I finished the series! Here are some thoughts.

[chiamac]

So I finished the series last week. I don't have a blog or podcast so this will kind of be my parting thoughts before I move on to a few other books and tbd series. I don't really think I'll go too deep here. It's also a old series at this point so although I'm not going to try and spoil anything, but at the same time to me the journey and reading the story is more important than what happens. 

I ended up reading New Spring last. Not that this is wrong, but I really think this should be read earlier. It could fit in anywhere in the "slog" after book 4 or 5 or so (my memory is fuzzy of any specifics), and it would do well reading in the position it was published. At least read it before getting to the B. Sanderson books. I say this because it's a self contained story that doesn't really have anything epic happen. Which is fine, but I'd rather end the whole series on a first read after the last battle and Rand trotting away, than on New Spring. It wouldn't make sense reading first though, but I don't think it's worth saving. It also doesn't (to me) give anything away or any insight that we didn't already have. 

I have a new view on the Horn, and what Ta'veren are. 

It was interesting to read the interaction between Mat and the heroes of the horn. They said he wasn't a part of the heroes, and although these books generally aren't that deep, it is an interesting reason why. He needed to be attached to the horn, Perrin needed to lead the wolves, and Rand needed to be the Dragon. They are as attached to the horn as the heroes in the pattern. I also think ta'veren are related to this as well, and it kind of answers my question as far as why no one else was ta'veren when labeling them as such would make sense given their accelerated storyline. 

To me Callandor makes sense. It didn't for a while, but then, of all places, I heard R. Jordan talk about how he approached myths and legends and what if explicit instructions or details of events turn into these stories. Way back when, they knew how to resolve the issue, I'd even argue that as this has happened over and over the same conclusion was found over and over, but either way they had a plan. They just didn't get along well enough to accomplish the plan, and we even saw some of that in our story. So yeah, that was the plan all along, but no one had a chance to do it earlier. 

Rand lighting his pipe makes sense now. He was doing somethings outside of the powers and channeling in the last books, but he also was doing it earlier on. He urged Bella on, and at that time it's not described how he did it, where as Moraine using the power was described as such (if I recall correctly) even earlier on. So to some extent Rand had a pull on the pattern, and he only realized how to use that later on. I'd then have to assume he got burnt out with the power, or with the body switch, but I'm fine with that and I'm fine with the ending. 

 

I can't believe I'm saying this, because I would have cut this character out after book 2, but I liked what Padan Fain ended up doing in the last battle. I'll mention B. Sanderson doing a 4th book later, but I thought what he was doing and how the mist was appearing again was neat. It would have been nice to read more of a setup, and maybe throughout the books take that arc of him rather than the political stuff he was doing.  

Then finally, B. Sanderson takes a little bit to get into the characters and I think the last books are great. I do wish in a way he and they did a 4th book and took the time to explain or setup a little more. But, and he has said this in interviews, it's long already and where do you draw the line. 

Anyway I can't wait to re-read this again in a few years, I'm getting the leatherbound series and that will be fun to collect. I also can't wait to give more time to the slop books and get into all those small details from the world - now that I know how the story ends and how events unfold. So to any readers on the fence, if they got this far with this post, stick with it, and at least I felt it was rewarding. 

Now off onto the next reading adventures! 

[Tanchico or Bust]

Hi Chiamac! 
I’m super new to Dragonmount, so I looked for a recently-posted topic, and here we are!

 

Obviously, so happy that you discovered this series, etc. and some of your observations stood out to me, here are some thoughts in response: 

 

(please assume good faith/intentions coming from me! I want vibrant debate, but also friends on this forum)

 

- I do (lovingly!) take issue with your comment “and although these books generally aren’t that deep…). Nuh-uh. They ARE generally that deep!

 

I promise you, I’m doing my 4th reading right now, and I am still finding new things, making new connections - things that happen or are mentioned in the earlier books, which you finally realize are foreshadowing/“setting the stage” after several more reads. It would be impossible to connect these things if you didn’t do re-reads. Unless you are a genius, imho. I won’t even go into the incredible character development or multiple Byzantine plots! The. Books.  Are. Deep. 😊

 

the more you put in, the more you get out of this series. 
 

- Ta’veren - ah. I know what you mean (I think) in that it seems EVERY one of the main characters who came out of the 2R could/should be Ta’veren. I’ve lamented it myself- why not Egwene or Nyaeve?? 
WHY NOT? 🧐

 

i don’t have the answer, just a theory that being Ta’veren is SO special, SO rare, that it normally wouldn’t apply to more than one in a generation. (Everyone who knows what it is comments repeatedly how crazy it is that there were three, and from the same village) That is what marks its exclusive status.

