CoS Battle with Sammael

[aburuq]

Hi all, been rereading series after a very many years, and just finished crown of swords. I gotta say of all the major Forsaken fights in the series so far the battle with Sammael was the most underwhelming and disappointing, especially considering the 2.5 books of build-up towards this moment.

 

First of all, just seemed a lot harder to believe how Rand pulled this off compared to other fights. Basically he just ends up seeming pretty invincible in a very unrealistic fashion. He literally just wakes from being a fingernail away from death, being scratched by Fains dagger (which in itself the whole scenario was annoying....like there's a bubble of evil around you and you know Fain is out there as well, you could just Skim out of there, but don't want to blow your cover for your really silly quarter-baked plan?)...anyways, he has been passed out 2 days,  can hardly stand up unsupported, has been Healed 3 times and not eaten anything for 2 days, so has zero strength, and is still in terrible pain. But he can somehow manage to be on his feet for the next however many hours while channeling large amounts of the power - that's already stretching a bit but okay fine. Then he gets hit by debris or something through the gateway when travelling away from the tower (how is he Travelling here anyway, he doesn't know Illian at all??), Then chases Sammael to shadar logoth and while there fights some trollocs and myrdraal with his fire sword, then has some lightening land 4 paces from (tosses him to the floor and blinds him momentarily?) Which he gets up from and keeps running, while also running from Mashedaar, runs up some stairs as well, falls and holds onto the ledge...after moridin saves him he just gets up and keeps going, channeling, avoiding lightning... And all throughout this I think saidin and the void both are shattered a couple times (isn't that potentially deadly?) ....Like it's a just bit ridiculous at this point, is there anything he can't do? Anything his body cannot withstand? I don't like Superman Rand. 

 

Secondly, I don't particularly understand Rand and Sammael's plans and strategies. For rands part, after 2 whole books of talking about this amazing strategy Bashir and Mat cooked up, turns out all it was was a diversion so Rand could go to Illian and disarm Sammael's wards. For one, is that really the best that Sammael the master of defense could have done as a nasty trap for any male channeler in the city?  For two, after that little diversion, Rand essentially had no plan really and still ends up on the defensive running away from Sammael's attacks...it's like how I felt in books 4-5 with all Rands talk of a trap for Asmodeon and Lanfear, in the end it was not really much of a plan at all, things just happened to work out ...Are we supposed to feel like Rand is a wee bit overconfident about his scheming but it doesn't really amount to much? 

 

As for Sammael, what was the point of his going to Shadar Logoth to fight Rand there?? Mashedaar could have killed Rand but just as likely to get Sammael too (as it indeed does in the end)...if he didn't want to destroy Illian he could have gone somewhere else...very strange.

 

Thoughts? Lazy writing, or am I missing things? 

[VooDooNut]

As far as Rand bouncing back quickly from injury, I chalk this up to the benefits of Rand being Alana's warder, and thus he has heightened strength and stamina.

[Stedding Tofu]

On 8/4/2022 at 3:35 AM, aburuq said:

Are we supposed to feel like Rand is a wee bit overconfident about his scheming but it doesn't really amount to much?

 

Absolutely. 

 

1. Rand duels Ishamael at Falme but has no plan other than to sheathe the sword in his own body to allow him a clean strike to "end" him.  He still thinks he's fighting The Dark One at this point.

 

2.  Rand goes to Tear to learn definitively whether he is The Dragon Reborn or just a "false dragon on Tar Valon strings".  Not only does he allow himself to be manipulated by one of The Forasken but he falls straight into Bel'als's trap and has to have his bacon saved by Moiraine.

 

3.  He travels from Tear to Rhuidean on the hunch that he can find a portal stone near tear and somehow work out to use it properly and that his angreal will have enough strength to allow him to transport everyone.  Ta'veren or lucky luck (Mat chooses the symbol for him IIRC) it works - barely.

 

4. He launches his strike on Caemlyn in a cold fury after learning of Morgase's apparent death and after Moiraine appeared to sacrifice herself to kill Lanfear because he wouldn't strike at a woman only to see Mat and Aviendha killed by Rahvin.  He follows Rahvin into Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh and gets bested until Nynaeve rescues him by semi-roasting Rahvin and Rand finishes him off with balefire, so bringing back Mat and Aviendha.

 

You've already mentioned his "plan" to capture Asmodean which required Lanfear to intercede to help him, how his plan to take out Sammael required Moridin to step in and help him and how his plan to bring Caraline Damodred and Darlan Sisnera to his side leads to Cadsuane and one of the yellows saving his life.

 

Rand is young, overconfident, unwilling to listen to older and wiser heads who urge caution and at times incredibly reckless in attempting half-baked plans.  The best that can be said at times is that he's desperate and trying to work it out as he goes along.

 

On 8/4/2022 at 3:35 AM, aburuq said:

As for Sammael, what was the point of his going to Shadar Logoth to fight Rand there?? 

Thoughts? Lazy writing, or am I missing things? 

Moridin explains that Sammael likes to defeat an enemy at a place important to them, preferably a scene of a triumph they secured or of a great work they achieved.  Rand fashioned something around The Waygate in Shadar Logoth when he visits with the Ogier in Lord of Chaos.  It seems a pretty tenuous connection to me but the location is intended to wrongfoot Rand and keep him off balance while meeting Samamel's requirement.  Irony of ironies, Sammael falls for his own trap and gets killed by Mashadar.

