"Dragonmount" prologue PARADOX!!! (Books 1-7 SPOILERS)

[Ogier Jr.]

Hi, you can call me Ogier Jr.,  this is my first post on this forum!!! What I would like to know is: has the hypothesis that Elan Morin BALEFIRED Lews Therin at the time of his suicide been COMPLETELY DISMISSED???

 

I know it's been said that LTT didn't balefired himself but I haven't found any statement that Ishy didn't do it... my theory is that the prologue is a TIME LOOP, a result of the Pattern being unraveled by using balefire on the Dragon (which is one with the land, leading to the beginning of the Breaking of the World)...

 

This would explain Lews Therin's memory loss - the effect of the balefire, NOT the taint - and Elan Morin's freedom - he WAS imprisoned along with the other Forsaken but the use of balefire on the Dragon and its effect on the Pattern caused one of the seals to crack (YES, the one found in the Eye of the World would have been broken since then) and allowed his presence in Lews Therin's palace believing he had never been contained!!!

 

There is another consequence (involving the people killed by the Kinslayer, INCLUDING ILYENA, HER SONS AND DAUGHTERS) if this theory is viable, so I ask: IS IT VIABLE???

[WillRNDad]

I don't think Balefire was used here... it is an excellent theory, but what I think LTT did was similar to what Rand did on top of Dragonmount. He drew as much of the Power as he could, and then turned it on himself. If he had balefired himself, the Dark One would have won, because the Pattern would have unraveled on itself. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Had Lews Therin balefired himself his soul would have been ripped from the Pattern and Rand could not have been born, if I understand the lore correctly. 

 

On a non-canon point, it would an interesting idea, death by self balefire. As this would remove you from the pattern in the past... Meaning you would not have balefired yourself. Would this create a temporal paradox like killing your own grandparents in the past? Or in the case cited, would LTT and his soul be removed from the Pattern and Ilyena and the others be restored to life? Could he have undone the attack on Shayol Ghul? I guess undoing something like that would destroy the Pattern quicker than destroying whole cities as the Age Lace is woven around such important events. 

 

To be fair, I think Jordan kept his magic system soft to avoid such paradoxes. I feel Sanderson would be the kind of author to explore the implications this would cause in a hard magic system, like he did with Gateways in his books. 

[Ogier Jr.]

36 minutes ago, WillRNDad said:

I don't think Balefire was used here... it is an excellent theory, but what I think LTT did was similar to what Rand did on top of Dragonmount. He drew as much of the Power as he could, and then turned it on himself. If he had balefired himself, the Dark One would have won, because the Pattern would have unraveled on itself. 

Yes, that's the point, I believe he drew as much of the Power he could, turned it on himself BUT ALSO was balefired by Ishy!!! I believe the only reason the entire Pattern hasn't unraveled is because the real battle against the Dark One is a battle of Will, a matter of choices, as seen in "Veins of Gold" and AMoL...

 

And I believe the paradox in "Dragonmount" exists because "the Dragon is one with the land" and "the land" cannot simply be balefired...

 

Thanks for the reply!!!

[Ogier Jr.]

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Had Lews Therin balefired himself his soul would have been ripped from the Pattern and Rand could not have been born, if I understand the lore correctly. 

 

On a non-canon point, it would an interesting idea, death by self balefire. As this would remove you from the pattern in the past... Meaning you would not have balefired yourself. Would this create a temporal paradox like killing your own grandparents in the past? Or in the case cited, would LTT and his soul be removed from the Pattern and Ilyena and the others be restored to life? Could he have undone the attack on Shayol Ghul? I guess undoing something like that would destroy the Pattern quicker than destroying whole cities as the Age Lace is woven around such important events. 

 

To be fair, I think Jordan kept his magic system soft to avoid such paradoxes. I feel Sanderson would be the kind of author to explore the implications this would cause in a hard magic system, like he did with Gateways in his books. 

Acordind to Robert Jordan balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul, it simply makes impossible to the Dark One to take someone's soul; in fact if Ishamael balefired Lews Therin he ensured that the Dark One WOULD NOT BE ABLE to take the Dragon's soul (according to Ishy's own belief)...

