Who is that giant pack of Darkhounds hunting?

[Majsju]

Fain seemed the obvious candidate to me as soon as I read about it. He is a wildcard, and more than just an annoyance, he is a direct threat to the shadow. And when even the shadows #1 assassin Slayer has major troubles hunting him down, it makes sense that they bring in the heavy artillery.

 

Tuon? Not a chance.

[Luckers]

Fain seems unlikely to me... of for blunt reasons, sure. But concider... sending a pack of dogs to hunt a man who has proven his manouvrability, a man who has not been in that paticular area since early in the fourth book...?

 

The Darkhounds have no especial ability to hunt particular individuals, unless set to track at a particular source, and the Shadow has no such source for Fain. Moreover, the shadow already has an individual hunting Fain... and an individual far more capable of following an dealing with Fain and his manouvrability than a pack of darkhounds.

 

Fain is simply not that significant... and don';t get me wrong when i say that, a traitor who has defied the shadow time and again IS significant... but at that stage Fain had played no role to result in a renewed and specific interest... and a pack of fifty darkhounds when prior to that above ten was concidered stupid due to their inclination to turn on each others is very specific. It simply doesn't fit.. if Fain had done something to deserve such an interest, sending Darkhounds seems foolish. Their methodology is simply not designed to deal with something like Fain.

 

And why is Tuon so categorically dismiss Maj? She, unlike Fain, is a target creatures like Darkhounds could track, and could kill. She, unlike Fain, is in the area. She, unlike Fain, had gained the direct attention of one of the Forsaken, and her existance stood in the way of that Forsaken's plan... quite directly, whatever her comments to Suroth.

 

Frankly, I think Tuon is the only possibility that has any evidence for her. Absent of her, there is no evidence suggesting any target, and therefore every target is an option, and this discussion becomes rather pointless.

[Majsju]

Sending a pack of 50 darkhounds to hunt down one little girl? Right...

 

If the shadow had considered it That important to kill Tuon, it would have made way more sense to use Slayer. They should have a rough estimate regarding the whereabouts of Tuon, knowing when she left, and that it's not likely that there is anyone capable of making gateways with that party, considering the way they left. Slayer seems a far better candidate to get the job done, and without causing too much of a mess. We already know that Slayer is not tied up hunting Fain, as we have seen him take other missions.

 

But even so, that requires that the shadow sees it as so important to kill Tuon that they would take extreme measures. And Semirhages comments rather points at someone not caring one way or the other, and Semirhage is obviously the forsaken closest to the Seanchan. Claiming that Tuon stands in the way of the forsakens plan is a quite empty claim, considering what we've seen of the forsakens ability to control rulers who needs to be controlled.

 

There is also the little matter of Tuon not being revealing herself. For Tuon to be able to act as empress, she much return to lands held by Seanchan, and thus return to Semirhage. And from what we know of Semirhage, she would very much prefer to kill Tuon herself.

 

Sending 50 darkhounds to kill someone whose death is not necessary, seems like not only overkill, but also very very foolish.

 

Also, the location is very, very wrong. If the darkhounds had been sent after Tuon, as mentioned they would have a rough idea of which area she might be in. And there is no way mats party could have reaced Perrins camp without Travelling.

[Cybertrolloc]

And why is Tuon so categorically dismiss Maj? She, unlike Fain, is a target creatures like Darkhounds could track, and could kill. She, unlike Fain, is in the area. She, unlike Fain, had gained the direct attention of one of the Forsaken, and her existance stood in the way of that Forsaken's plan... quite directly, whatever her comments to Suroth.

 

Frankly, I think Tuon is the only possibility that has any evidence for her. Absent of her, there is no evidence suggesting any target, and therefore every target is an option, and this discussion becomes rather pointless.

The darkhounds ignore Perrin's party in Ghealden or next door. (I'd think that we can buy the Aes Sedai's assessment on that). That takes out Perrin, Elyas, rest with him as a target.

 

Now Tuon was on a boat until a few months ago. Since then, she took at least one raken ride, otherwise has been around Ebou Dar then _slowly_ heading north. Unless there's something else tricky going on with say Mat's bat-belt medallion... ;) Any Forsaken has better ways to deal with Tuon if she's a threat, use Slayer or just find her by dream, yank her into TaR and gank her. That's assuming not Semi and that Semi didn't throw a tracer on her either (which is possible, well it's Jordan so probable).

 

I'm thinking maybe one of the dead Forsaken or someone who can't get free much like Arangar, Sammael, etc... (how about Taim?) has them hunting Rand (who does move around quite a bit).

