Lan's ending makes no sense to me

[Apple]

Spoilers for the whole series I guess. 

 

I finally got around to reading the Brandon Sanderson novels (without rereading the RJ ones which I read when they came out, so there's a bit of a time gap there). I'm not trying to have a go at them, but one thing that really surprised me and even after trying to think it over I just don't get is Lan's ending. Thematically, aside from writing differences and author voice etc, I mean. 

 

Both Lan and Nynaeve were characters that struck me as torn between what they want and what they feel they need to do, happy when their duty lines up with helping those they care about. When you get right down to it, they'd both abandon duty to save people they care about, (and feel terrible about it).

 

Lan never struck me as desperately wanting to be a king, is it just meant to be a slightly downer ending for him? Here's some more duty, even though it's just more weight for you.

 

I had a flick back through some of the earlier books and Nynaeve seems to be happiest when she's bossing people around, but not when she IS the boss. She likes helping people and helping them help themselves. And Lan seems happiest when he's being useful and given tasks to do, but not ordered around. He's also not much of an order-er, more an advice giver to help people improve themselves.

 

I just can't reconcile that the tone seems to be this is what it's all been leading up to and it's a "good" outcome for them. He's now "crowned" king of an even more dead people and is I guess going to restore Malkier for the benefit of the dozen survivors who want to settle back there? I guess I was just expecting if anyone was going to let go of the past and ride off into the sunset just going around being helpful in small ways to the world it would be those two. Fought the shadow and won, gonna go live my life now. Or even dead on the battlefield makes more sense to me- his duty is done, Nynaeve spends the rest of her life mad at him (and a bit sad).

 

Did anyone think it was good or coherent? Can you explain why?

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I think it is a bit of the uncrowned King cliche, he cannot really walk away from that, he doesn't have anyone to pass it onto.

 

Outside of the over-used trope, I think it was that he had his battle with the Blight that he couldn't win, one that he swore to fight alone. Then he met Moiraine and realized her fight was even more important. Then he has has something similar to Rand where he accepts he cannot make decisions for others and raises the Golden Crane because it needs to be done. 

 

And he wins his war that cannot be won. He finally has something more than a widow's mourning clothes to offer. His country is back, the Blight defeated, Moiraine's battle won and her need for him over. He can finally live the life his parents wanted for him.

 

I mean yeah, it's a bit twee but I think the arc works more or less. One of the few bits of the end that did not irritate the goat's left stone out of me 😄

[Apple]

I guess to me "living the life his parents wanted" is a downer ending. He's been doing that for years- being a battle lord and trying to avenge what could not be defended. Didn't seem to make him too happy. Finally succeeded beyond what could ever have been imagined. That was his out! He avenged!

But the ending is now he's going to rebuild what couldn't be defended.

 

I really got the impression his whole arc was living free rather than getting dragged around by duty forever. His parents made promises on him as a literal baby, he's done the impossible, now he's signing up for more parental cleanup duty? 

His wife has a job to get back to!

 

Why, in a meta sense, transfer his bond away from Moiraine- obsessed with fighting the shadow, use people as needed, born into nobility- to Nynaeve- tearer down of hierarchies, people are not tools, small village woman? What's the symbolism if not that the first does not lead to a happy ending for him?

 

I get the trope, I do, but I can't reconcile it with the series. I'm going to have to re-read and see if I can find any hints I guess.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I'd say it is more that his role as leader of his people had always been to lead them to their deaths, for them to die for his battle.

 

Now he gets to protect them and nourish them, admitting his birth right and flying the Golden Crane no longer means that people will die and he does not have to refuse the duty to live his life. Now his duty is to love and love and be with his family and countrymen. 

 

I don't think he ever wanted free, not like Mat did, he just wanted more to offer those around him. And now he is a King, that is a pretty big change.

[Apple]

Appreciate the perspective. Turning both your posts over in my mind.

Agree on Moiraine, her fight’s done and I don’t think either of them feel a need for each other anymore, more of a pop-in on an old friend every so often going forward.

Not sure on the offering more – it was never an argument even he seemed to buy into, especially since he both decided to marry and then decided he had to go fight anyway. I really thought that was the point - he didn’t need to offer more than himself and to let people come along with him if they wanted to (marriage or in to battle). He’s not a one-man army or one man who is the whole of the Malkieri people. Basically, I thought the thread was going to be he’s not the embodiment of his peoples in the form of one man (a King), so I’m having trouble figuring out how that fits. He’s just never had much of a uniting role throughout the series I don’t think, which I would have expected to be hinted at, maybe I just need to look back through with that in mind.

