Do you ever think of re-writing The Wheel of Time ? What are some of the things you would change ? (spoilers)

[Loose Theremin]

I know I do ! One of the changes I would make is to Elaida. Robert Jordan set her up as the character we all love to hate with her pride, arrogance and her unfailing ability to make a tremendous hash out of everything. Naturally for me as a contrarian I want to rehabilitate her. So I would combine her with ................... drum-roll......................Cadsuane ! No wait, listen to me ! Instead of being a combination of the two insufferable bitches from hell I would make something new and better from the amalgamation.

 

At Camelyn when she meets Rand instead of dreaming of sticking him in a dungeon and putting him to the question she notices that he resembles Tigraine and is further alerted by the disparity between where he says he comes from and his appearance.

 

Moiraine whisks Rand away. Elaida goes to the Tower where she is well thought of. She starts to dig around for information and in speaking to Egwene and Nynaeve she realises that something is up with Emond's Field. She tries to get information out of Nynaeve, Egwene, Min and Siuan but they aren't talking. So Elaida Marple starts to put two and two together ! When Moiraine is taken out by Lanfear and Rand kills Gaebril in Camelyn enough is enough ! Elaida deposes Siuan and interrogates her. In doing so she realises that she misinterpreted her foretelling and had the wrong Royal line. Rand is the key not Elayne. So Elaida steps up and starts to help Rand. Not by treating him like a dimwitted boy and regularly slapping his face very hard but by giving him advice and material aid and so on.

 

One of the deficiencies to me with Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time is that the White Tower doesn't get enough attention. The politics, the scheming and so on.

 

 

Edited September 15 by Loose Theremin
Revision alteration deletion addition.

[chiamac]

I guess nothing really specific, just some thoughts as I'm turning the corner into the Sanderson books. 

 

I like the Perrin arc in the early books, and the Wolf Dream and stuff is fun. We're in this magical world, dreaming is different, and there are different ways to access those dreams. It's also a fun take on wolves. However, after the first few books I'm not sure how much it adds, and the whole character of Perrin could be re-written to remove the wolves and I don't think much would be lost. 

 

I never really liked the Padan Fain story arc and never thought he really added anything. I have to wonder if he was kind of an in-between before the idea of the forsaken really took off, or what. Mat can have the cursed knife, and then it can stay in the white tower - or later turned into a different type of a magical weapon when the Aes Sedai go visit that room and notice it. 

In hindsight, we don't need the Green Man or a mythical place that appears when you need it most. I can't remember much else being magical like that later in the books. It is fun, and it fits in with the world of the first few books but we really don't need it. That can be written as some town or magical holdout in the Blight, kind of the inverse of Shadar Logoth.

Not sure we need as much about the Whitecloaks as we get. 

 

No need for those waystones or whatever was in the first book. It was never revisited as far as I can remember. 

 

I'd do the ways a waygates a little differently. I don't need two types of traveling, plus the ways, plus the waystones... 

The dark ones seals could be more or less built in around his prison rather than these quest items that are all over the place. 

 

I wouldn't have Loial be a main character, or the Ogier be included as much. They can still be in the world, the Steadings can still be a thing, but more like the Circus rather than main characters. 

 

In a way I'd have the story more focused on Rand meeting all these different legends and prophecies about the Dragon Reborn. Him, Mat, and Perrin along with an one or two Aes Sedai can have the adventures that the girls did. 

 

Then lastly on my mind or now, and maybe I glossed over this in the audio books. I get why Caemlyn and Andor are important, but we spend all this time on what seems like a side story. I'd treat them more or less like the other city states, or maybe have them associated with a prophecy that Rand can fulfill (I can't remember if there was one, but it wasn't a spinning sword that's not a sword type thing). 
 

Whatever the crystal jewelry piece that held one of the forsakens souls or whatever it was. That seemed odd when reading it, also seems out of place, and I'd get rid of it or maybe include it earlier and more. 

Then I forgot. We have all kinds of different Dark One beasts and creatures, maybe we don't need as many. 