 

Edit: sorta ninja'd by Maj. Consider points we both bring up as proven ;)

[Digbe]

Is it possible that the darkhounds could turn up at the showdown with borderlander army and their aes sedai(well, the Aes Sedai anyways.) trying to capture rand.  Perrin & Wolf & Co. then save the day.    Cue credits and insert Full House theme song?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Again, they are not in the same general area.  The Borderland army is, or at least was, somewhere north of Caemlyn and getting ready to move towards Luggard.  The Dark Hound pack was somewhere in southern Gealdan if I remember right.  I'd say the chances would be better that Rahvin set them to find Morgase.  And the chances of that are so small they probably couldn't be measured.

[Majsju]

Again, they are not in the same general area.  The Borderland army is, or at least was, somewhere north of Caemlyn and getting ready to move towards Luggard.  The Dark Hound pack was somewhere in southern Gealdan if I remember right.  I'd say the chances would be better that Rahvin set them to find Morgase.  And the chances of that are so small they probably couldn't be measured.

 

Considering that rahvin was balefired into last week, I'd say those chances are pretty much zero

[Guest cwestervelt]

Again, they are not in the same general area.  The Borderland army is, or at least was, somewhere north of Caemlyn and getting ready to move towards Luggard.  The Dark Hound pack was somewhere in southern Gealdan if I remember right.  I'd say the chances would be better that Rahvin set them to find Morgase.  And the chances of that are so small they probably couldn't be measured.

 

Considering that rahvin was balefired into last week, I'd say those chances are pretty much zero

 

I just didn't want to rule anything out completely.  Leave a little room for surprises.  But yes, I agree with the chances being zero.

[Majsju]

Ah right, there was another thing against Tuon that was nagging me, but I couldn't bring it up until I got home so i could pick up the book.

 

There is always a feel of urgency about Darkhounds' trails, but it varies according to a number of factors, not all of which I can be certain of. This one has an intense admixture of...I suppose you could call it impatience. That isn't really strong enough, by far-as well call a stabwound a pinprick - but it will do. I would say their hunt has been going on for some time, and their prey is eluding them somehow.

 

Masuri, COT chapter 7, Blacksmith's Puzzle.

 

Now, this takes place the same day as chapter 1, where Mat thinks about how it's been six nights since they escaped Ebou Dar.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Fain does seem by far the most likely candidate.  His ability to elude them, the fact that as Shadowspawn, they might be able to track the Shadar Logoth taint in ways they couldn't track "normal" prey, the possibility that Slayer is directing them, Fain's deadliness and ability to acquire followers justifying the "overkill" of sending fifty+ Darkhounds after one man, the length of their hunt ... all those things seem to point to Fain, not Tuon.

[Luckers]

Sending a pack of 50 darkhounds to hunt down one little girl? Right...

 

Yes, exactly right. I'm glad you agree.

 

Your silly sarcasm aside, yes, Tuon makes a target worth that sort of effort. Unless of course you think the control of 800,000 of the best trained troops in the world, including the only airforce and perhaps as much as 8,000 damane is nothing to the shadow. My god man, recall when this took place... exactly when Semirhage was making her move to ensure total control of the Empire. It takes place a bare smattering of days after Semirhage made the move to kill the entire royal family, and initiate the decent into anarchy to open up for Suroth to become Empress and for the Shadow to consolidate its hold on Seanchan forces...

 

And you want to imply that Tuon is no more important than a... how did you put it? 'little girl'?

 

If the shadow had considered it That important to kill Tuon, it would have made way more sense to use Slayer. They should have a rough estimate regarding the whereabouts of Tuon, knowing when she left, and that it's not likely that there is anyone capable of making gateways with that party, considering the way they left. Slayer seems a far better candidate to get the job done, and without causing too much of a mess. We already know that Slayer is not tied up hunting Fain, as we have seen him take other missions.

 

What gave you that idea? Mat specifically chose the managerie to AVOID people being able to estimate how far they could have travelled. And Slayer needs to know exactly where his prey is, as we have seen in those other missions of yours. No, they need creatures to track her down... hmm... darkhounds pop to mind.

 

But who's to say Semirhage doesn't have Slayer hunting them too. Addmitedly i find it unlikely--Slayer would be a pointless choice for such a task, and the last we saw he was under a man's direction--but its certainly not impossible.

 

But even so, that requires that the shadow sees it as so important to kill Tuon that they would take extreme measures. And Semirhages comments rather points at someone not caring one way or the other, and Semirhage is obviously the forsaken closest to the Seanchan. Claiming that Tuon stands in the way of the forsakens plan is a quite empty claim, considering what we've seen of the forsakens ability to control rulers who needs to be controlled.

