Cadsuane's Sisters

[Luckers]

All of that is true except for the very last. Whether Cadsuane wants to be or not is very relevant, and frankly i do not think she'd want to be; hence her sending those that have gravitated to her, but whom she did not want around, away.

[cloglord]

I think that you are fixated on the fact that she sent them away. You equate their departure with her aggravation, I see them as two seperate issues. Cadsuane is irritated by most everyone, near as I can tell, yet she still uses and directs whoever she wants. It doesn't nessecarily have to read that she sent them away, as in pushing them aside, it could simply be, that they irritated her, so she found a use for them quickly to get them out of her hair.

 

Further, it isn't a situation where random sisters are gravitating towards Cadsuane, it is clear that she is actively gathering sisters. It doesn't make sense that she would gather in Aes Sedai X, Y, or Z and then just change her mind because they bug her.

[Theandrin]

Alright, this is my idea of the sisters Cadsuane has been collecting. Keep in mind that most of this is only speculation and my idea of events.

 

Cad knows that Taim is in charge of the Black Tower, what i'm thinking is that when she helped to capture him earlier in the books she learned that he is a darkfriend. So this is where everything in my theory starts to go together.

 

We know that a battle is going to happen in the black tower, but that problem is, who will be involved in that battle? Rand has already said the he is to busy to deal with Taim, and Egwene and Elaida's Aes Sedai are to busy dealing with the civil war. We also know however, that about 300 sisters are not getting involved. What im thinking is that Cad is trying to gather as many sisters as she can, those who have not chosen a side, and prepare them for an attack on the BT. This would explain why sisters, that Elayne doesn't know, seem to be gathering in Caemlyn. However I don't believe that Cad will be able to gather enough sisters to do the attack on the BT. This is where Logain and his glory aura comes in.

 

Logain and many of the loyal Asha'men will greatly assist Cad in her attack on the BT. However Logain is not part of my theory here.

 

To fill in the gap where Min told Rand that Cad will tell all of the Asha'men something, this is it. That Taim is a darkfriend.

I will admit that at first I thought it would be something greater than this, but so far, I think Rand only speculates that Taim might be a darkfriend. A simple answer to what Min said, but an answer.

 

Alright, I think this fills up my theory on Cad's sisters.

 

Like I said before, this is just what I'm thinking might happen. Chances are I have missed a few things in this theory that I have simply forgotten about. So, there is my take on the sisters.

 

Theandrin

[cloglord]

From The COT Prolouge

 

This was not the first time she had been pulled into one of the legendary Green's designs.  Cadsuane could be more devious than a Blue, schemes inside plots wrapped in strategems and all hidden behind still others.  Some were planned to fail in order to help others succeed, and only Cadsuane knew which were which.

 

Cadsuane is not directing random sisters in the execution of short term plans.  She is devious and scheming.

 

From WH CH. 13

 

She had begun gathering sisters she trusted, those here with her and others, the day she first heard of strange events in Shienar...

 

Yes, there are around ten at her Carhienen locatiion, but there are an unspecified number of sisters that she has gathered and sent elsewhere.  She has been gathering these sisters for the better part of two years.

 

From WH Ch 23  Sarene tells Harine

 

When Cadsuane orders we must obey...

 

When Cadsuane gives an order it must be obeyed.

 

To recap, Cadsuane is a master manipulator who is directly controlling an undetermined number of sisters, (more than 20 at least,) that she has been gathering for the last 2 years.  I'd say that none of the afore mentioned theories are out of the realm of possibility.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Cadsuane is not directing random sisters in the execution of short term plans.  She is devious and scheming.

 

The fact that she is devious and scheming is not proof that she is creating an organized "Third Faction".

 

Yes, there are around ten at her Carhienen locatiion, but there are an unspecified number of sisters that she has gathered and sent elsewhere.

 

The key being "unspecified".

 

She has been gathering these sisters for the better part of two years.

