Book of Translation

[Guest Majsju]

There is an agreement that resulted in the dorrways' date=' ergo the answering of questions and granting of wishes is not the natural response of the finn. This is further evidenced but Mat's experiences and observations. We must conclude bob, that there is no expectation of answers or wishes through the tower, in absense of an evidence to the alternative. Though i do agree with the rest of your post.[/quote']

 

Actually, there is. RJ's answer that most of Mat's memories came from people that had entered through the Tower of Ghenjei pretty much shows that the same, or at least very similar agreement is held that way.

[Luckers]

Which is only proof that entrance to the finnworld can be attained through the tower... something i never argued. I argued that the answers and wishes are the result of a specific treaty, to do with the doorways. There is no evidence that those who entered through the tower gained either answers or wishes.

[Guest Majsju]

No proof, but definitly a pretty strong hint, since there should be some kind of treaty in place to give the finns access to those people's experiences. The alternative would be that the finns cheated, gave themselves that access without giving anything in return, and then tossed them out. Problem with that is, since the tower was more known in the past, why the heck would people continue going there once word spread what was going on?

[Luckers]

Not nessasarily. The finns seem to read Auras... does min need to give people stuff to read their aura? I mean i don't doubt that there is some advantage you get out of going there, but i dont think its under the treaty. Remember what Birgitte said about how dangerous it is to go there.

[Kadere]

RJ has stated that what the Finn do and what Min does are in no way related.

[Guest Majsju]

You're also mixing up the Finns. The ones you're refering to as "reading auras" (I personally believe they have some ability to read threads in the pattern), are the ones that provides answers. Those who grant wishes are the ones that gave Mat the memories, so it seems logical to assume those were the ones that somehow extracted those memories from people in the first place. And they are more than just memories of events, Mat knows the feelings of the people whose memories he has, that is far more than just reading the pattern.

[Luckers]

Kadere, im aware of that. Nevertheless the methodology seems similar. Both look around a person (at their aura, presumably) to see the future. Min displays a certain inability to see things around the Forsaken, and the Finns punish question touching the shadow. In any case, i never contested that, just that the Finns could percieve auras without the treaty... it is an ability is all the point i was making. Like Min's, or Perrins wolfbrotherhood, or Niccola's foretelling--I rather doubt they need an agreement for them to enact a personal ability.

 

Maj, i didn't mistake the two. The Aelfinn absorb experience as payment, while the Eelfinn actively asked for something else. Your assumption that the Aelfinn only read the threads of the pattern is flawd since there is direct evidence in the shadow rising that the Aelfinn absorb experience. It seems to be two different abilities.

 

In any case, all that i am saying is that the agreement--the trade of experience and payment for wishes and answers--is not the natural state of the Finn's. It is just that, a treaty that applies specifically to entrance through the different doors. The difference between the specifics of the two doors prove that. I was suggesting merely that those who enter through the tower are not bound by the treaty. Likely that meant potentional gains was greater, but also potential losses.

[Guest Majsju]

You misunderstood me. From what we've seen, it appears that the Aelfinn "feeds" on memories and experiences. Whereas the Eelfinn recieves a connection to the person that grants them access to future events in that persons life. The proof of that is that Mat remembers dying.

 

So to break it down, the Aelfinn feeds on what has been, the Eelfinn on what will be.

 

And the traty seems to be somewhat similar when using the Tower of Ghenjei as entrance, since Mat got memories from people who had entered that way.

[rd2000]

But, none of Mat's memories told him to use the tower to get to Finnland. It took Olver and Noal to clue him onto the fact that the tower was the way to Finnland. In all those memories Mat has, none has ever hinted they remembered being in, or going to Finnland. So how do we assume that any of those people that Mat now possesses the memories of....have ever been to Finnland?

[Guest Majsju]

But' date=' none of Mat's memories told him to use the tower to get to Finnland. It took Olver and Noal to clue him onto the fact that the tower was the way to Finnland. In all those memories Mat has, none has ever hinted they remembered being in, or going to Finnland. So how do we assume that any of those people that Mat now possesses the memories of....have ever been to Finnland?[/quote']

 

Which further shows that the Eelfinn extracts memories gathered after the people have left the tower. He can't remember going in, unless he would have a memory of someone doing it twice, because that happens before the deal is made. As for the lack of any memories in the timespan between sealing the deal, and leaving the tower, it might just take a little while before the connection kicks in. Or the finns have chosen to not gather that information. If they want experiences from our world, why waste effort on picking up things from their own?