 

Semirhage comments on this TO Suroth, and for the specific purpose of keeping her from over-assuming her own importance; but if you think that the disapearence of a woman of the light--a woman who could assert complete domination of the Seanchan armies--is something that Semirhage doesn't care about... well, then this discussion is kind of pointless.

 

Incidently, if Tuon is such a nothing to Semirhage, why would she go to the effort of disguising herself as Tuon to extort jewellery and thus setup the reason for the real Tuon's death... or did you miss that?

 

Oh, and side point. To control someone, you sort of have to be near them.

 

There is also the little matter of Tuon not being revealing herself. For Tuon to be able to act as empress, she much return to lands held by Seanchan, and thus return to Semirhage. And from what we know of Semirhage, she would very much prefer to kill Tuon herself.

 

Has it occured to you that by all signs, Tuon was abducted by Aes Sedai? Has it occured to you that Semirhage would fear the influence of whoever abducted her? Has it occured to you, that wherever Tuon resurfaced, and for whatever point she was abducted, she would be protected, and people who don't know her would be kept away?

 

Because I'm fairly sure that all this occured to Semirhage. It's too late in the game to have someone who can wield such immediate power as Tuon can be away from Semirhage's control. She is right in the middle of ensuring that the Seanchan serve the Shadow, and that that cant be broken. The only person who could do that--and do that with ease--is Tuon... and you think she's unimportant. I'm sorry man, are we reading the same books?

 

Sending 50 darkhounds to kill someone whose death is not necessary, seems like not only overkill, but also very very foolish.

 

Agreed. And i notice you havn't addressed my comments about Fain at all.

 

Sending 50 darkhounds to track a man they cannot--cannot keep up with, or indeed, even hope to track through the ways--who has done nothing to endanger the Shadows interest openly for nearly a year--and therefore would not have done anything to have caused such a renewed and dramatic interest on behalf of the shadow--that seems not only beyond foolish, but absurd as well.

 

Sending them to find the woman who could take singlehanded control of the Seanchan Empire and all the force that goes with it, a woman who they can't find, is not where she should be by then, and needs to be tracked down. Oh yes... very foolish. In fact, why doesn't the Shadow surrender right now, its so foolish.

 

Also, the location is very, very wrong. If the darkhounds had been sent after Tuon, as mentioned they would have a rough idea of which area she might be in. And there is no way mats party could have reaced Perrins camp without Travelling.

 

Except they weren't hunting Perrin's party, they were moving south. Beyond that the location is very very right. Mat's party could have travelled in three direction, to track them adequately the search would have to sweep from west to east, starting as if they had fled into Amadecia andmoving accross the Altara to Illian until they find the scent. Arguably it might have been wiser to go to Ebou Dar first, yet in truth i think this the more intelligent path... the path direct to Ebou Dar passes through not only several Seanchan armies, but passes very close to both Rand's land--including the Aiel in Andor, and the Asha'men in the Black Tower--and the armies of the Aes Sedai.

 

Meanwhile, if Tuon had headed west, that would have left her time to get even further away into Seanchan held lands where she might possibly re-establish herself. Recall that Semirhage's concern is for someone to set Tuon up elsewhere in Seanchan held lands, and take the reigns of power. The idea that they might make a bee-line out of Seanchan land would not have been instantly obvious if you were looking at the situation from Semirhage's position, and even if it were Semirhage would have to concider the alternatives.

 

No, the location makes a lot of sense to me. Sweep down uncontested, then move east to Ebou Dar and if you find Tuon heading west, remove her. From Ebou Dar find the trail, and we're off. Expedient, effective and intelligent.

 

Now Tuon was on a boat until a few months ago. Since then, she took at least one raken ride, otherwise has been around Ebou Dar then _slowly_ heading north. Unless there's something else tricky going on with say Mat's bat-belt medallion...  Any Forsaken has better ways to deal with Tuon if she's a threat, use Slayer or just find her by dream, yank her into TaR and gank her. That's assuming not Semi and that Semi didn't throw a tracer on her either (which is possible, well it's Jordan so probable).

 

Slayer is out... he has no way of tracking Tuon, no way of predicting where she would be, no way of guessing she would be at the managerie even if he did pass it in the dreamworld... certainly her wagon would look nothing like her personality, even inside, as if the absurdity of him checking isn't obvious.

 

The possibility of her being yanked into TAR does seem mildly plausible... but then why hasn't it been done? Irrespective of whether you think the Darkhounds are after her, you cannot doubt that the Shadow wants her dead... Semirhage, despite her flippancy with Suroth, went to a fairly decent effort to kill off the royal family and leave Suroth in charge, thereby assuring Shadow a controlling interest in the Seanchan forces. In the persuit of Tuon, Semirhage disguised herself and tried to extort jewellery in order to arouse fury and let the murder of Tuon become acceptable. I mean the threat alone of Tuon in someone elses hands...