I can see that being a leader now does not just mean his people will go to their deaths. From anyone else that would click for me, no problem. However, he never seemed to be particularly upset about soldiers dying – even when Moiraine “died” he seemed to think she died doing an important job. Death is what it is. We don’t get his POV though, so maybe I’ve been misreading him. Maybe that’s the angle to come at it from, that it’s not just about death anymore, I’ll mull it over.

I’m not sure what to do with Min’s future visions though. I honestly thought his was going to be either that the seven towers are broken because he either leaves them alone or dies and hands *something* to his child (sword in the hand of the baby), either a task or a fight or something else. I suppose it could be just that he gets the broken towers (and presumably restores them, so why are they broken in her vision?) and passes the battle on to his child (why a sword/battle if it'll be peaceful times though?).

Still though, new Age, new beginnings, let’s go back and restore this dead kingdom is… I dunno, not all clicking together :S

Though hmm, maybe there's a resurrection theme I've overlooked.

[Dagon Thyne]

Sanderson felt that he should have died but RJ wanted him to life and left clear notes.  Sanderson followed any instruction on character arcs when available.  

 

It's sorta like Aragon in LOTR.  He served his purpose and a glorious death would br fitting but the author had b in world plans for after.  RJ had been planning sequel books including for Lan and Nynaeve so the notes he left were aiming towards that and Sanderson followed the notes.

[Apple]

It's not the "not dying" I'm struggling with it's the "being king". Was that an RJ note? I feel like there's a whole mass of connecting tissue missing if so.

 

I get the parallels with Aragorn (and I'm not a fan of his story, but it 'fits' in lotr), but Malkier isn't run by stewards, it's uninhabited wasteland (now recovering) and his potential father-in-law isn't standing in the way of marrying his (very passive) lady love until he's crowned, so the same drivers aren't there for him.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

In the early Lan scenes I think he is quite specific about why he won't raise the Golden Crane and won't lead anyone into the Blight. It is quite clearly framed I think through Moiraine's pov that he has a war with the blight and the shadow, one that he knows he cannot win and he cannot quit. He is just pausing it to help Moiraine as it is something that would hurt the shadow more than anything else. So for me the ending is that he can finally see past that paradox of being in a war he cannot win, cannot get out of, cannot ask for help. Though it is not much of an arc in the end as what else would he think the Final Battle was? Surely he could see the end coming even if he did not expect to survive it.

 

I always thought the visions were about his past, though now you point it out, that doesn't make a lot of sense compared to all her other visions. *Shrugs*

[Apple]

My reading on why he won't raise the Golden Crane was partly that he knew it was a waste of lives for no real gain but also he doesn't want people who would feel obligated to come, as he himself does, to feel like they have to go out of a sense of duty. It's kind of miserable to get dragged around by and throw your life away (literally or figuratively) for duty, especially when you are pulled between multiple. It's not that he cannot ask for help, it's that he doesn't want to do to others what is/was done to him. He's got a protective personality.

 

When he was discussing the borderlands with Nynaeve in KoD he's talking about Rand just messing around when he should be getting the borderlands in order and someone should be sent to convince their leaders to do their job. They talk about how he's ridden with people but he won't lead them into battle. He's also throughout the series mostly a supporting character and that's kind of his strength.

 

It was jarring to me in the new books that he apparently was planning to literally ride by himself and die facing a 100,000 strong army and do his best to avoid anyone else. That's not helping anyone Lan 🙄

[Samt]

I've always been torn on whether or not Lan should have actually died when he sheathed the sword.  On the one hand, it seems cheap that sheathing the sword is supposed to be about willingness to pay the price for defeating evil and neither of the times we see it in the series does it result in death.  At least Rand pays a price with the wound.  Lan is just somehow not dead and doesn't really have to suffer.  