[aburuq]

On 8/6/2022 at 9:07 PM, Stedding Tofu said:

Rand is young, overconfident, unwilling to listen to older and wiser heads who urge caution and at times incredibly reckless in attempting half-baked plans.  The best that can be said at times is that he's desperate and trying to work it out as he goes along.

 

What you say in all this makes sense, but my issue with this particular episode though is that this plan has been endlessly talked about since the beginning of book 6 as something Bashere (one of the greatest living generals) and Mat (embodying the greatest generals of history) concocted as this ingenious master plan to destroy Sammael... but all it ends up being is "send a hundred thousand soldiers to Illian as a diversion." Felt like we readers were the ones fooled more than Sammael.

[DojoToad]

I agree that the build-up was way too long.  Maybe half a book would have been plenty.  Battle itself was still underwhelming.  I understand that things change once the battle is engaged, but also probably my least favorite part of the books after the Shaido/Faile arc.

 

Still my favorite series.  Some parts will be better than others.  Can't all be gold.

[Sabio]

You can't just make city wide trap to kill any male channeler.  Rand knew Sam would have wards in place to detect mail channelers, hence the plan to confuse him.  Don't forget as a male channeler himself Sam can't make ward to kill any male who channels in the city except himself.  Rhavin is a good example, he warded the city and as soon as his wards went off that a male channeled then he attacked.  Rand did learn, by having multiple males channeling at once he made sure Sam couldn't blast him on the spot.  The other goal was to have Sam hopefully tire himself out with his constant attacks on Rands army and the Aiel.

[aburuq]

On 8/6/2022 at 9:07 PM, Stedding Tofu said:

Rand is young, overconfident, unwilling to listen to older and wiser heads who urge caution and at times incredibly reckless in attempting half-baked plans.  The best that can be said at times is that he's desperate and trying to work it out as he goes along

To your point here again...just had a great further illustration of this in getting to the end of Winters Heart. It was really awesome to see Rand's team of Cadsuane and co kick the Forsaken's asses and either kill them or send them running. But it becomes clear how Rand's original plan would have ended with a very quick death indeed. His and Nyneaves channeling is literally a beacon for all the forsaken around the world and they would easily have been able to come kill him, with 0 defense. For some reason he thinks of this problem in relation to the renegade asha'man and sets up this elaborate plot to lure them to far madding and kill them there, but doesn't seem to think it's a problem with the forsaken. If Cadsuane and her party didn't just happen to show up and agree to come with him, would have ended in disaster. Really leaves you feeling that his confidence and sense of being so clever is really misplaced. Situation makes it seem that he really just went after the asha'man mainly because he's pissed they tried to kill him, rather than as a precaution.

[JohnKlein94]

On 8/7/2022 at 4:07 AM, Stedding Tofu said:

 

Absolutely. 

 

1. Rand duels Ishamael at Falme but has no plan other than to sheathe the sword in his own body to allow him a clean strike to "end" him.  He still thinks he's fighting The Dark One at this point.

 

2.  Rand goes to Tear to learn definitively whether he is The Dragon Reborn or just a "false dragon on Tar Valon strings".  Not only does he allow himself to be manipulated by one of The Forasken but he falls straight into Bel'als's trap and has to have his bacon saved by Moiraine.

 

3.  He travels from Tear to Rhuidean on the hunch that he can find a portal stone near tear and somehow work out to use it properly and that his angreal will have enough strength to allow him to transport everyone.  Ta'veren or lucky luck (Mat chooses the symbol for him IIRC) it works - barely.

 

4. He launches his strike on Caemlyn in a cold fury after learning of Morgase's apparent death and after Moiraine appeared to sacrifice herself to kill Lanfear because he wouldn't strike at a woman only to see Mat and Aviendha killed by Rahvin.  He follows Rahvin into Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh and gets bested until Nynaeve rescues him by semi-roasting Rahvin and Rand finishes him off with balefire, so bringing back Mat and Aviendha.

 

You've already mentioned his "plan" to capture Asmodean which required Lanfear to intercede to help him, how his plan to take out Sammael required Moridin to step in and help him and how his plan to bring Caraline Damodred and Darlan Sisnera to his side leads to Cadsuane and one of the yellows saving his life.

 

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Rand is young, overconfident, unwilling to listen to older and wiser heads who urge caution and at times incredibly reckless in attempting half-baked plans.  The best that can be said at times is that he's desperate and trying to work it out as he goes along.

 

Moridin explains that Sammael likes to defeat an enemy at a place important to them, preferably a scene of a triumph they secured or of a great work they achieved.  Rand fashioned something around The Waygate in Shadar Logoth when he visits with the Ogier in Lord of Chaos.  It seems a pretty tenuous connection to me but the location is intended to wrongfoot Rand and keep him off balance while meeting Samamel's requirement.  Irony of ironies, Sammael falls for his own trap and gets killed by Mashadar.

I need to reread it urgently, I was beginning to forget the plot completely!

Edited April 30, 2023 by JohnKlein94