 

RJ has stated that entering a persons dream, entering TAR, and being able to interperat someones dreams are all different talents. Maybe Semirhage doesn't have the talent for entering peoples dreams. Maybe she doesn't know Tuon's dreams, and therefore can't find them. Of the surviving forsaken, the only ones with true dreaming abilities are under Moridin's thumb, and according to all evidence he's remaining aloof, but even if she did approach him, how would he or Cyndane or Moghedian know Tuon's dreams? She is no Ta'veren, to be found through ta'maral'ailen, and at that stage none of the Forsaken knew Mat was with her. Hell, maybe even the web of destiny around Mat distorts the pattern enough to make her dreams unreachable.

 

So, frankly, i don't know why it hadn't been done, only that if it were possible it would have been done. The risk of Tuon at large to the Shadow's interest is simply too great if such an easy method were avialliable.

 

As for a Seeker, its possible that Semirhage did throw one on Tuon. But Seekers on the flesh fade in hours, it works best on metal, and Tuon carries no metal with her; any on her clothes would have been abandoned when she was first taken and hidden as a servant.

 

So frankly, no i dont see the Shadow having a better method than using Darkhounds. In fact, aside from that TAR idea, it seems to be their only method, to my mind.

 

Ah right, there was another thing against Tuon that was nagging me, but I couldn't bring it up until I got home so i could pick up the book.

 

 

Quote

There is always a feel of urgency about Darkhounds' trails, but it varies according to a number of factors, not all of which I can be certain of. This one has an intense admixture of...I suppose you could call it impatience. That isn't really strong enough, by far-as well call a stabwound a pinprick - but it will do. I would say their hunt has been going on for some time, and their prey is eluding them somehow.

 

Masuri, COT chapter 7, Blacksmith's Puzzle.

 

Now, this takes place the same day as chapter 1, where Mat thinks about how it's been six nights since they escaped Ebou Dar.

 

Fair enough. Only good point against Tuon I've seen so far. And inherent to it is some evidence against my main point against Fain, being that he would elude them too easily--this is possibly suggesting that he has been, though its still not enough to sell the idea.

 

But, points against it.

 

Firstly, there is possibly a difference in between between the two moments, despite their chronology in the book. There were as much as twenty days difference between certain chapters that were one after the other, depending on whos storyline was running at the time.

 

Secondly, a run from the borderlands could theoretically be concidered a long hunt, and Masuri's expert opinion depends entirely on some half-felt feeling of impatience. We all know how trustworthy Aes Sedai opinions are on things that arn't verifiable. The whole matter of their prey elluding them, or delay in there hunt could as easily be impatience to begin the hunt. Certainly we know the Darkhounds have been kept on a short leash.

 

So, all in all good point. Doesn't settle matters for me, and i still concider Fain to be the least likely candidate and Tuon to be the most, but this does mussy up the works.

[Cybertrolloc]

RJ has stated that entering a persons dream' date=' entering TAR, and being able to interperat someones dreams are all different talents. Maybe Semirhage doesn't have the talent for entering peoples dreams. Maybe she doesn't know Tuon's dreams, and therefore can't find them. Of the surviving forsaken, the only ones with true dreaming abilities are under Moridin's thumb, and according to all evidence he's remaining aloof, but even if she did approach him, how would he or Cyndane or Moghedian know Tuon's dreams? She is no Ta'veren, to be found through ta'maral'ailen, and at that stage none of the Forsaken knew Mat was with her. Hell, maybe even the web of destiny around Mat distorts the pattern enough to make her dreams unreachable.[/quote']

It's unfortunate when things come down to things RJ didn't think of... Semi has been with Tuon for at least a few months. Tuon is known for disappearences, and Semi has a particular skill set ;) It's stupid that Tuon isn't a shadow minion by now.

 

I'm thinking of Asmo in Rand's dreams. I'd take the background on things TaR and dream as what's known to the present day people. All of the Forsaken have some skill in TaR or they seem to use the power to duplicate innate TaR skill.

 

On the tracer, it's Semi. She could sneak a pound of metal into Tuon's body to cast the tracer on if needed ;) However, remember the first time she's on camera: thinking about how careful and diligent she is, then she screws up and kills the warder.

 

On darkhounds searching for Tuon: why not multiple packs then? A forsaken would know that any channelers near Tuon have ShadowSense after all.

 

Your response to Maj, et al does contain good reasoning and application of WoT known stuff though.