 

That means nothing.  You can gather sisters at a rate of five per year for two years and still only get 10.  And that statement would lead one to believe that her "gathering" has a purpose other then dealing with the schism in the Tower (since the "strange events in Shienar" took place before the Tower split).  Like ... oh ... the Dragon Reborn?  She doesn't need hundreds of Aes Sedai for that.  She needs a few specific ones that she can trust, as was stated.  Trustworthiness and skill are more important considerations than numbers.  And if those Sisters she could trust were spread out, it could well have taken the better part of two years to find them all, since she only recently learned to Travel.

 

When Cadsuane gives an order it must be obeyed.

 

Thats purely a function of the old hierarchy system, not evidence of a new gathering faction.  She could walk into the Tower or the Rebel Camp and get a similar reaction from anyone but Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve.  And maybe Elaida, although frankly, after 2 minutes with Cadsuane, I think Elaida would be taking orders too.

[cloglord]

The fact that she is devious and scheming is not proof that she is creating an organized "Third Faction".

 

Nope, its not, and I never claimed it was.  What I do think it is, is indicative of the type of schemer that Cads is.  While I have no proof that Cads is controlling this free third of Aes Sedai, it does prove that she is capable of it.

 

The key being "unspecified".

 

I can specify further if you wish.  At the VERY minimum, Cadsuane is in control of the "ten or more," sisters referenced by the wiseone who meets the group after Dumai's wells.  They're are staying in the same palace as she, and are thought of as being under her control, at least so far as to send them on when they irritate her.  Further, there are the everchanging number of sisters that are staying at the silver swan.  Of them the only clue as to their motives comes from Elayne's POV that indicates that there was a whispered mention of Cadsuane overheard there.  If we add these 10 to the ten from carhien it means that Cadsuane is very likely in charge of at least 20 sisters.  A number that puts her on par with Ferane Neheran, the head of the white in TV.  Considering that both of these groups of sisters has been described as constantly changing in its makeup, it is not far fetched to double this number.  Fourty sisters under her direct control makes her the leader of an organized third faction.

 

That means nothing.  You can gather sisters at a rate of five per year for two years and still only get 10.  And that statement would lead one to believe that her "gathering" has a purpose other then dealing with the schism in the Tower (since the "strange events in Shienar" took place before the Tower split).  Like ... oh ... the Dragon Reborn?  She doesn't need hundreds of Aes Sedai for that.  She needs a few specific ones that she can trust, as was stated.  Trustworthiness and skill are more important considerations than numbers.  And if those Sisters she could trust were spread out, it could well have taken the better part of two years to find them all, since she only recently learned to Travel.

 

Again this was not offered as proof, it is intdicative of what she is capable of.  In less than two years every sister in the world has heard of the tower split, they've heard about Logain, the've heard about Taim, they've heard about the dragon reborn.  Word travels plenty fast by pigeon for Cadsuane to have POSSIBLY made contact with the unalligned third, especially, if she was activating the equivalent of an Aes Sedai phone tree.  It would not have taken 2 years, traveling or not, to have put herself in charge of a large number of sisters. 

 

Incedently, could you track down the place where 'it was stated' that cadsuane only tracked down a few specific ones that she could trust?  I'd love to read it, I must have missed that one. 

 

Thats purely a function of the old hierarchy system, not evidence of a new gathering faction.  She could walk into the Tower or the Rebel Camp and get a similar reaction from anyone but Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve.  And maybe Elaida, although frankly, after 2 minutes with Cadsuane, I think Elaida would be taking orders too.

 

Again, this is indicative, not proof.  If she is talking to large numbers of sisters, if she is meeting with them, she is in charge by default.  Considering the first quotation I gave, if she is meeting with sisters, not only is she in charge by default, but she is likely using them in the orchestration of one of her schemes.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Fourty sisters under her direct control makes her the leader of an organized third faction.

 

I'm sorry, but there is a BIG difference between giving directions to forty sisters, in the same way that she could have 20 years ago because of her position in the Aes Sedai hierarchy, and organizing a third of the Tower (300-400 Sisters) into a "Third Faction", like the Tower and Salidar factions.

 

I have no problem with Cadsuane having directed 40 or so sisters (although I think its likely limited to about 20-25).

 

Again this was not offered as proof, it is intdicative of what she is capable of.

