Towers at midnight

[Asthereal]

3 hours ago, Andra said:

I wouldn't call it a spoiler so much as simply a missed reference.

Both Isam and Luc are mentioned in book 1.  They are explicitly connected (in the Dark Prophecy) early in book 2.  Perrin encounters them both - one in the Wolf Dream and the other in real life by name - in book 4.  And the character explicitly calls Rand his nephew in book 9.

By the time you get to Towers of Midnight, it should already be clear who Slayer's two parts are.

 

Yeah, you're right. Except for that last bit. This kind of foreshadowing only works in shorter succession, say: within one book. If I have to wait four books for the next reference, I will have forgotten about it, and with me most of the readers. So I would rephrase that sentence: by Towers of Midnight it could be clear who the two parts of Slayer are. ? 

 

It wasn't clear to me at all until I stumbled upon it online and re-read the dark prophecy bit in book 2. And I guess these kinds of things are what makes WoT interesting in rereads. By then you know the story, so suddenly those early references start to stand out.

[Andra]

1 hour ago, Asthereal said:

 

Yeah, you're right. Except for that last bit. This kind of foreshadowing only works in shorter succession, say: within one book. If I have to wait four books for the next reference, I will have forgotten about it, and with me most of the readers. So I would rephrase that sentence: by Towers of Midnight it could be clear who the two parts of Slayer are. ? 

 

It wasn't clear to me at all until I stumbled upon it online and re-read the dark prophecy bit in book 2. And I guess these kinds of things are what makes WoT interesting in rereads. By then you know the story, so suddenly those early references start to stand out.

I think my first time through, it clicked when Perrin shot Slayer in the Wolf Dream, and "Lord Luc" fled the Winespring in the middle of the night clutching a belly wound.  At least, it clicked that Slayer and Luc were the same person.

But with the Trollocs shouting "ISAM!" during the final attack - and Verin remarking on the fact - the whole thing fell into place.  If Isam (who had fled with his mother into the Blight before Malkier fell) was there in the Two Rivers, the Luc that he was connected to must be the same "Lord Luc" that was also there.   Who must be the Luc Mantear that had gone to the Blight just before his sister Tigraine disappeared from Caemlyn.

 

Luc and Isam both there after being linked by the Dark Prophecy?  With Luc being injured in the waking world after Slayer is shot in the Dream?  Luc, Isam and Slayer are all parts of a whole.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Andra

[Andra]

There are definitely things that people miss the first time through the books.  There are definitely things I missed the first time through.

For some reason, this wasn't one of them.

[Stedding Tofu]

1 hour ago, Andra said:

Luc and Isam both there after being linked by the Dark Prophecy?  With Luc being injured in the waking world after Slayer is shot in the Dream?  Luc, Isam and Slayer are all parts of a whole.

 

I agree with this but on a first read through it might not jump out and what does jump out is still confusing.  The clues are there, sometimes many books apart, but

Spoiler

we have no precedent for one person with two souls so it's a headscratcher early on.  Luc and Slayer are linked and the Trollocs bellow "ISAM" seemingly tying them all together in TSR.  I worked on the assumption that Luc was in the real world but appeared in TAR  in the flesh as Slayer, Slayer simply being what the wolves call Isam.  Based on the rules of the world as we understand them that should be impossible so it's easy to question or discount (or forget) that interpretation.

 

But then we got a Luc pov in WH where he specifically mentions that it was Isam who killed Amico Nagoyin and Joiya Byir in The Stone of Tear.  So if Isam can step out of TAR and act - and not become Luc in the process - I don't know how to view Luc/Isam.  Like Mashadar or Padan Fain it has dramatic and narrative purpose but doesn't quite seem to fit the rules.

 

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, Andra said:

There are definitely things that people miss the first time through the books.  There are definitely things I missed the first time through.

For some reason, this wasn't one of them.

I missed this through several read throughs - and it did not diminish my enjoyment of the books.  Good to know for my next time through...

[Asthereal]

4 hours ago, Andra said:

I think my first time through, it clicked when Perrin shot Slayer in the Wolf Dream, and "Lord Luc" fled the Winespring in the middle of the night clutching a belly wound.  At least, it clicked that Slayer and Luc were the same person.