 

 

RJ was a discovery writer, and seemed to wander off the main plot a lot. That's fine, it has it's moments, and it's entertaining. But, the first few books are different than his middle books, are different than 7-9 and then Sanderson picks things back up as best he can. So the above is to get more contentunity and consistency throughout the series. 

 

 

[edit] since I forgot there was a TV show... For TV I'd change the above and then limit the main characters and maybe even limit their scope. I wouldn't try to do to much at once, that works in a book, but not on the screen. I'd also maybe just do something like a Northern Exposure that focuses on the Two Rivers area and run with that for a while. 

 

Edited September 15 by chiamac

[WoTwasThat]

One of these days I will feed the entire series into AI and play around with some changes. Primarily:

1. Elayne doesn’t go to Ebou Dar but instead returns with Matt to Caemlyn, dramatically shortening both the Bowl of the Winds and Andoran/Cairhien Succession storylines.

2. Shaido are eliminated after Dumai’s Wells, and the Faile captivity story is cut.

3. Salidar squabbling is basically eliminated past Crown of Swords.

4. Crossroads of Twilight is excised completely - now fill in any necessary gaps.

 

I would also do some analysis, like: how many instances throughout the series of Nynaeve pulling her braid? Crossing arms beneath breasts? Sniffs? Smoothing of skirts? The “X is better than Y with girls” joke?

[Bodewhin]

I'd never rewrite WOT. I couldn't rewrite WOT, it wouldn't be WOT anymore. 

 

I would write my own story. 

 

I think that's something that a lot of people should do, honestly. If a reader is that dissatisfied with a book they should write their own. I don't say that in a belittling or sarcastic way, I truly believe in the Devil's Advocate approach when it comes to writing. Taking grains of worlds and stories and remixing them is at the heart of fantasy writing. And instead of reimagining someone else's story, go imagine your own. 

[chiamac]

15 hours ago, Bodewhin said:

I think that's something that a lot of people should do, honestly. If a reader is that dissatisfied with a book they should write their own. I don't say that in a belittling or sarcastic way, I truly believe in the Devil's Advocate approach when it comes to writing. Taking grains of worlds and stories and remixing them is at the heart of fantasy writing. And instead of reimagining someone else's story, go imagine your own. 

 

Just speaking for me, I'm not "dissatisfied", it is what it is and it's been a pretty neat and wonderful time going through the audio books. 

What I am though is realizing that the world isn't as tight as it could be, and seems to change a lot from a really fantasy mystical type place to more of a regular, maybe 1700's, type world with a magic system and items. So it'd be nice to go back and make it a little more consistent and polished. 

It's still a great series, and I'd still recommend it. 

[Bodewhin]

3 hours ago, chiamac said:

 

Just speaking for me, I'm not "dissatisfied", it is what it is and it's been a pretty neat and wonderful time going through the audio books. 

What I am though is realizing that the world isn't as tight as it could be, and seems to change a lot from a really fantasy mystical type place to more of a regular, maybe 1700's, type world with a magic system and items. So it'd be nice to go back and make it a little more consistent and polished. 

It's still a great series, and I'd still recommend it. 

I much prefer quasi-medieval and renaissance fantasy settings over the 1700s. So I don't think WOT would have appealed to me as much had the setting been defined in that manner. I enjoy the mishmash blend of Celtic myths and other mythologies that RJ used in his world building.

 

A lot of the WOT reminds me of a RPG, and I think the loose setting appeals to me for that reason. There's something living and breathing about how it is presented and unfolds. The world is unpredictable but also familiar. 

 

I get that it's not everyone's cup of tea. There's things I don't love in the books, but again I wouldn't choose to rewrite it. It's not my story. If we're taking about making an adaption of the WOT then that's different, of course I would make changes and tweak things, that's in the nature of adapting. 

 

That's great you still enjoy the books!

[Andra]

On 9/18/2025 at 5:24 PM, Bodewhin said:

I'd never rewrite WOT. I couldn't rewrite WOT, it wouldn't be WOT anymore. 