 

This is the description of Lews Therin's death:

 

"The air turned to fire, the fire to light liquefied."

 

I believe THIS is the POINT OF VIEW of Lews Therin being balefired by Ishamael... continuing:

 

"The bolt that struck from the heavens would have seared and blinded any eye that glimpsed it, even for an instant. From the heavens it came, blazed through Lews Therin Telamon, bored into the bowels of the earth. Stone turned to vapor at its touch. The earth thrashed and quivered like a living thing in agony. Only a heartbeat did the shining bar exist, connecting ground and sky, but even after it vanished the earth yet heaved like the sea in a storm. Molten rock fountained five hundred feet into the air, and the groaning ground rose, thrusting the burning spray ever upward, ever higher. From north and south, from east and west, the wind howled in, snapping trees like twigs, shrieking and blowing as if to aid the growing mountain ever skyward. Ever skyward."

 

This is suicide by overload of One Power. I believe BOTH happened!!! But "the Dragon is one with the land" and CANNOT be balefired. Thus the Breaking of the World, thus the unraveling of the Pattern and the cracking of the seal found lately in the Eye of the World. Thus the Dragonmount paradox!!!

 

And finally, about Ilyena and the others killed by the Kinslayer: I believe THEIR LIVES WAS RESTORED!!! Ilyena and the others understood part of what happened and went into hiding... Lews Therin's blood survived and I believe his descendants FOUNDED MANETHEREN!!! If this theory is possible, the ancient blood of Manetheren is also (in a way) THE PEOPLE OF THE DRAGON!!!

 

Jordan and Sanderson have always been vague when answering some questions about the prologue; I don't believe I've "discovered the truth" or anything like that, it's just a theory I'd like to share!!!

 

Thanks for the reply!!!

 

 

Edited August 17 by Ogier Jr.
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[Mailman]

On 8/18/2025 at 3:27 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Had Lews Therin balefired himself his soul would have been ripped from the Pattern and Rand could not have been born, if I understand the lore correctly. 

 

On a non-canon point, it would an interesting idea, death by self balefire. As this would remove you from the pattern in the past... Meaning you would not have balefired yourself. Would this create a temporal paradox like killing your own grandparents in the past? Or in the case cited, would LTT and his soul be removed from the Pattern and Ilyena and the others be restored to life? Could he have undone the attack on Shayol Ghul? I guess undoing something like that would destroy the Pattern quicker than destroying whole cities as the Age Lace is woven around such important events. 

 

To be fair, I think Jordan kept his magic system soft to avoid such paradoxes. I feel Sanderson would be the kind of author to explore the implications this would cause in a hard magic system, like he did with Gateways in his books. 

@Ogier Jr.

I never thought that Elan balefired LTT from recollection he was not at dragonmount till after the mountain was formed and the description was of a lightning strike. So unless we are going down the unreliable narrator track it is not what happened.

 

On self-balefire it could be similar to healing in that you are simply unable to use it on yourself. In my opinion the actual weave would be nullified at the moment of creation so it would not matter what amount of power was actually used and you would remain alive.

[Ogier Jr.]

49 minutes ago, Mailman said:

@Ogier Jr.

I never thought that Elan balefired LTT from recollection he was not at dragonmount till after the mountain was formed and the description was of a lightning strike. So unless we are going down the unreliable narrator track it is not what happened.

 

On self-balefire it could be similar to healing in that you are simply unable to use it on yourself. In my opinion the actual weave would be nullified at the moment of creation so it would not matter what amount of power was actually used and you would remain alive.

Yup, I think it may be the case of the unreliable narrator: we know when Ishy appeared in Tar Valon but I believe he could easily follow LTT (he had just Healed the Dragon using True Power), Traveling to the place that became Dragonmount without Lews Therin noticing; there he balefired the Dragon (who is one with the land, and "the land" cannot be balefired) and entered in flesh in Tel'aran'rhiod, reappearing in Tar Valon after LTT's suicide... and I believe the lightning WAS made by Lews Therin with the One Power, both things, the lightning AND balefire happened at exactly the same time, unraveling the Pattern, cracking one of the seals and beginning the Breaking of the World!!!

 

Of course, it's just a theory I really wanted to share!!!

 

Thanks for the reply!!!