[rd2000]

Or, none of those people ever did enter Finnland. And the Finn's can harvest memories and experiences as they choose, from people of their choosing.

This seems more likely to me as Mat has memories of dieing. Hard to go into Finnland after your dead, no?

[Guest Majsju]

Or' date=' none of those people ever did enter Finnland. And the Finn's can harvest memories and experiences as they choose, from people of their choosing.

This seems more likely to me as Mat has memories of dieing. Hard to go into Finnland after your dead, no?[/quote']

 

Nope, RJ has confirmed that Mat's memories comes from people who entered finnland, and most of them through the tower. So that part is clear.

[rd2000]

I hate the fact that RJ does crap like this. Nowhere in the books does it give you the ability to deduce that those people had those memories "removed" by the Finn's. Quite the opposite actually. Mat never remembers being in Finnland except for his personal experience. None of his Finn-granted memories indicate even knowledge of the Finn's. Therefore you think that maybe the memories were from BEFORE they visited Finnland. However, some of Mat's memories include dieing. How can someone die, then go to Finnland to have their memory saved by the Finns? It seems like RJ didn't think this one through.

[Guest Majsju]

I hate the fact that RJ does crap like this. Nowhere in the books does it give you the ability to deduce that those people had those memories "removed" by the Finn's. Quite the opposite actually. Mat never remembers being in Finnland except for his personal experience. None of his Finn-granted memories indicate even knowledge of the Finn's. Therefore you think that maybe the memories were from BEFORE they visited Finnland. However' date=' some of Mat's memories include dieing. How can someone die, then go to Finnland to have their memory saved by the Finns? It seems like RJ didn't think this one through.[/quote']

 

Except that RJ has planted the possibility of the finns creating a link with the people they make deals with, which allows them access to that person's experiences after leaving the Tower. A hint or three about Mat losing an eye, for example...

[Luckers]

Yeah, there was supporting evidence in the book...

[Inara]

i didnt really like how mat just jumped to that conclusion; the characters never seem to be wrong unless you as the reader know what the truth is. i can handle perrin's deductions, but mat has never really been know for his accurate deductive skills, luck, sure, but not logic.

i kept thinking that it couldnt be true; that there was going to be a big 'pie in face' reveal where we found out that the ins had access to all memorie, but only after someone died...or something like that.

 

imo, there seemed to be a bitmissing from there.

[rd2000]

Well, in Mat's defense....he is probably the greatest military strategist in Randland. That would imply some pretty hefty problem solving skills. Though Rodel Ituralde seems to be able to lay some real complex plans himself too. However, it does seem odd that Mat just came to the conclusion suddenly that the Finn's could see everything he did. He thinks it's through his gift amulet that they see though.

[Guest Majsju]

No, Mat thinks that the finns are "in his head". It has nothing to do with the medallion, and he doe not think in that direction.

[Trib4l]

Actually I think the medallion gives him a clue as to which eye they can see through.

[rd2000]

Yeah, there's a passage I remember in one of the latter books. He's looking at his medallion and thinking that the Finn's are using it to see through him, or know what's happenning.

[Guest Majsju]

Ok, let's try a direct quote from KOD, instead of vague memories...

 

"Burn him, the bloody foxes were inside his head right then! They had to be. It was the only explanation that made sense."

 

(KOD, Dragon's Eggs)

[rd2000]

Maj, I am not arguing your point. You seem to see yourself opposed to me for some reason. I am only pointing out that Mat thinks the medallion is the link the Finn's use.

[Guest Majsju]

Which is opposed to Mat thinking that they are in his head. If he had thought it had been the medallion, he would have taken it off when they discussed the rescueing mission.

 

I repeat the quote again,

"Burn him, the bloody foxes were inside his head right then! They had to be. It was the only explanation that made sense."

 

Inside his head, not inside the medallion.

[rd2000]

Ok, let me explain myself a little more clearly then.

I merely suggested that the medallion was the link that allowed the Finn's into his head or whatever in the first place. More abstractly than a "live transmission device" than you seem to think I am saying.

[Samitsu]

think it's a bookthat can be used to navigate a Portal Stone. They can lead to both mirror worlds and parallell worlds. Question is, how would they operate a Portal Stone, since from what we've seen they require channeling?

 

Who knows, maybe its some sort of Ter'angreal?