[Majsju]

Your silly sarcasm aside, yes, Tuon makes a target worth that sort of effort. Unless of course you think the control of 800,000 of the best trained troops in the world, including the only airforce and perhaps as much as 8,000 damane is nothing to the shadow. My god man, recall when this took place... exactly when Semirhage was making her move to ensure total control of the Empire. It takes place a bare smattering of days after Semirhage made the move to kill the entire royal family, and initiate the decent into anarchy to open up for Suroth to become Empress and for the Shadow to consolidate its hold on Seanchan forces...

 

And you want to imply that Tuon is no more important than a... how did you put it? 'little girl'?

 

First of all, the 'little girl' remark refers to Tuons ability to defend herself against someone like Slayer, or even the average myrdraal. She can't channel, she is unarmed, and her fancy moves that might be very good against common blokes would not do her any good against such enemies.

 

As for Semirhage getting control of the Seanchan, with Tuon missing, she has a great deal of control through Suroth, and if that pesky general proved to be too much of an interference, "convincing" him to change his mind would not exactly be that much of a challenge to a forsaken. And if Tuon would return, jolly, Semirhage is in a position where she can reach Tuon close to 24/7.

 

But rather than a touch of compulsion, or killing Tuon in her sleep, Semirhage would call in the heavy artillery? Semirhage would get permission to use the superpack of darkhounds as a "reward" for screwing up, permission from the DO who does not exactly look kindly on failure?

 

Has it occured to you that by all signs, Tuon was abducted by Aes Sedai? Has it occured to you that Semirhage would fear the influence of whoever abducted her? Has it occured to you, that wherever Tuon resurfaced, and for whatever point she was abducted, she would be protected, and people who don't know her would be kept away?

 

Because I'm fairly sure that all this occured to Semirhage. It's too late in the game to have someone who can wield such immediate power as Tuon can be away from Semirhage's control. She is right in the middle of ensuring that the Seanchan serve the Shadow, and that that cant be broken. The only person who could do that--and do that with ease--is Tuon... and you think she's unimportant. I'm sorry man, are we reading the same books?

 

"People who don't know her would be kept away" Do you know who Semirhage pretended to be? Oh, right, one of few people who would be granted immidiate access to Tuon. And as seen in KOD, Semirhage does not exactly seem to consider a few Aes Sedai bodyguards as that much of an obstacle.

 

And you happily ignore the Seanchans attitude towards Aes Sedai. IF Tuon had resurfaced among Aes sedai, starting to talk about alliances and whatnot, how hard do you think it would be to convince the majority of the Seanchan that the Aes Sedai is controlling Tuon?

 

Semirhage had all outcomes covered, except the minor screw up of getting herself captured.

 

Agreed. And i notice you havn't addressed my comments about Fain at all.

 

Sending 50 darkhounds to track a man they cannot--cannot keep up with, or indeed, even hope to track through the ways--who has done nothing to endanger the Shadows interest openly for nearly a year--and therefore would not have done anything to have caused such a renewed and dramatic interest on behalf of the shadow--that seems not only beyond foolish, but absurd as well.

 

 

So you think the shadow forgets about Fain being out there? A man they know is full of all kinds of nastiness, a man they know hates the shadow almost as much as he hates Rand, a man they have failed to hunt down? The shadow would just shrug, thank him for a good game and give up, hoping he won't do anything naughty?

 

Sending a huge pach of darkhounds seems to be the best, if not the only hope they have of actually finding him. After all, that's what they are for, search & destroy, although I think their main part is to search, and if they find Fain, call in Slayer to make sure the job gets finished once and for all.

 

The possibility of her being yanked into TAR does seem mildly plausible... but then why hasn't it been done? Irrespective of whether you think the Darkhounds are after her, you cannot doubt that the Shadow wants her dead... Semirhage, despite her flippancy with Suroth, went to a fairly decent effort to kill off the royal family and leave Suroth in charge, thereby assuring Shadow a controlling interest in the Seanchan forces. In the persuit of Tuon, Semirhage disguised herself and tried to extort jewellery in order to arouse fury and let the murder of Tuon become acceptable. I mean the threat alone of Tuon in someone elses hands...

 

RJ has stated that entering a persons dream, entering TAR, and being able to interperat someones dreams are all different talents. Maybe Semirhage doesn't have the talent for entering peoples dreams. Maybe she doesn't know Tuon's dreams, and therefore can't find them. Of the surviving forsaken, the only ones with true dreaming abilities are under Moridin's thumb, and according to all evidence he's remaining aloof, but even if she did approach him, how would he or Cyndane or Moghedian know Tuon's dreams? She is no Ta'veren, to be found through ta'maral'ailen, and at that stage none of the Forsaken knew Mat was with her. Hell, maybe even the web of destiny around Mat distorts the pattern enough to make her dreams unreachable.

 

So, frankly, i don't know why it hadn't been done, only that if it were possible it would have been done. The risk of Tuon at large to the Shadow's interest is simply too great if such an easy method were avialliable.