 

There are alot of things she "could" do that she doesn't.  She could easily have been Amyrlin by now, but had no desire to.  In part because leading that sort of organized group doesn't give her the freedom to act as she wants.  She operates much better as an independent Sister, with a few trusted followers, who just happens to be able to give orders to any other Sister she comes across.

 

Again, this is indicative, not proof.

 

Indicative only of what she COULD do, not that she has any reason or inclination TO do it.  Again, if we're talking about what she COULD do, there are half a million things in the mix.

 

I'm talking about what is indicated by what we've SEEN.  And that is, between 20 and at the most, 40 sisters, operating not as a "Third Faction", but as independent Sisters that had to take orders from Cadsuane because of the established hierarchy system.

[Jaric Mondoran]

Almost all readers would agree that Cadsuane is terminally manipulative and unlikely to change given her advanced age; she's also made it abundantly clear that she'll use whatever tools she finds necessary to achieve her goals, including other sisters.  And as RAW has said there's no direct evidence that she's gathered more than a few dozen sisters together.

 

Much more interesting to me is speculation about what her goals might be; this might even give insight into how many sisters she'd need to accomplish them.  Her pact with Sorilea and Min's vision about her and the Asha'man have gotten a fair bit of ink on this thread; specifically, I'd say that her dealings with both the Asha'man and various noblemen of Rand's conquered territories seem to be designed to maintain the relevance of Aes Sedai in the drastically changing world order of the latter books.  She adjusts to these changes better than any Aes Sedai other than Moiraine, Siuan, and the Wondergirls, and notice how she places Aes Sedai to watch over key cities in her absence and schemes to have them bind Asha'man as Warders.  She immediately realizes the importance male channellers will have in the future now that the taint is gone, and wants Aes Sedai connected to them just as they used to be connected to each ruler.  In addition, sending Jahar and Merise to the Salidar Aes Sedai in Book 11 sounds to me like an overture designed to sway this faction to her way of thinking.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Her primary goal is pretty well established; she wants to 1) ensure that Rand al'Thor wins the Last Battle, and 2) ensure that the world survives the victory.

 

All of her comments regarding the current split in the Tower indicate that she regards her "Sisters" as irresponsible children squabbling at the worst time.  But she doesn't really seem to care who wins, just that they stop screwing things up for the fight against the Shadow.  I personally don't think she cares enough about who ends up in charge of the Tower to devote much time or effort to the problem at all.  She's focused on Rand al'Thor.  She doesn't have TIME to worry about a bunch of squabbling children.

[cloglord]

Her primary goal may be established, but that does not preclude her from having other goals, in fact, if you read that first bit about Cadsuane's typical schemes, you should assume that she aims at more targets than one.

 

You can say that she works better with a few trusted sisters, but you can't back it up anymore than I can conclusively say that she is definately in charge of a full third of the Aes Sedai.  Just because you state it as fact, doesn't make it so.  I have formed an opinion based on what I can find that describes Cadsuane's methods and actions.  You disagree, but I would really like to see any thing that you can offer to indicate that your opinion is more likely.  It is easy to tear something down, it's your turn to try and convince me that she isn't gathering more sisters than just those we have seen.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Um ... Cloglord, a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

 

You are the one speculating on things we haven't seen.  I'm the one saying "We haven't seen that".  The burden of proof is on you, and you haven't provided it.

[F Horn of Valere]

If she had been bound by the oath rod for one or two hundred years, her ageless face would probably still be there if she got unbound. Or perhaps she isn't bound by ALL the oaths, so the effects aren't as potent.

[lou]

most of the sisters "sitting on the fence" are doing so for many reasons.

elaida terminated a blue ajah, demoted sisters, split the tower, deposed an amerylin, the list goes on and on. these AS dont join the rebels because they are rebels. i dont see how cadsuane has much to do with all these AS. most seem suprised to see she is still alive.

[cloglord]

You are the one speculating on things we haven't seen.  I'm the one saying "We haven't seen that".  The burden of proof is on you, and you haven't provided it.