 

I would write my own story. 

 

I think that's something that a lot of people should do, honestly. If a reader is that dissatisfied with a book they should write their own. I don't say that in a belittling or sarcastic way, I truly believe in the Devil's Advocate approach when it comes to writing. Taking grains of worlds and stories and remixing them is at the heart of fantasy writing. And instead of reimagining someone else's story, go imagine your own. 

This.

 

This hits the nail on the head of the biggest criticism of the show.  Or many other poor adaptations.

Don't take a loved story and change it just because you can.  Write your own.

[Loose Theremin]

On 9/19/2025 at 9:24 AM, Bodewhin said:

I'd never rewrite WOT. I couldn't rewrite WOT, it wouldn't be WOT anymore. 

 

I would write my own story. 

 

I think that's something that a lot of people should do, honestly. If a reader is that dissatisfied with a book they should write their own. I don't say that in a belittling or sarcastic way, I truly believe in the Devil's Advocate approach when it comes to writing. Taking grains of worlds and stories and remixing them is at the heart of fantasy writing. And instead of reimagining someone else's story, go imagine your own. 

 

Yes I've heard this line from George R R Martin too. Don't rewrite my Song of Ice and Fire write your own books instead ! Well yes nearly everyone can write but not many people can write at that level. I have had a go at writing but I realized that although I can string a sentence together pretty well I am not a creative writer when it comes to ideas for plots, settings and characters. And I'm not much good at the descriptive stuff either.

 

And I wasn't serious about actually rewriting the whole of  The Wheel of Time because that would be a massive undertaking. But it's fun to talk about changing things up in a hypothetical sense. It's a talking point for opening up discussion isn't it. Which is what this place is for I would have thought.

[WoTwasThat]

On 9/18/2025 at 6:24 PM, Bodewhin said:

I'd never rewrite WOT. I couldn't rewrite WOT, it wouldn't be WOT anymore.

Was it still WOT when Brandon Sanderson stepped in to finish the series, after Robert Jordon died (when Robert Jordon could have finished the series himself if he hadn’t wasted his final years on Path of Daggers, Winter’s Heart, Crossroads of Boredom, and Knife of Dreams, but I digress)?

 

The point I’m making is we already got a fan fiction ending to WOT, so criticizing fans for wanting to make other tweaks rings a bit… hollow. 

Edited September 21 by WoTwasThat

[Bodewhin]

2 hours ago, WoTwasThat said:

Was it still WOT when Brandon Sanderson stepped in to finish the series, after Robert Jordon died (when Robert Jordon could have finished the series himself if he hadn’t wasted his final years on Path of Daggers, Winter’s Heart, and Knife of Dreams, but I digress)?

 

The point I’m making is we already got a fan fiction ending to WOT, so criticizing fans for wanting to make other tweaks rings a bit… hollow. 

Sanderson was selected by RJ's widow to finish the series (because that was the author's wishes). Sanderson did not rewrite the WOT from book one. Very different scenario. 

 

As I said in my og post, my statement was not from a critical standpoint. I personally would not rewrite it. That's my opinion. You don't have to like it or agree with it. 

 

I think the notion that RJ 'wasted' the remaining years of life writing the books in his series is a lot more insulting than expressing my personal opinion and saying, I wouldn't want to rewrite WOT and firmly believe in people using their creative energy to write stories themselves. 

Edited September 21 by Bodewhin
missing word

[Asthereal]

You really don't want me to rewrite WoT because my style is more or less the opposite to Jordan's. My pacing is very fast, I don't describe much at all and I tend to have just one or two viewpoint characters. So my WoT would likely end up as a trilogy, with everything from Rand's PoV, probably in first person narrative. That does not sound like the Wheel of Time at all. 😛 

[Loose Theremin]

On 9/22/2025 at 1:52 AM, Bodewhin said:

Sanderson was selected by RJ's widow to finish the series (because that was the author's wishes). Sanderson did not rewrite the WOT from book one. Very different scenario. 