 

On the other hand, Lan's line is that duty is heavier than a mountain and death is lighter than a feather.  Death was never the price that he should narratively be required to pay because he was too willing to pay it.  And if Lan does, it leaves Nynaeve a widow, both narratively and literally.  If Lan were to die, I think it would be poetic if we find out that Nynaeve is pregnant with their son.  She goes to Malkier and becomes a dowager queen regent who raises the next king.  Of course, being a powerful Aes Sedai, she would live long enough to be adviser to the line of the kings of Malkier for generations.  But ultimately, I think it's good that Lan lives because he needs to fulfill his duty and death would only have been a release from the duty.

 

Of course, if Lan lives, I think it makes complete sense that he goes and rebuilds Malkier after the last battle.  He resisted becoming king because he didn't think there was a future and didn't want to lead others to their deaths.  With the shadow defeated and the blight pushed back, Malkier has a future.  And Lan is the king.  It's his duty to rebuild his land and be a leader for his people.  That part never bothered me.  It would have been weird to me if Lan doesn't rebuild Malkier after defeating the shadow.

[Apple]

Dying against Demandred though? Sheathing the sword is when you want your goal more than life. Demandred's an important commander but I just don't think Lan has a personal enough connection to him for that to be satisfying. If he wants Demandred dead more than life, why?

I'm not sure what's meant to be going on with the handing around of the medallion (other than some sort of comparison of power level thing which is kind of silly), but it'd come across as a bit... "died avenging Gawyn and Galad".

 

Actually, now I'm not sure why Lan was fighting him at all and why a big deal was made of it. It's not like it's a growth moment for him. Yeah, he's still fighting, he's been doing that for a while, nobody ever called him a quitter on that front nor did he overcome his morbid mindset, he actually leaned in to it. I guess his arc is keep being willing to die for vengeance and eventually you'll get a good (?) outcome. It's not like he had more willingness to die than Gawyn or Galad so maybe it's just a celebration of competence?

[Samt]

I'd agree the repetitive nature of the Gawyn, Galad, Lan attack is a bit weird.  However, I don't think Lan's attack is really related to a desire to avenge Gawyn and Galad in particular.  He barely knows them.  And he doesn't have a particular grudge with Demandred either.  His battle with the shadow is so personal that it isn't personal at all.  It's his entire reason for existing, or at least was before he met Nynaeve.  He attacks Demandred because he is the visible leader of the shadow's forces.  

 

The medallion is somewhat a plot device that makes it plausible for non-channelers to maybe present a threat to channelers.  

[Apple]

I meant if he had died (specifically via sheathing the sword) as you suggested it would have been weirdly intimately linking him to those two. I agree, he barely knows them, it would sort of imply he succeeded where they failed because he had a passion to avenge them as there's no other strong personal connection to him killing Demandred but it's made out as a big deal. I'm not sure why we're celebrating him standing up after killing a dude, it's a powerful blow against the enemy, but kind of weak for an implied character peak.

I'm starting to think it's just smashing action figures together to see if Batman or Superman would win, maybe these final books just aren't for me.

[Shendla]

Just pointing this out about Lan: RJ meant him to be a parallel to Lancelot du Lac, his background, his kingdom, etc., are part of this.

Likewise, Demandred is a parallel to Mordred. In the Arthurian legends, Mordred faces Arthur and they kill each other. Sometimes it is Lancelot (Lan) who fights Mordred, and THEY kill each other. So, since Arthur (Rand) is in Shayol Ghul, it's up to Lancelot (Lan) to take out Mordred (Demandred).

 

Now, I agree with Brandon. Lan SHOULD have died, and "technically" did...until Rand pulled his "vis major" (act of god) and gave him enough of a life force that Narishma was able to Heal him enough to keep him from dying until he was taken to an actual Channeler who could do better.

 

So, in the sense of carrying on with the Arthurian-theme RJ used throughout the series, Lan's "Sheathing the Sword" makes perfect sense.

[Samt]

13 hours ago, Apple said:

I meant if he had died (specifically via sheathing the sword) as you suggested it would have been weirdly intimately linking him to those two. I agree, he barely knows them, it would sort of imply he succeeded where they failed because he had a passion to avenge them as there's no other strong personal connection to him killing Demandred but it's made out as a big deal. I'm not sure why we're celebrating him standing up after killing a dude, it's a powerful blow against the enemy, but kind of weak for an implied character peak.

I'm starting to think it's just smashing action figures together to see if Batman or Superman would win, maybe these final books just aren't for me.