 

 

No, I don't think that I am.  I cited specific instances, that I believe make certain behaviors likely.  It is specifically speculation based on those citations, not 'things we haven't seen.' 

 

she doesn't really seem to care who wins, just that they stop screwing things up for the fight against the Shadow.

 

I never claimed that she had picked a side.  Here is a burden of proof moment.  Please tell me were you get the idea that she doesn't care that the tower is split.  Here's another one...

 

In part because leading that sort of organized group doesn't give her the freedom to act as she wants.  She operates much better as an independent Sister, with a few trusted followers, who just happens to be able to give orders to any other Sister she comes across.

 

Please tell us what indication you have gotten that she is or would be at all hindered by being the director of a large number of Aes Sedai.  Please give us the relevant indicators that compares cadsuanes abilities as an independant actor to her operational abilities while acting as a leader.  On what basis do you make these assertions?  Are you making them because you have read specific examples from her POV'S or the POV's of those around her, or do these statements come from your personal opinion?  I'm the one saying that I haven't seen these things.  It's your turn to prove your side.  Simply because more people tend to agree with you than me, does not let you off the hook for explaining why you come to the conclusions you do. 

 

 

[lou]

didnt cads once say that there was a time when the tower was going to ask her to be amerylin and she got the heck out of dodge, preferring to go her own way?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Please tell me were you get the idea that she doesn't care that the tower is split.

 

Ah, I never said "she doesn't care that the tower is split".  I said "she doesn't really seem to care who wins, just that they stop screwing things up for the fight against the Shadow."

 

Those are two very, very different statements.

 

Please tell us what indication you have gotten that she is or would be at all hindered by being the director of a large number of Aes Sedai.  Please give us the relevant indicators that compares cadsuanes abilities as an independant actor to her operational abilities while acting as a leader.  On what basis do you make these assertions?

 

Again, you're missing the point.  Her abilities are irrelevant.  Her preferences are what matter.  I firmly believe that Cadsuane is intellectually CAPABLE of doing what you say.  I just don't think that she IS doing what you say.

 

My reason?  She has deliberately avoided all such organized authority in the past.  It is her preferred method of action.

[cloglord]

Not to be too nitpicky, but...

 

Ah, I never said "she doesn't care that the tower is split".  I said "she doesn't really seem to care who wins, just that they stop screwing things up for the fight against the Shadow."

 

I never claimed that she had picked a side, I do maintain that she has plans in the works to have the tower reunited so that they, "stop screwing things up for the fight against the shadow."  Just because her main goal is Rand doesn't mean that she can't have other goals as well, other goals best executed by her able assistants.

 

Again, you're missing the point.  Her abilities are irrelevant.  Her preferences are what matter.  I firmly believe that Cadsuane is intellectually CAPABLE of doing what you say.  I just don't think that she IS doing what you say.

 

Yet you question her abilities, here I'll quote it for you.

 

 

She doesn't have TIME to worry about a bunch of squabbling children.

and

She operates much better as an independent Sister,

 

Here you are making unfounded judgements about what she is able to do, In the first case she has spent the better part of two years gathering sisters, and has surely known about the tower split nearly as long as there has been one, she has had the TIME to worry about it, unless you are assuming that the most devious sister in history can't multi-task.  The second instance, assumes, that her abilities are impared when working as a part of an organized group.  Again this, is unsupported, except by your reference to the rumour that she purposely avoided becoming Amrylin.  She could have wanted to avoid that particular post for any number of reasons besides the fact that it would impair her operational abilities.

 

 

My reason?  She has deliberately avoided all such organized authority in the past.  It is her preferred method of action.

 

In the past, there weren't false dragons jumping up 2 and 3 at a time, the tower wasn't split, there weren't any Ashaman, the dragon reborn wasn't running loose, and TG wasn't emminent. 

 

 

***Edited to correct a misquote***

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yet you question her abilities, here I'll quote it for you.

 

Both of the statements you quoted from me question her priorities, not her ability.  But, to make it perfectly clear, I believe that she has not involved herself directly in the Tower split, not because she is incapable of fixing it, but because she chooses to concern herself with more important things.  Given what we've seen of her actions, she seems to consider the split in the Tower a minor irritant at worst.