 

(There is not a lot of talk about other historical Ta’veren, other than Artur Paendrag  and Lews Therin. I mean, there are names mentioned, but we don’t learn much about them.)
 

I also like to think that E and N actually didn’t need the pull of being Ta’veren to do what they wanted/had to do. They were 100% motivated ALL the time to keep going, and oh, they did. The boys M and P, however… their narratives are both filled with all their doubts, denial, hesitation, lack of motivation, frank efforts to sabotage the Pattern, and sullen reluctance to get going. Ta’veren was necessary to snap them into place whether they liked it or not. Poor Rand… he just accepted it in book 3 and sadly went on from there. (Although, happily, later he learns how to use it to his advantage…) 
 

Mat and the horn… I realized that he is acknowledged/referred to as “Horn-blower”, but you see later that, actually, he loses that status in Rhuidian, when he technically dies and therefore The Horn is “reset” so to speak. No one around him (and definitely not he) realizes that for a while. So Mat shifts from horn-blower into his dual role as “the Gambler” and “the General”, which are intimately connected/complementary as it turns out. 
 

ok, I’m typed out here for tonight but I really hope to hear back from you! 😄 
 

Tai’shar Dragonmount

 

(hope I spelled everything correctly, otherwise, embarrassing)

 

 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I think also for the ta'veren is that they pull and enmesh each other. If everyone in the party from the Two Rivers had been a ta'veren they would have been locked into the deep gravity well that is the Dragon. 

 

You could look at the doubts and willfulness and denial of responsibility (Mat) or the overcommitment to responsibility (Perrin) not being the cause of the ta'veren status but being necessary to survive being a ta'veren (especially around Rand) and still get the stuff that needed to be done done. Like if Perrin had not been so dead set on killing himself for his family, he wouldn't have been there to accidentally cause a revolution in the Two Rivers which would have huge impact later on when they march to the Fields of Merrilor. Just like the Band would never have been formed if Mat wasn't trying to run away. If they had not resisted being ta'veren and the pull of Rand, none of that would have happened. 

 

Unless of course the ta'veren works on a deeper level and everything was fated to happen exactly like that, but then there would be no point discussing it at all then.

 

Also it means that Nynaeve and Egwene achieved what they did through their own grit and determination without the help of the Pattern smoothing their way. 

[chiamac]

9 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I think also for the ta'veren is that they pull and enmesh each other. If everyone in the party from the Two Rivers had been a ta'veren they would have been locked into the deep gravity well that is the Dragon. 

 

You could look at the doubts and willfulness and denial of responsibility (Mat) or the overcommitment to responsibility (Perrin) not being the cause of the ta'veren status but being necessary to survive being a ta'veren (especially around Rand) and still get the stuff that needed to be done done. Like if Perrin had not been so dead set on killing himself for his family, he wouldn't have been there to accidentally cause a revolution in the Two Rivers which would have huge impact later on when they march to the Fields of Merrilor. Just like the Band would never have been formed if Mat wasn't trying to run away. If they had not resisted being ta'veren and the pull of Rand, none of that would have happened. 

 

Unless of course the ta'veren works on a deeper level and everything was fated to happen exactly like that, but then there would be no point discussing it at all then.

 

Also it means that Nynaeve and Egwene achieved what they did through their own grit and determination without the help of the Pattern smoothing their way. 

Up until the end I always thought the books and story showed more predetermination than personal choice. So more on the end of whatever religious Christian view is about the elect or something, we are already ordained or predetermined to live our lives per Gods will for us, that we don't have choices, and any choices we "do have" are in His plan... Now I personally don't buy that as far as my religious beliefs, but I thought for a while this is what RJ was going for in the series. The Wheel Wills, and it will Will... 

Then I came to realize, and again my belief here, that the pattern repeats and it is indeed a pattern. In Rands school when the professor or old guy said that "the bore must be closed because at that part of the pattern it will be closed" or something. Meaning that it will happen here, or happen in the future, but it will happen. 

Later comments about Mat joining the Heros. They turned him down without reason. If the other guy can earn that so could Mat, he had done as much and more, but it wasn't "his" place. He is meant to be the horn blower, not a hero. Perrin too, someone needed to lead the wolves, and he came along to meet that need. It was all the pattern. 

Sure they all had a choice and maybe that was explored, I just remember Rands choice to save the world rather than destroy it. But, they were all needed. If anything the girls along with them were pulled in. But, from the way it seems this type of "last battle" repeats and is lost into legend and lore and then that mistake or something similar is done to restart this process. There was a plan, the plan worked (or would have worked), and then overtime it's forgotten.