But with the Trollocs shouting "ISAM!" during the final attack - and Verin remarking on the fact - the whole thing fell into place.  If Isam (who had fled with his mother into the Blight before Malkier fell) was there in the Two Rivers, the Luc that he was connected to must be the same "Lord Luc" that was also there.   Who must be the Luc Mantear that had gone to the Blight just before his sister Tigraine disappeared from Caemlyn.

 

Luc and Isam both there after being linked by the Dark Prophecy?  With Luc being injured in the waking world after Slayer is shot in the Dream?  Luc, Isam and Slayer are all parts of a whole.

 

The Luc fleeing the scene after Perrin shot Slayer in the wolf dream part I got. The trollocks shouting Isam I missed. And by then I had forgotten about the dark prophecy from the start of book 2.

Perhaps I was also hampered by the fact that I switched from Dutch to English for book 4 onwards.

You'll cry if you see my WoT collection. ?

[DojoToad]

18 hours ago, Asthereal said:

 

The Luc fleeing the scene after Perrin shot Slayer in the wolf dream part I got. The trollocks shouting Isam I missed. And by then I had forgotten about the dark prophecy from the start of book 2.

Perhaps I was also hampered by the fact that I switched from Dutch to English for book 4 onwards.

You'll cry if you see my WoT collection. ?

Yes.  I definitely got the Slayer/Luc thing in the Two Rivers without issue - couldn't have been any clearer.  I never caught on to how they tied into Isam.

Edited May 4, 2022 by DojoToad

[Pembie]

Does a dream spike trap you to one area of a dream? Or is that the dome that does that suddenly gone very strange.

 

Gaywn seen Egwene in the her bedroom before he fights the blood knifes but Egwene is being warned to stay safe but Perrin I take it the wolf dream is Egwenes dream world too

[Andra]

7 hours ago, Asthereal said:

Perhaps I was also hampered by the fact that I switched from Dutch to English for book 4 onwards.

You'll cry if you see my WoT collection. ?

I can imagine how that might have cause some, uh ...

...difficulties.

?

[Andra]

2 hours ago, Pembie said:

Does a dream spike trap you to one area of a dream? Or is that the dome that does that suddenly gone very strange.

 

Gaywn seen Egwene in the her bedroom before he fights the blood knifes but Egwene is being warned to stay safe but Perrin I take it the wolf dream is Egwenes dream world too

A Dreamspike prevents you from leaping in the dream, but you can move through the dome.   Which is painful.  And draining.  If you remain in contact with the dome too long, it would likely be fatal.

 

It also prevents Traveling in the waking world - which is primarily what it's used for.

 

When Perrin sees Egwene, they are both in Tel'aran'rhiod - which Perrin knows as the "Wolf Dream."  Yes, they are the same thing.

[Andra]

11 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

I agree with this but on a first read through it might not jump out and what does jump out is still confusing.  The clues are there, sometimes many books apart, but

  Hide contents

we have no precedent for one person with two souls so it's a headscratcher early on.  Luc and Slayer are linked and the Trollocs bellow "ISAM" seemingly tying them all together in TSR.  I worked on the assumption that Luc was in the real world but appeared in TAR  in the flesh as Slayer, Slayer simply being what the wolves call Isam.  Based on the rules of the world as we understand them that should be impossible so it's easy to question or discount (or forget) that interpretation.

 

But then we got a Luc pov in WH where he specifically mentions that it was Isam who killed Amico Nagoyin and Joiya Byir in The Stone of Tear.  So if Isam can step out of TAR and act - and not become Luc in the process - I don't know how to view Luc/Isam.  Like Mashadar or Padan Fain it has dramatic and narrative purpose but doesn't quite seem to fit the rules.

 

It's true that neither Jordan nor Sanderson ever explain how it works, or how it happened in the first place.  Or whether Slayer gained his ability in the World of Dreams in the process or already had it.

 

I suspect that the way it happened has something to do with the line in the Dark Prophecy - "One did live, and one did die, but both are."

[Pembie]

4 hours ago, Andra said:

I can imagine how that might have cause some, uh ...

...difficulties.

?

Do you like the show 

[Andra]

59 minutes ago, Pembie said:

Do you like the show 

Not as much as I wished.

I am disappointed in several aspects of the show, but watched all of season 1, and will probably at least watch the first few episodes of season 2.

[Asthereal]

16 hours ago, Andra said:

I can imagine how that might have cause some, uh ...

...difficulties.

?

 

Actually the switch felt quite natural. But some of the smaller stuff may have gotten "lost in translation". ? 

