Channelers - Sparkers and Learners ?

[Achmed]

Ok, as RJ has made clear channelers either channel innately or must be taught to channel.  I have a few questions about them.

 

Are there more sparkers or learners?  I get the feeling that learners are more prevalent.

 

Strength wise, sparkers or learners?  At the beginning I got the feeling (from the 3 wonder girls and Rand) that sparkers were stronger but Sharina seems to have thrown this in doubt.

[bcxanth]

There are indeed far more of those that can be taught, then those who are born with it. Observe teh way the Novice ranks swell in Egwene's camp yet only a small number of those are sparkers.

 

As for strength, it doesn't seem to make a difference. Whatever it is that determines the amount of power a channeler can ultimately wield, it seems to have no relation to if they are sparkers or learners.

[Charlz Guybon]

Ok, as RJ has made clear channelers either channel innately or must be taught to channel.  I have a few questions about them.

 

Are there more sparkers or learners?  I get the feeling that learners are more prevalent.

 

Strength wise, sparkers or learners?  At the beginning I got the feeling (from the 3 wonder girls and Rand) that sparkers were stronger but Sharina seems to have thrown this in doubt.

Learners are much more prevalent as the Seanchan show, there are always many more Suldam than Damane. On the whole Sparkers are stronger but there are so many more learners that the odds favor some being very strong.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, it seems there is no correlation between being a sparker or learner, and strength in the Power.

[Charlz Guybon]

Actually, it seems there is no correlation between being a sparker or learner, and strength in the Power.

Who besides Sharina is especially strong? It just makes sense for sparkers to be stronger; if channeling works genetically like I think it does, then sparkers should have two copies of the channeling gene, while learners only have one.

[Luckers]

Of the Aes Sedai upper levels, we know that Moiraine and Suine were both sparkers. Romanda and Cadsuane were both born in Far Madding, and both left to go get training, so its likely they WERE trained as opposed to sparking, yet that doesn't mean they might not have eventually sparked. Lelaine we have no clue about. Nicola is a learner, and she's around Cadsuane's strength.

 

There does seem to be a lot of strong sparkers, and Verin does mention to Nynaeve once that sparkers do tend to be power, or rather she implies it, though its rather loose and could mean other things.

 

What I more interested in is how Learners manage to teach themselves. The Seanchan sul'dam managed it likely because of long exposure to the power, and to links. But what of joe random... we know its possible with immense concentration and desire, but just how much? Does it take months of meditation? Could a Learner simply learn the mental conditioning of reaching out to the source, and learn that way, or does it require a catalyst, like Moiraine trick with the blue stone, or Taim's trick with the flame... insighting a resonance... the BWB implies that it does on the section about the age of legends, and yet when would a Learner be exposed to a resonance if they needed to learn themselves.

[Charlz Guybon]

Of the Aes Sedai upper levels, we know that Moiraine and Suine were both sparkers. Romanda and Cadsuane were both born in Far Madding, and both left to go get training, so its likely they WERE trained as opposed to sparking, yet that doesn't mean they might not have eventually sparked. Lelaine we have no clue about. Nicola is a learner, and she's around Cadsuane's strength.

 

There does seem to be a lot of strong sparkers, and Verin does mention to Nynaeve once that sparkers do tend to be power, or rather she implies it, though its rather loose and could mean other things.

 

What I more interested in is how Learners manage to teach themselves. The Seanchan sul'dam managed it likely because of long exposure to the power, and to links. But what of joe random... we know its possible with immense concentration and desire, but just how much? Does it take months of meditation? Could a Learner simply learn the mental conditioning of reaching out to the source, and learn that way, or does it require a catalyst, like Moiraine trick with the blue stone, or Taim's trick with the flame... insighting a resonance... the BWB implies that it does on the section about the age of legends, and yet when would a Learner be exposed to a resonance if they needed to learn themselves.

 

Have we even run into any learner who's managed to teach themselves? I don't think so.

[Luckers]

Aside from Bethamin and Seta, who are different from your average learner, no we havn't, but we do know its possible, thanks to RJ.

 

 

[Guest cwestervelt]

I believe we are told, more than once, that someone who can learn but does not have the spark will never touch the True Source unless someone guides them.

[Luckers]

Thats the common belief in the book, but RJ made it quite clear at DragonCon 2005 that Learner can touch the source of their own volition but it requires immense concentration and effort.