 

As for a Seeker, its possible that Semirhage did throw one on Tuon. But Seekers on the flesh fade in hours, it works best on metal, and Tuon carries no metal with her; any on her clothes would have been abandoned when she was first taken and hidden as a servant.

 

So frankly, no i dont see the Shadow having a better method than using Darkhounds. In fact, aside from that TAR idea, it seems to be their only method, to my mind.

 

 

You manage to not see a gigantic inconsistency in your attempts to paint Tuon as the target.

 

If it is the shadow at large that wants Tuon dead, calling in Cyndane or Moghedien to play with her dreams would be no problem. Seems far more safe than unleashing this gigantic pack to run wild all over the place. Semirhage screwed up when she let Tuon get away, so handle to job to someone more competent.

 

And if it was Semirhage acting on her own, fat chance she would be allowed to borrow that particular pack.

The very size of the pack should be the first clue that it is not Tuon . There are two possible reasons to use a huge pack for hunting someone, either you want to be able to cover a Lot of ground. Apparently not the case here, since the pack sticks together. Or, you're hunting someone who might put up enough of a fight to threaten perhaps an entire normal sized pack.

 

Firstly, there is possibly a difference in between between the two moments, despite their chronology in the book. There were as much as twenty days difference between certain chapters that were one after the other, depending on whos storyline was running at the time.

 

Secondly, a run from the borderlands could theoretically be concidered a long hunt, and Masuri's expert opinion depends entirely on some half-felt feeling of impatience. We all know how trustworthy Aes Sedai opinions are on things that arn't verifiable. The whole matter of their prey elluding them, or delay in there hunt could as easily be impatience to begin the hunt. Certainly we know the Darkhounds have been kept on a short leash.

 

So, all in all good point. Doesn't settle matters for me, and i still concider Fain to be the least likely candidate and Tuon to be the most, but this does mussy up the works.

 

All major segments of COT starts on the same day. Perrin finds the tracks on the same day as Mat thinks it's been six nights since the escape from Ebou dar. Not two weeks inbetween, twenty days or whatever, the same day. So, at the very most it has been six days since Tuon left Ebou Dar. Quite useless dogs if they starts getting frustrated after only six days.

 

Face it, you don't have a single credible argument why Tuon should be the target, only your little wish that it should be so.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Semirhage can be excused for killing the Warder.  The Aes Sedai Warder bond is something completely foreign to all of the Forsaken.  None of them would have realized that the Warder was going to react that way.

[Majsju]

Semirhage can be excused for killing the Warder.  The Aes Sedai Warder bond is something completely foreign to all of the Forsaken.  None of them would have realized that the Warder was going to react that way.

 

Uhm, she killed the Warder by overstimulating his pleasue centre. Something she was aware of would kill him, she just got distracted.

 

What she did not realize was how the Aes Sedai would react once the warder died.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Maybe I am just not remembering right.  I thought the Warder died not just because Semirhage overstimulated his pleasure sensors, but because of what got tranmitted through the bond to his Aes Sedai causing adding too much to it.

[Charlz Guybon]

Though I believe that giant pack is after Fain, I do hope that Tuon encounters some Dark Hounds in AMoL. "Superstitions" my ass. I can't wait for her to be painfully introduced to reality.

[Luckers]

First of all, the 'little girl' remark refers to Tuons ability to defend herself against someone like Slayer, or even the average myrdraal. She can't channel, she is unarmed, and her fancy moves that might be very good against common blokes would not do her any good against such enemies.

 

And Semirhage is supposed to think that Tuon was spirited out of Ebou Dar, away from all the safe-checks the Seanchan have in place, by herself? You don't think that maybe, just maybe, it might occur to Semirhage that Tuon wouldn't be alone, or unprotected?

 

As for Semirhage getting control of the Seanchan, with Tuon missing, she has a great deal of control through Suroth, and if that pesky general proved to be too much of an interference, "convincing" him to change his mind would not exactly be that much of a challenge to a forsaken. And if Tuon would return, jolly, Semirhage is in a position where she can reach Tuon close to 24/7.

 

You really don't think it would concern Semirhage that the one person capable of absolutely undoing the links to power Semirhage has disapeared without a trace in the company of Aes Sedai and others? You really don't think that having that person at large would not be a deep concern to Semirhage? Please.