 

But on topic: the Dreamspike creates a dome in the dreamworld within which you cannot shift (will yourself) to a location outside that dome. You can physically force yourself through the edge of the dome, but you'll get a severe headache and feel dizzy for a while. It also (mostly) stops Traveling in the real world, as Andra mentioned.

 

How the Dreamspike works will be described in more detail in book 14, if I recall correctly.

[Pembie]

12 hours ago, Andra said:

Not as much as I wished.

I am disappointed in several aspects of the show, but watched all of season 1, and will probably at least watch the first few episodes of season 2.

It’s a very hard story to write for tv I would think they said today there will be more changes for season two 

[Andra]

4 hours ago, Pembie said:

It’s a very hard story to write for tv I would think they said today there will be more changes for season two 

And the concern people have is that those changes will be like the changes made in season 1, only more so.  Which would mean that by the end of season 2, the story will have virtually nothing to do with the books.

[DojoToad]

On 5/4/2022 at 3:57 PM, Andra said:

And the concern people have is that those changes will be like the changes made in season 1, only more so.  Which would mean that by the end of season 2, the story will have virtually nothing to do with the books.

S1 was so loosely based on the books as to be barely recognizable.  Add to that the poor writing, creative choices, and production quality... 

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by DojoToad

[Pembie]

I wish Perrin would have been this interesting from the start I don’t really get th point of his story with Mesmea the guy he was taking back to Rand

 

But Perrins whole like purpose of the story seems to be cramped into this book I like him much better now but I only have a book and bit to go now haha

 

Next book to people read the last battle in one go my Kindle says it will take me six hours to read that chapter I must be a very slow reader

[DojoToad]

20 minutes ago, Pembie said:

I wish Perrin would have been this interesting from the start I don’t really get th point of his story with Mesmea the guy he was taking back to Rand

 

But Perrins whole like purpose of the story seems to be cramped into this book I like him much better now but I only have a book and bit to go now haha

 

Next book to people read the last battle in one go my Kindle says it will take me six hours to read that chapter I must be a very slow reader

He did languish for quite a while.

[Stedding Tofu]

18 hours ago, Pembie said:

Next book to people read the last battle in one go my Kindle says it will take me six hours to read that chapter I must be a very slow reader

 

That chapter is over 200 pages.  Don't do what I did and try and read it in one night ?

[Pembie]

2 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

That chapter is over 200 pages.  Don't do what I did and try and read it in one night ?

Six hours I would still be reading when the birds start to sing the next morning 

 

I don’t really understand these Visions that Aviendha is having Doesn’t she already know that the Aeil weren’t always peaceful or is it just Rand who knows why is it important now for her to know with the last battle coming 

[Asthereal]

On 5/7/2022 at 6:14 PM, Pembie said:

Next book to people read the last battle in one go my Kindle says it will take me six hours to read that chapter I must be a very slow reader

 

I read that chapter in three parts and regretted it later. I recommend you plan ahead and make sure you have a weekend day where you don't need to do anything, and just start at like 11AM and take your time to read it in one go. The Last Battle really benefits from reading in one sitting.

 

Though I have to say: reading it in three parts was still a pleasure. Great bit of writing, that was.

 

EDIT: Don't worry about being a slow reader. You get more entertainment out of the same book than others do. I too read rather slowly, but if it takes me five more hours to read a book, I just consider it five hours of extra entertainment for free. ? 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Asthereal

[Stedding Tofu]

On 5/8/2022 at 2:48 PM, Pembie said:

I don’t really understand these Visions that Aviendha is having Doesn’t she already know that the Aeil weren’t always peaceful or is it just Rand who knows why is it important now for her to know with the last battle coming 

 

She has to do this to become a Wise One.  Until she does she is still an apprentice.  It's her final test.

 

On her first passage through the glass columns she sees visions of the past through the eyes of her ancestors.  Every Wise One and Clan Chief knows and sees what she sees, including Rand.  Rand revealed to the Aiel at Al'cair Dal at the end of TSR (Book4) that they followed The Way of The Leaf (pacifism and the rejection of any form of violence even in self-defence) so they all have some idea but seeing it in detail is something else.

 

But Aviendha goes through twice.  She touches the ter'angreal to try and discover how it works (she has a talent for determining what ter'angreal do) , receives a vision, becomes disoriented and tries to turn away but instead goes through again.  The second time she sees visions of the (or a potential) future through the eyes of her descendants.