 

Q. Someone who can learn but doesn’t have the spark, can they channel unconsciously?

 

A. No. For them, they must have a teacher to guide them, or make a conscious effort, which is unlikely to succeed, but might.

 

I cut out part of it, which dealt with Nynaeve conciously touching the source, but this is the significant part. Theres another part somewhere in there where he goes into much more detail about what the degree of concious effort would be for a Learner, but im hungry.

[Guest cwestervelt]

"Unlikely to succeed, but might"

 

I'd read that as saying it just ain't gonna happen. :)

[Luckers]

I never tried to present it as if it was likely... indeed, that is the point of my questions, under what sort of extreme circumstances might it happen.

 

And sorry cwestervelt, but he did say might.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Who besides Sharina is especially strong? It just makes sense for sparkers to be stronger; if channeling works genetically like I think it does, then sparkers should have two copies of the channeling gene, while learners only have one.

 

The ability to channel is confirmed as having a genetic component, however, that component cannot be what controls the strength of the channeler.  The evidence?  Aran'gar, Osan'gar, and Moridin.  Three souls put into completely different bodies, without any loss of strength in the Power.  Not only was there no loss, but there was no gain either.  In one case there was even a gender switch in the body, with no gender switch in the Power.  To claim that all three bodies were found with genetically determined strength identical to three Forsaken (two of whom, Aginor and Ishamael, were in Lews Therin's close range) is stretching coincidence much farther than I'm willing to believe.

 

The genetic component of channeling seems to be nothing more than an on/off switch.  Either your body can, or it can't.  Everything else is determined by the soul in that body.

 

So, it seems very, very unlikely that some sort of "double gene" is the cause for either the difference between sparkers and learners, or a person's strength in the Power.

[Luckers]

Well possibly its more than just on/off, maybe it is the cause for the difference between sparkers and learners? Not in the way Charlz meant, just in the ease with which the body relates to the power.

 

On the other hand, maybe souls only fit into bodies that accomodate their nature, and thats how rebirth is decided. Certainly it would be fairly nasty if Rand's soul returned in a body with the channeling gene switched completely off.

[drovja]

On the other hand, maybe souls only fit into bodies that accomodate their nature, and thats how rebirth is decided. Certainly it would be fairly nasty if Rand's soul returned in a body with the channeling gene switched completely off.

 

Isn't that going to happen sooner or later though?  If the Wheel were to spin out LTT's soul in an Age where channeling hasn't been discovered, that's exactly the case.

[bcxanth]

On the other hand, maybe souls only fit into bodies that accomodate their nature, and thats how rebirth is decided. Certainly it would be fairly nasty if Rand's soul returned in a body with the channeling gene switched completely off.

 

Isn't that going to happen sooner or later though?  If the Wheel were to spin out LTT's soul in an Age where channeling hasn't been discovered, that's exactly the case.

I think though that the Dragon's soul is only going to be spun out at a time when it's needed to fight the DO. And I think that probably the only time he's needed to fight the DO is in Ages when there are Channelers able to break the DO from from his prison.

[Guest cwestervelt]

On the other hand, maybe souls only fit into bodies that accomodate their nature, and thats how rebirth is decided. Certainly it would be fairly nasty if Rand's soul returned in a body with the channeling gene switched completely off.

 

Isn't that going to happen sooner or later though?  If the Wheel were to spin out LTT's soul in an Age where channeling hasn't been discovered, that's exactly the case.

I think though that the Dragon's soul is only going to be spun out at a time when it's needed to fight the DO. And I think that probably the only time he's needed to fight the DO is in Ages when there are Channelers able to break the DO from from his prison.

 

Hawkwing tells Rand they have fought against each other as often as beside each other.  Rand just can't remember because he is currently in the flesh.  That doesn't really fit with Lews Therin only being spun out when he is needed to oppose the Dark One.

 

I would say is more likely that Lews Therin gets spun out just like any of the other Heroes.  Anytime the pattern requires a catalyst that meets certain criteria.  From Thom's comments about Birgitte, we can figure that not all incarnations of a Hero are recognized as such.

[keith_rogers_irl]

If you think about it... Say you have the ability to learn. you don't know it, because it's latent untill you actually touch the sourse. I don't think someone would  one day decide :

 

"I know. I'm going to meditate for a few hours, concintrate realllllly hard, then do something to touch the true source, even though I have no clue WHAT it is, or feels like. Just on the off chance that I MAY be able to channel"