 

As I said in my og post, my statement was not from a critical standpoint. I personally would not rewrite it. That's my opinion. You don't have to like it or agree with it. 

 

I think the notion that RJ 'wasted' the remaining years of life writing the books in his series is a lot more insulting than expressing my personal opinion and saying, I wouldn't want to rewrite WOT and firmly believe in people using their creative energy to write stories themselves. 

 

My take on this is that Robert Jordan and his publishers sold out for the money by larding the books with filler. More words equals more books equals more money. It's as simple as that. George R R Martin and his publishers did the same thing with A Song of Ice and Fire. A Feast for Crows was Martin's Crossroads of Twilight.

 

So no Robert Jordan didn't "waste" the remaining years of his life. On the contrary he was busily cashing in. But he did let his fans down, badly. Both by selling them the inferior later books and by depriving them of his ending to the series.

 

Still at least Brandon Sanderson came in to finish the series which from the look of it is more than the ASOIAF fans are going to get.

[Asthereal]

On 9/23/2025 at 2:26 AM, Loose Theremin said:

 

My take on this is that Robert Jordan and his publishers sold out for the money by larding the books with filler. More words equals more books equals more money. It's as simple as that. George R R Martin and his publishers did the same thing with A Song of Ice and Fire. A Feast for Crows was Martin's Crossroads of Twilight.

 

So no Robert Jordan didn't "waste" the remaining years of his life. On the contrary he was busily cashing in. But he did let his fans down, badly. Both by selling them the inferior later books and by depriving them of his ending to the series.

 

Still at least Brandon Sanderson came in to finish the series which from the look of it is more than the ASOIAF fans are going to get.

 

For someone who dislikes so much about WoT, you do post a lot on the fan forum.

If I don't like a thing, I typically shrug and move on to better things. Feels like a healthier approach.

[chiamac]

On 9/22/2025 at 7:26 PM, Loose Theremin said:

 

My take on this is that Robert Jordan and his publishers sold out for the money by larding the books with filler. More words equals more books equals more money. It's as simple as that. George R R Martin and his publishers did the same thing with A Song of Ice and Fire. A Feast for Crows was Martin's Crossroads of Twilight.

 

So no Robert Jordan didn't "waste" the remaining years of his life. On the contrary he was busily cashing in. But he did let his fans down, badly. Both by selling them the inferior later books and by depriving them of his ending to the series.

 

Still at least Brandon Sanderson came in to finish the series which from the look of it is more than the ASOIAF fans are going to get.

 

Oh I don't know. 

 

He was busy trying to give us a complete world, and exploring that world within the series. It may get long, but we eventually learn about every people and faction, and most of their motivations. Doing it this way meant that there wasn't as much of a need for any companion books or long appendices. We get to read about all of it in time with the characters, and there is something to that. 

 

But, if we want to go and label anything inferior. I think the first few books are more out of place and should be updated, and I'd mostly leave the middle and later ones alone. But that's just me.  

[Loose Theremin]

3 hours ago, Asthereal said:

 

For someone who dislikes so much about WoT, you do post a lot on the fan forum.

If I don't like a thing, I typically shrug and move on to better things. Feels like a healthier approach.

 

Actually I am a big fan of Wheel of Time. I prefer it to Lord of the Rings. But WoT though great is flawed. And I don't think there is anything wrong in talking about those flaws, in fact I think it is healthy. So long as that is not all a person talks about.

 

People who only want to hear things that they agree with are doing themselves and others a disservice I believe. It can lead to a narrow mindedness and a tendency towards gatekeeping among other undesirable things.

Edited September 24 by Loose Theremin
Revision

[Loose Theremin]

43 minutes ago, chiamac said:

 

Oh I don't know. 

 

He was busy trying to give us a complete world, and exploring that world within the series. It may get long, but we eventually learn about every people and faction, and most of their motivations. Doing it this way meant that there wasn't as much of a need for any companion books or long appendices. We get to read about all of it in time with the characters, and there is something to that. 

