken by the rebels and you have around 125 channelers, which coincidentally is equal to the rest of the tower combined.

 

Then you add to that the problems that other Ajahs are going to have to form circles, if they continue their distrust of all other Ajahs and such, it will be hard for them to form circles of anything above 5 or 6 sisters on average.

 

Then you have circles with an equal balance between male and females being the most powerful. And you have Taim being Forsaken trained, and one of the things that were probably taught to him is how to properly use circles, which were used frequently back in the AoL. Taim passes this info onto his students, and you have a very powerful army.

 

As to what the purpose of having them in the tower will be, it will be something with the Seanchan/Rebel Tower. You suggest that they wont be allowed to be in circles against the rebels, why not? A campaign of half truths and lies can easily pit the White Tower in open war with the Rebel Aes Sedai, especially with Taim coming under the guise of subservient servant wanting to help the White Tower against the evil Logain who is holding a grudge against the White Tower for illegally gentling him, planting lies against the Red Ajah, and bonded over 50 sisters earlier. Not to mention the Rebel Aes Sedai have already bonded over 50 of their own Asha'man which they could make out as an act of war.

[Luckers]

You're forgetting the fact that Taim would never let that man of his darkfriends be bonded... it's weaken his power base too much. I frankly doubt he'd let 20 be bonded, but ill put that at the outside limit. This means that the darkfriends will all be bonded by the first group of 6.

 

Moreover, concider the fact that Aes Sedai arn't complete idiots. Its possible they wont want to bond any of Taim's close asha'men and wont try. Taim made a mistake in letting those he trusts be seen. A blunt display of power that shows Pevara and the others exactly who Taim conciders to be loyal to him--they would want ones they can control, not ones that are influenced directly by Taim. Moreover Pevara and the others picked up on the unpleasent nature of those men... they may seek more compatable warders in any case.

 

But assuming every one of those they bond is a darkfriend, and each of those sisters forms a seperate circle... thats still only six circles they control.

 

and another trip to bond more to balance the numbers taken by the rebels

 

Then you would have 30 asha'men who are friends of the light. Do you really see Taim depleting his man power by half? Especially in the face of growing tensions with Logain, which you can be certain he is aware of.

 

In any case i dont see this happening. Pevara had enough difficulty finding 3 other Reds willing to bond men. She intends to keep the fact that she has bonded men secret. And she has no reason to know the rebels have bonded fifty asha'men (it seems Taim is trying to keep them from knowing that).

 

And then there is the fact that there is no time for this to be done. It seems the Seanchan invasion is iminant. In the aftermath of that i dont think anyone doubts that the tower will be reunited under Egwene. After that bonding more men will be less relevant... it'll still happen, but i doubt Pevara will be as gung ho about it. Then theres the fact that Taim's control of the Black Tower will not last.

 

Then you have circles with an equal balance between male and females being the most powerful. And you have Taim being Forsaken trained, and one of the things that were probably taught to him is how to properly use circles, which were used frequently back in the AoL. Taim passes this info onto his students, and you have a very powerful army.

 

Actually i doubt this. Taim was taught enough to be useful, but not enough to be a threat. For instance he wasn't taught how to Travel, his use of compulsion is limited and his understanding of weapon weaves seems small. But mostly if he was trained then he was trained by a man. I see no reason for Ishy or the others to teach him circles, and i see no way for them to do it even if they wanted to. Plus if they had taught taim what you suggest then they would have made themselves vunerable to his control... i dont see them doing that.

 

You suggest that they wont be allowed to be in circles against the rebels, why not?

 

There is no way that an Aes Sedai will put a man in charge of a circle when confronting other Aes Sedai. They are too indoctrinated in the Aes Sedai way to even concider it. maybe... MAYBE against the black ajah, but i suspect the Black uprising will be too sudden to even concider that, and if Circles were formed with men against them, it would be done so quickly that it would likely only be a few people involved and the overall benefit is again zilch.

 

A campaign of half truths and lies can easily pit the White Tower in open war with the Rebel Aes Sedai, especially with Taim coming under the guise of subservient servant wanting to help the White Tower against the evil Logain who is holding a grudge against the White Tower for illegally gentling him, planting lies against the Red Ajah, and bonded over 50 sisters earlier.

 

This seems extremely unlikely. By all evidence in the books the Seanchan will attack forcing the Rebels and the Tower Aes sedai to rejoin under Egwene. Moreover the Tower Aes Sedai trust the Rebels more then they do the other Ajahs in the tower. Finally Taim would never do that. It's completely against his character. It puts him at risk when he has no reason to even bother, and there is no way that there is time for such a campeign. Incidently, the White Tower gentled Logain legally.

 

The simple fact is a scenario in which this would be beneficial to the shadow is both unlikely, and disproven by what we know will happen.