I think it depends on what you expect from your fiction and what genre you think you are reading.  Is this a story about epic heroes with destiny and foreshadowing leading to a cathartic climax where everything has a place and a reason and Chekov's gun always goes off?  Or is this supposed to be some realistic fiction where things raise questions about the meaning of life and sometimes things happen and we have to ask if there really is a higher power or is it all just pointless?  I think WoT falls in the middle between those two and is a little of both.  We do have some epic struggles between paragons.  But also, some things happen just because.  I think that Lan is characterized by a hopeless struggle with the shadow.  If he were to die, it wouldn't be about the specific nature of his opponent.  It could be Demandred or a horde of trollocs overrunning him.  The point would be that he met his fate on his feet with a sword in his hands.

 

Of course, I ultimately think it's good that he survived, but I don't think that his personal connection to his opponent or to Gawyn and Galad is important.

[Dedicated]

On 9/15/2024 at 4:35 AM, Apple said:

Lan never struck me as desperately wanting to be a king, is it just meant to be a slightly downer ending for him? Here's some more duty, even though it's just more weight for you.

 

Lan never really "wanted" anything but to fulfill his duty which he see as dying in the fight against the shadow. Lan's entire life had been about loss, misery and battle. Lan never really thought about a "life after Tarmon Gaidon". Lan always figured he'd die in battle and follow the fate of his people. Given that the Shadow was defeated again and peace restored, he's kind of at a loss for what to do and since he had always been stoic and accepting of his cruel fate he needs the help of people around him to relax and get some of that Two River's lovin' and rebuild his people as the Aan'allein. I can't imagine a cushier job than king of an already well ordered and honorable people (but maybe I'm being obtuse).

 

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I had a flick back through some of the earlier books and Nynaeve seems to be happiest when she's bossing people around, but not when she IS the boss.

 

I don't think Nynaeve cares about boss status. She cares about doing the right thing and the first part of her arc is learning that she isn't the Wisdom anymore and that she has to learn how to interact with the kids she was groomed to care for and guide as peers instead of as subordinates. 

 

Thing about Nynaeve is, is she's an insufferable female dog for most of the series until she get's that Malkier shlong thrown in her. Nynaeve isn't really happy about anything and why should she be with all that pent up sexual frustration? Like Lan, all she has known is misery, loss and duty. She cares deeply for Two Rivers kids who get swept away by fate and sees it as her duty to protect them. And she's failing. Not just failing, but she's also getting caught up in the same current the kids she's trying to protect are caught up in. 

 

So first Nynaeve tramps off to try to save to kids, but fails because she begrudgingly accepts that it's the necessary path. Then she decides she'll protect the kids on this path, by becoming a powerful Aes Sedai, all the while the kids she's trying to protect are outpacing her and she's struggling to work through her block to saidar and her unrequited love in Lan.

 

Lan, this dark, alluring stranger who makes her feel things she never felt before and the whole time she's struggling with hints that he likes her too, but he keeps putting her off telling her shit like, "I love you baby, but I just can't do it. My fate is to die in battle. I won't do that to you." How frustrating right? And she deals with this for like 8 books or something! And then there is the whole Myrelle thing... 

 

But I love how Nynaeve develops once she's finally with Lan. We get to see her being reasonable and more clearheaded, because at the end of the day Nynaeve is actually an incredibly awesome character and is totally wifey/queen material.

 

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I just can't reconcile that the tone seems to be this is what it's all been leading up to and it's a "good" outcome for them. He's now "crowned" king of an even more dead people and is I guess going to restore Malkier for the benefit of the dozen survivors who want to settle back there? I guess I was just expecting if anyone was going to let go of the past and ride off into the sunset just going around being helpful in small ways to the world it would be those two. Fought the shadow and won, gonna go live my life now. Or even dead on the battlefield makes more sense to me- his duty is done, Nynaeve spends the rest of her life mad at him (and a bit sad).

 

I don't know about riding off into the sunset and leading the life of a protagonist of a western series and you may have a point about the irreconcilable tone. Personally, I'm happy for Lan and Nynave. If the series were finished by someone today Lan might turn into a rudderless drunk who picks fights with people for no reason and Nynaeve just goes back to being an exceptional nagger.

 

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Did anyone think it was good or coherent? Can you explain why?

 

But this is a fantasy series with a happy ending. It's nice to see someone who was willing to die doing the right thing get a fairy tale ending. Egwene on the otherhand...