 

I never claimed that she had picked a side

 

No, you're claiming she created a NEW side.

 

In the past, there weren't false dragons jumping up 2 and 3 at a time, the tower wasn't split, there weren't any Ashaman, the dragon reborn wasn't running loose, and TG wasn't emminent.

 

All true.  But has she volunteered to be Amyrlin of either group?  Has she formed her own Hall of the Tower and marched to Tar Valon to set everyone straight?  No.

 

About the most involvement I could see from Cadsuane in this situation is that she might know about and have approved the Ajah Heads' plan.  What I do not, in any way, see, is her creation of a third, organized faction.

[cloglord]

Both of the statements you quoted from me question her priorities, not her ability

 

No, you are questioning her abilities.  You are saying she is unable to accomplish a fix to the white tower in the time left to her, and that her leadership of an organized faction would reduce her effective abilities.  Even if you intended to make comments on her priorities, you fail to provide any  up to date indicators of her preferences.  You cite the fact that she did not wan't to be amrylin, yet as I pointed out, the reasons that she refused that position are outdated, and were presumably much less compelling than the pressures towards leadership that she now faces.  You are correct that she has not gathered her own hall of the tower or proclaimed herself as a third amrylin, yet these things are also not indicative of her current attitude towards leadership either.  Simply, creating a third faction structured like the other two would be counterproductive to healing the white tower, and would serve no purpose towards her primary goal of aiding Rand.  Gathering in the fence sitters and directing them towards other goals, at the very least keeps them from picking sides in the tower conflict, and could concievably prove influential in its reunification.  It could also help to teach Rand and all of the Ashaman a lesson.

 

My point in these last few posts, is that you have nothing more concrete than I have provided to say that Cadsuane is not directing this other third of the sisters, and that in many cases you are making assumptions about her behavior simply because you have not seen sufficient clues to point definatively in another direction.  What's a mystery if you already know all the facts?  We can assume that this other third will end up welded into the WT reunification, because of Elaida's foretelling that the tower would be whole again and stronger than ever, that is unless you think that the tower can be stronger and more whole without these sisters?  If this other third is just going their own way, how do you propose that they will be a part of the reunification to the extent nessecary to fulfill this foretelling?  Do you think that the pattern will pull them all to TV?  Are they already there, just hanging out in the black hills waiting to see which side will win out?  Or could it be, just possibly, that Cadsuane has been subtly steering them, organizing them, preparing them to be a part of the solution not only to the tower's problems, but to others as well?

[RobertAlexWillis]

You are saying she is unable to accomplish a fix to the white tower in the time left to her, and that her leadership of an organized faction would reduce her effective abilities.

 

I specifically clarified my statement, so as to avoid any misunderstanding.  You're being silly now.

 

Even if you intended to make comments on her priorities, you fail to provide any  up to date indicators of her preferences.

 

How about the fact that she has made no contact with either faction, and is hiding with Rand al'Thor?

 

You are correct that she has not gathered her own hall of the tower or proclaimed herself as a third amrylin, yet these things are also not indicative of her current attitude towards leadership either.

 

Ah ... I hate to say it, but they are.

 

Simply, creating a third faction structured like the other two would be counterproductive to healing the white tower, and would serve no purpose towards her primary goal of aiding Rand.

 

I agree, which is why she hasn't done it.

 

Gathering in the fence sitters and directing them towards other goals, at the very least keeps them from picking sides in the tower conflict, and could concievably prove influential in its reunification.

 

The second half of that statement makes sense.  Its the "gathering" part I have a problem with.  "Gathering" implies organization, and we've seen none of that.  All we've seen is a little bit of "directing them towards other goals", which she could already do (and apparently frequently did) long before the schism in the Tower.  It doesn't indicate a change of behavior, or require any "gathering" of a full third of the Tower under her specific and constant guidance.

 

It could also help to teach Rand and all of the Ashaman a lesson.

 

That depends on the lesson.