 

As for her being in a position to reach or influence Tuon immediately upon her return... is she? If Tuon were placed in a place of power by another who then controlled access to her, how precisely do you think Semirhage would gain access to her? Even if Tuon's disapearence were her own doing, do you not think it might have occured to Semirhage that it was in reaction to Tuon learning that Suroth is a darkfriend, or even the Anath herself was Semirhage? Do you really think that Semirhage would trust that that is not the case? And in such an event, would not Tuon surround herself with damane. Hell, even if it WAS just Aes Sedai for normal Tower manipulations, do you think it might not occur to Semirhage that Tuon would immediately surround herself with those damane anyway.

 

Semirhage has every reason to be worried about what Tuon may intend, or the intentions of those that took her. If Tuon claims a position of power, and for any reason decides to deny people access to her, then Semirhage has no access without revealing herself, and then its all null and void. She killed the royal family specifically to consolidate her power on this side of the ocean.

 

Honestly, i have no idea how you can maintain that position.

 

But rather than a touch of compulsion, or killing Tuon in her sleep, Semirhage would call in the heavy artillery? Semirhage would get permission to use the superpack of darkhounds as a "reward" for screwing up, permission from the DO who does not exactly look kindly on failure?

 

I'm sorry, how could Semirhage compel a woman she doesn't know the location of? How can she kill her in her sleep. And if she does resurface, whose to say it will be in a place where Semirhage would have easy access to her. Semirhage certainly wouldn't be in a position to guess where and when and why Tuon would resurface. Too many variables.

 

So yes, in absence of any of those impossible options you list, and in the very dire need for Tuon to be removed, she would call upon darkhounds. Its the only tool that fits the need.

 

"People who don't know her would be kept away" Do you know who Semirhage pretended to be? Oh, right, one of few people who would be granted immidiate access to Tuon. And as seen in KOD, Semirhage does not exactly seem to consider a few Aes Sedai bodyguards as that much of an obstacle.

 

And you happily ignore the Seanchans attitude towards Aes Sedai. IF Tuon had resurfaced among Aes sedai, starting to talk about alliances and whatnot, how hard do you think it would be to convince the majority of the Seanchan that the Aes Sedai is controlling Tuon?

 

Semirhage had all outcomes covered, except the minor screw up of getting herself captured.

 

I'm sorry, but that absurd, and counter-intuitive in itself... else why would Tuon have disapeared in the first place. Semirhage lost her, and was doing everything in her power to end that potential variable. I'm not saying she was in a panic, I'm saying that she was coldly removing a potential wild card.

 

As for that absurdity about Tuon reapearing amongst Aes Sedai... whoever suggested that, because it surely wasn't me. But do not think for a moment that Semirhage would not have had to have concidered the potential influence of them that took her on her return. Semirhage has no idea why she was taken, and yes, to get her away from Semirhage must have occured to her, as would have Aes Sedai desiring control, and any of a number of other things that would result in Tuon returning to power wary.

 

And I think you forget who Semirhage is pretending to be. Anath... she's a non-channeler you see. She doesn't even have the authority to requisition a raken, if I understand the interplay after she is captured. So don't you think she might be worried about how to get close to Tuon if she re-established herself in Amadecia or Tenchico? Don't you think a few questions might be asked if Anath mysteriously turned up in those places?

 

At the very least Tuon's return at that stage would mean Suroth's death--as it did. Semirhage needed Tuon dead for her own plans to go forward. Don't think it was fear, I'm not even sure Semirhage is capable of such. It was planning, just as it was planning to kill of the rest of the Royal Family. Semirhage was creating power for herself, and Tuon stood in the way of that. Her return, at that stage, would have been largely detrimental to those plans, however she may posture around Suroth, and any attempt to control Tuon would have been dificult if damane were about, which Semirhage would have needed to concider as a very real possibility.

 

No, it's too random to leave things to chance by not persuing Tuon--as again Semirhage herself shows. I'm sorry.

 

So you think the shadow forgets about Fain being out there? A man they know is full of all kinds of nastiness, a man they know hates the shadow almost as much as he hates Rand, a man they have failed to hunt down? The shadow would just shrug, thank him for a good game and give up, hoping he won't do anything naughty?

 

Not in the sense you mean, but yes, i do think their urgency will have waned. Fain has never been a direct threat to the Shadow, and whilst certainly they want him dead--indeed, quite badly--enough time has passed that such an action as sending a pack of darkhounds after him is insanely random, not to mention absurd since they would be so completely ineffective in being able to track him.

 

Sending a huge pach of darkhounds seems to be the best, if not the only hope they have of actually finding him. After all, that's what they are for, search & destroy, although I think their main part is to search, and if they find Fain, call in Slayer to make sure the job gets finished once and for all.

 

Darkhounds would be the most pointlessly ineffective methods of traking a creature like Fain, unless you think they can work the ways, and you have no basis for suggesting they can 'call' anyone. Much less that Slayer could react before Fain was gone again.

 

You manage to not see a gigantic inconsistency in your attempts to paint Tuon as the target.