 

But, if we want to go and label anything inferior. I think the first few books are more out of place and should be updated, and I'd mostly leave the middle and later ones alone. But that's just me.  

 

Really ? You would leave Crossroads of Twilight alone ? And you think it was a better book than The Eye of the World ?

[WoTwasThat]

On 9/22/2025 at 7:26 PM, Loose Theremin said:

My take on this is that Robert Jordan and his publishers sold out for the money by larding the books with filler. More words equals more books equals more money. It's as simple as that. George R R Martin and his publishers did the same thing with A Song of Ice and Fire. A Feast for Crows was Martin's Crossroads of Twilight.

 

So no Robert Jordan didn't "waste" the remaining years of his life. On the contrary he was busily cashing in. But he did let his fans down, badly. Both by selling them the inferior later books and by depriving them of his ending to the series.

 

Still at least Brandon Sanderson came in to finish the series which from the look of it is more than the ASOIAF fans are going to get.

Nah dog. First, GRRM’s latest book is light years superior to Crossroads. Second, I highly doubt RJ was cashing in with filler. I think it’s much more likely he got trapped in the weeds of his own writing and kinda went crazy in his twilight years. It’s sad for him and sad that it tarnished an otherwise excellent concept and series. A series that could have stood on par with LOTR if he’d had an editor - his wife, there’s your problem - who’d said when Path of Daggers landed “what the eff are you doing, Jim?”

[Loose Theremin]

1 hour ago, WoTwasThat said:

Nah dog. First, GRRM’s latest book is light years superior to Crossroads. Second, I highly doubt RJ was cashing in with filler. I think it’s much more likely he got trapped in the weeds of his own writing and kinda went crazy in his twilight years. It’s sad for him and sad that it tarnished an otherwise excellent concept and series. A series that could have stood on par with LOTR if he’d had an editor - his wife, there’s your problem - who’d said when Path of Daggers landed “what the eff are you doing, Jim?”

 

But I didn't compare Crossroads of Twilight to Dance with Dragons. I compared it to A Feast for Crows. In both of those books hardly anything happens. By the way Dance with Dragons may have more happening in it than Feast for Crows but it is an atrociously written book. I find it hard to believe that the person who wrote Game of Thrones also wrote Dance with Dragons. The first is a master work and the second is strictly amateur hour. Maybe it was ghost written by some hack and GRRM just put his name to it.

 

As for thinking that Robert Jordan got lost in the weeds and then lost his mind. Well that sounds far fetched to me. Do you have any evidence that is what happened or is it just speculation ? The far simpler and more likely explanation is that Robert Jordan sold out for the money. After all writing was his job and the purpose of having a job is to make money. It's not much of a leap to put two and two together.

Edited September 25 by Loose Theremin

[Asthereal]

On 9/24/2025 at 3:22 PM, Loose Theremin said:

Actually I am a big fan of Wheel of Time. I prefer it to Lord of the Rings. But WoT though great is flawed. And I don't think there is anything wrong in talking about those flaws, in fact I think it is healthy. So long as that is not all a person talks about.

 

Agreed, though to me it felt a bit like that was what you were doing. 😉 

 

Regarding entertainment I think it's typically healthier to avoid things you don't like, simply because you'd be spending time not being entertained when you could have been. Discussing flaws in WoT is of course what we do here, but I was starting to feel like you weren't all that impressed with the series, hence my remark. 

[chiamac]

On 9/24/2025 at 9:04 AM, Loose Theremin said:

 

Really ? You would leave Crossroads of Twilight alone ? And you think it was a better book than The Eye of the World ?

 

Actually yes. I do. 

 

The later books, after 4 or so, fit in better with the rest of the books. Any magical items from the first two books seem more shoehorned in later than something that would happen organically. So yes, I would go back and tame down the magic and mysticalness in the first 2 or 3 books and make it a consistent story. 

Edited September 29 by chiamac