 

My point in these last few posts, is that you have nothing more concrete than I have provided to say that Cadsuane is not directing this other third of the sisters, and that in many cases you are making assumptions about her behavior simply because you have not seen sufficient clues to point definatively in another direction

 

And what I've been saying is that if you believe something is actually going on, the burden for proof is on you.  When I say "We haven't seen that", thats exactly what I mean.  We haven't seen it.  And you haven't shown me anything that indicates it either.  You're just saying "She has the ability".  Well, just because she could, doesn't mean she is or would.

 

If this other third is just going their own way, how do you propose that they will be a part of the reunification to the extent nessecary to fulfill this foretelling?

 

They will simply rejoin whichever faction wins.

 

Do you think that the pattern will pull them all to TV?

 

TV won't be invented for Ages.  ;)

 

I'm kidding of course.  But no, I don't think the Pattern will pull them all to Tarmon Gaidon.  The full reunification of the Tower will probably spill over into the post-Tarmon Gaidon recovery, in my opinion.

 

Are they already there, just hanging out in the black hills waiting to see which side will win out?

 

They're not necessarily gathered around Tar Valon, but yes, I imagine they're doing just that: waiting to see who wins.

 

Look, many Aes Sedai dont spend alot of time in the Tower anyway.  Many of these are now the "independent" Sisters.  They're probably still working at whatever they were doing before the split, waiting it out.

 

Or could it be, just possibly, that Cadsuane has been subtly steering them, organizing them, preparing them to be a part of the solution not only to the tower's problems, but to others as well?

 

Steering?  Maybe a little.  She's going to give orders to any Sister she happens across.  Organizing?  I don't think so.

[cloglord]

How about the fact that she has made no contact with either faction, and is hiding with Rand al'Thor?

 

How do you know that she hasn't made contact?  She seems to know quite a lot about the situation, infering that she at least has eyes and ears in both camps.      One other indication that Cadsuane has had contact with at least one ajah head, is the fact that Adelnora (sp?) seems to know that Cadsuane is not dead when the  mass of aes sedai assume that she is dead.

 

Quote

You are correct that she has not gathered her own hall of the tower or proclaimed herself as a third amrylin, yet these things are also not indicative of her current attitude towards leadership either.

 

Ah ... I hate to say it, but they are.

 

Quote

Simply, creating a third faction structured like the other two would be counterproductive to healing the white tower, and would serve no purpose towards her primary goal of aiding Rand.

 

 

I agree, which is why she hasn't done it.

 

I'm going to assume that you were tired when you responded to this part.  In the first part you say that Cadsuane doesn't form her own competing faction because she doesn't like to lead, and then mere sentences later, you say she hasn't done it because it is counterproductive.  It is simple, the fact that she hasn't set herself up as amrylin is not indicative of her desire or lack thereof, to lead.  It doesn't make sense to set herself up as a competing amrylin, and it does not indicate anything other than the fact that she has common sense.  It would be like saying that I am not crazy because I have not made myself a suit of armor out of toast.  It certainly would not speak highly of my sanity, were I to do such a thing, but it is not suprising that I have not.  Further, it does not indicate anything about my love of toast, or my desire to eat it only in the mornings.  You can't use the fact that Cadsuane has not pursued an obviously bad idea as an indication that she does not like toast, er...to lead.

 

You're just saying "She has the ability".  Well, just because she could, doesn't mean she is or would.

 

You're saying that she lacks the disposition to lead, Well, just because she hasn't, doesn't mean that she does.

 

 

They will simply rejoin whichever faction wins.

 

This is too simplistic.  Elaida's viewing clearly indicates that the tower will be whole and it will be stronger than ever.  Without going back through old posts to find your stance on how much time is left before TG, I'll rely on my memory, and assume that you still think that there is not much time left.  If these fencesitters truely are unaligned, how do you propose that they are to recieve word and return to the tower in time to make the tower whole and strong?

[RobertAlexWillis]

How do you know that she hasn't made contact?  She seems to know quite a lot about the situation, infering that she at least has eyes and ears in both camps.

 

I'm sorry, I meant official contact, as in "I'm taking command" kind of contact.