 

If it is the shadow at large that wants Tuon dead, calling in Cyndane or Moghedien to play with her dreams would be no problem. Seems far more safe than unleashing this gigantic pack to run wild all over the place. Semirhage screwed up when she let Tuon get away, so handle to job to someone more competent.

 

I believe i covered this completely. I refer you to my last post.

 

"Of the surviving forsaken, the only ones with true dreaming abilities are under Moridin's thumb, and according to all evidence he's remaining aloof, but even if she did approach him, how would he or Cyndane or Moghedian know Tuon's dreams? She is no Ta'veren, to be found through ta'maral'ailen, and at that stage none of the Forsaken knew Mat was with her. Hell, maybe even the web of destiny around Mat distorts the pattern enough to make her dreams unreachable.

 

So, frankly, i don't know why it hadn't been done, only that if it were possible it would have been done. The risk of Tuon at large to the Shadow's interest is simply too great if such an easy method were avialliable."

 

And if it was Semirhage acting on her own, fat chance she would be allowed to borrow that particular pack.

The very size of the pack should be the first clue that it is not Tuon . There are two possible reasons to use a huge pack for hunting someone, either you want to be able to cover a Lot of ground. Apparently not the case here, since the pack sticks together. Or, you're hunting someone who might put up enough of a fight to threaten perhaps an entire normal sized pack.

 

And in what way does that indicate its not Tuon? Tuon has with her at least three Aes Sedai, and Semirhage must have concluded there were non channelers involved for them to get past the damane at the gate... so three Aes Sedai, and possibly soldiers, or armed men of some form.

 

So... um, how is it exactly that you think that Semirhage wouldn't concider that grouping capable of taking out a normal sized pack?

 

Next, why wouldn't Semirhage have access to Darkhounds? She bears the Chosen Mark, and this was before the tightening of security on ordering about shadowspawn.... indeed, it seems like that a Chosen MUST have commanded them, since more than ten darkhounds usually turn on each other. Why is it you think that it is so unlikely that that is Semirhage? We have no indication she was restricted by the shadow in requisitioning shadowspawn.

 

Beyond that, why do you think Moridin would not have granted her permission anyway. Getting rid of Tuon is of vital importance to the shadow, concidering the size of the forces she controls. Five packs of Darkhounds seem like an unimportant thing for Moridin to cross Semirhage on. Is it your theory about the dreams? Well, i covered that... if it were possible, irrespective of the importance of Tuon, Tuon would be dead. Simple. In the world at large she presents too large of a variable for them not to use such an easy method to kill her... i mean they've proved their willing to act to retain control of Seanchan forces, and now you think they what... got bored with it? Went of to play with a man who hasn't impinged upon their interests for nearly a year?

 

As for why they can't do it, i covered those options too.

 

All major segments of COT starts on the same day. Perrin finds the tracks on the same day as Mat thinks it's been six nights since the escape from Ebou dar. Not two weeks inbetween, twenty days or whatever, the same day. So, at the very most it has been six days since Tuon left Ebou Dar. Quite useless dogs if they starts getting frustrated after only six days.

 

I'm sorry, where is your evidence for this?

 

Face it, you don't have a single credible argument why Tuon should be the target, only your little wish that it should be so.

 

Contemptable.

[Majsju]

All major segments of COT starts on the same day. Perrin finds the tracks on the same day as Mat thinks it's been six nights since the escape from Ebou dar. Not two weeks inbetween, twenty days or whatever, the same day. So, at the very most it has been six days since Tuon left Ebou Dar. Quite useless dogs if they starts getting frustrated after only six days.

 

 

I'm sorry, where is your evidence for this?

 

 

Perhaps from the guy who actually wrote the book...

 

I like trying new things with each book, too, especially tricks with time. Some of those work out better than others. The notion of starting each major segment of Crossroads of Twilight on the same day seemed a terrific idea, but by the time I realized that it would have been better to do it another way, I was too deeply into the book, with not enough time to rewrite the entire book.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=96

 

 

[Luckers]

Perhaps or certainly... the quote seems to suggest the latter, but you broke my sarcasm detector so i'm having issues reading it that way.

[Majsju]

I can hardly be sarcastic when quoting RJs own words, can I...

 

And RJ is very rarely sarcastic unless someone asks something really foolish.

[Digbe]

Purely Speculation:  Perhaps Shadar Haran can make DH's somehow.

[Davram]

OO I have one. What if Slayer is the Shadow's equivelant of a Wolfbrother, I mean look at the prophecy:

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

The Time of Change has come.

 

:P

[Davram]

What no comment?

[Davram]

COmon ppl some1 comment on the dark prophecy thing mhm