 

In the first part you say that Cadsuane doesn't form her own competing faction because she doesn't like to lead, and then mere sentences later, you say she hasn't done it because it is counterproductive.

 

Those two states don't preclude each other.  She can dislike holding official leadership positions, and also acknowledge that forming a third faction is counterproductive.  The fact that she didn't pursue such position when it wasn't inherently counterproductive (ie before the split) is what indicates to me that she prefers other methods.

 

Well, just because she hasn't, doesn't mean that she does.

 

When she hasn't, but she could have, thats exactly what it means.

 

Elaida's viewing clearly indicates that the tower will be whole and it will be stronger than ever.  Without going back through old posts to find your stance on how much time is left before TG, I'll rely on my memory, and assume that you still think that there is not much time left.  If these fencesitters truely are unaligned, how do you propose that they are to recieve word and return to the tower in time to make the tower whole and strong?

 

The "stronger than ever" in Elaida's Fortelling comes from the massive number of novices and the Kin that Egwene has recruited.  You do realize that the number of channelers just aligned with Egwene's Saidar faction are more than were in the Tower before the split, right?  With the practice they've had with linking, even if none of the unaligned Sisters make it back before Tarmon Gaidon (and I think many of them won't) the Tower will still be stronger than it was, once Egwene is in control of the city.  And once the two factions become one again, all those Sisters scattered about are part of that reunified Tower, because there is no third faction holding their allegiance.

[lou]

i have to agree with robert on the point that the rebel sisters are in a better position with the circles that they form. they have the asha with them (rebels) to enlarge the circles. it is not likely the asha will come to elaida even should she ask. the asking will most likely have to come from egwene and i think it will be this very issue that will get elaida "set aside".

of course, who knows? maybe rj will have elaida fall in love with a goat farmer and run off to vegas to be married at the camelot....

[cloglord]

You seem pretty hung up on this idea of Cadsuane having refused official leadership resonsiblity precluding her from directly manipulating a third of the sisters in an entirely different capacity.  I do not, nor have I ever, said that I thought that Cadsuane was trying to be the official, known to all, leader of these unaligned sisters.  I do think that it is very likely that she is directing them none the less.

 

I also never said that forming a third faction was counterproductive, I said that forming a third faction that was organized like the other two was counterproductive. 

 

You do realize that the number of channelers just aligned with Egwene's Saidar faction are more than were in the Tower before the split, right?

 

Yes, but numbers do not equate strength, further the prophecy indicates that it will be stronger than ever, not stronger than it was two years ago.  If you mean that the addition of another thousand untrained channelers is sufficient to match the tower at its pinnacle, then I simply must disagree.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, but numbers do not equate strength, further the prophecy indicates that it will be stronger than ever, not stronger than it was two years ago.  If you mean that the addition of another thousand untrained channelers is sufficient to match the tower at its pinnacle, then I simply must disagree.

 

When Elaida says "stronger than ever", that can mean in her lifetime, it doesn't have to mean at the pinnacle of the Tower's strength.  Even with all the Sisters standing aside, the Tower faction, and the Salidar faction together, they probably don't match the Tower's pre-Trolloc Wars pinnacle. 

 

With the practice that the Salidar novices have in linking, with the addition of the Kin (who are not totally inexperienced) I think your assessment is dead wrong.  Egwene's faction alone is stronger than the Tower has been in the lifetime of anyone living.

 

I also never said that forming a third faction was counterproductive, I said that forming a third faction that was organized like the other two was counterproductive.

 

So, exactly how do you define "gathering" and "leading"?  I already said I'm sure that Cadsuane gives order to any and all Sisters she encounters.  What are you calling an "organization"?

 

If its just a matter of her saying "do this", and then leaving them to do it, I wouldn't consider that "gathering" them into an "organization".  If you think she's in relatively regular communication with all or most of them, with an organized agenda (of some kind ... you haven't really defined what it is) I say you're just plain wrong, and that would be counterproductive, as well as being the kind of thing Cadsuane has zero history of doing.  To do that she would have to either set up her own Hall, etc, or create an entirely new form of Aes Sedai hierarchy from scratch, something she has shown no desire to do.