Is tv incompatible with epic fantasy?

[AdamA]

I was going to make a point similar to this the other day in some other thread. Some satisfying version of a fantastic tale can certainly be told in the span of 64 episodes if that's really what they end up getting, but I don't think Wheel of Time as we know it really can be. And I don't think there's space in television as a medium right now for much more than that. The future of truly expansive stories seems to be largely episodic in nature, with shared cinematic universes involving changing casts. The Walking Dead was probably the last series we'll see for a while to really try to do more than 10 seasons, and it didn't work out well. They lost virtually the entire original cast by the end of it. Changed showrunners multiple times. Creatives just don't want to be tied to a single property that demands that much of their lives for over a decade.

 

I'm still enjoying this show more than not, but books are simply a better medium for something of this scale. I don't expect it to match, and hopefully that allows me to enjoy it that much more because I'm not expecting it to match. There are things television and film can do better than books. Someone mentioned earlier the staging of large battle scenes. I actually think The Band of Brothers miniseries comes off even better than the book, for basically that reason. You can't really describe that level of horror and magnitude of death, but you can show it. But for sheer storytelling, the space that books give you can't be matched.

 

In that sense, I'm possibly more hopeful about something like House of the Dragon. It's just Succession in a medieval setting, if you got rid of rule of law and the aggrieved parties could kill each other with dragonfire. It's short, doesn't have too gigantic a cast. It's a story I think television can definitely do well, and HBO has a history doing well with similar stories.

 

There is no precedent for anyone even trying to adapt something like Wheel of Time. I'm not sure there even is anything else like Wheel of Time. I think and hope they can still make a satisfying and maybe even great at some point show, but they're not going to be able to capture everything that is in the books. Maybe they can try to take the approach Netflix is taking with The Witcher with all the between-seasons companion movies and cartoon extras, but even that is backstory and additional worldbuilding. There isn't much precedent for taking main story and offloading it to optional extra material with different cast and crew. The Star Wars prequels doing it with Clone Wars and some of the Animatrix stuff filling in holes between Matrix and Matrix: Reloaded is all I can think of. But I'm guessing fans would riot if you did that with established IP as opposed to an original story.

[Mailman]

30 minutes ago, AdamA said:

I was going to make a point similar to this the other day in some other thread. Some satisfying version of a fantastic tale can certainly be told in the span of 64 episodes if that's really what they end up getting, but I don't think Wheel of Time as we know it really can be. And I don't think there's space in television as a medium right now for much more than that. The future of truly expansive stories seems to be largely episodic in nature, with shared cinematic universes involving changing casts. The Walking Dead was probably the last series we'll see for a while to really try to do more than 10 seasons, and it didn't work out well. They lost virtually the entire original cast by the end of it. Changed showrunners multiple times. Creatives just don't want to be tied to a single property that demands that much of their lives for over a decade.

 

I'm still enjoying this show more than not, but books are simply a better medium for something of this scale. I don't expect it to match, and hopefully that allows me to enjoy it that much more because I'm not expecting it to match. There are things television and film can do better than books. Someone mentioned earlier the staging of large battle scenes. I actually think The Band of Brothers miniseries comes off even better than the book, for basically that reason. You can't really describe that level of horror and magnitude of death, but you can show it. But for sheer storytelling, the space that books give you can't be matched.

 

In that sense, I'm possibly more hopeful about something like House of the Dragon. It's just Succession in a medieval setting, if you got rid of rule of law and the aggrieved parties could kill each other with dragonfire. It's short, doesn't have too gigantic a cast. It's a story I think television can definitely do well, and HBO has a history doing well with similar stories.

 

There is no precedent for anyone even trying to adapt something like Wheel of Time. I'm not sure there even is anything else like Wheel of Time. I think and hope they can still make a satisfying and maybe even great at some point show, but they're not going to be able to capture everything that is in the books. Maybe they can try to take the approach Netflix is taking with The Witcher with all the between-seasons companion movies and cartoon extras, but even that is backstory and additional worldbuilding. There isn't much precedent for taking main story and offloading it to optional extra material with different cast and crew. The Star Wars prequels doing it with Clone Wars and some of the Animatrix stuff filling in holes between Matrix and Matrix: Reloaded is all I can think of. But I'm guessing fans would riot if you did that with established IP as opposed to an original story.

come on have faith

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[Theseus78]

20 hours ago, UOweTamASword said:

You're the one "moving the goalposts" or just not reading what I said. I said they haven't thought things out as far as Jordan did. Note the emphasis. Not that they haven't thought things out at all. Two very different measures.

That's simply silly.  They've thought it out to the end of the story, same as Jordan.

[Guest Testeria]

On 12/21/2021 at 6:36 AM, TheChief said:

Why would the WoT universe  have barriers to women being blacksmith’s if they wanted to?

 

Simply because stronger blacksmith would be more efficient and run them out of business.

 

[Skipp]

12 minutes ago, Testeria said:

 

Simply because stronger blacksmith would be more efficient and run them out of business.

 

Skill is more important than strength.  Unless you mean that the stronger blacksmith literally carries the weaker blacksmith out of town.

[Guest Testeria]

On 12/20/2021 at 10:21 PM, king of nowhere said:

Other tv adaptation of epic fantasy suffer from the same issues. The witcher has much sketchier worldbuilding than the books, and it's already much easier to adapt because it has less characters. LotR has virtually no worldbuilding, just a bunch of elements that are randomly introduced in the plot; there's very little of the vast world created by Tolkien. Can't speak for GoT because I didn't watch it, but I bet it had the same issues with streamlining storylines. Harry Potter doesn't count, it's got a small cast of characters and world, it's a different kind of fantasy.

Epic fantasy is founded on three main points: a large, extensive, detailed world. Lots of characters. A complex storyline.

 

There is really no problem with any of this. Just look at Expanse: large, extensive, detailed world. Lots of characters. A complex story-line. And excellent TV show, true to the books.

 

The main problem with holywood's screen adaptations is that writers just have too much hubris. They know better so they do not even try.

 

I just started reading TEotW. Jordan put a lot of effort to portrait small, isolated, organized community with common descent. It is obvious when You read it. They know each other. They help each other. They work together. They look the same, except for the Rand who is a little different. Does anything of that survived to the TV show? Not at all. They look probably more like New York neighborhood and all of them probably have internet access in their huts.

 

I don't know yet if it is important in the books. But it is there and it could easily be in the TV show (LotR Shire is one example). When on screen characters are bored by Tar Valon I'm less excited either: it is just another city. And then another. And another. Hard to build any world on that.

 

Most of the best books and movies grows from exceptional attention to details. someone on this forum pointed to "the last of the Mohicans" and it is perfect example. I just do not see that in the show. I like it, it is fun, I will watch it. But it is just another American fantasy TV series, nothing that stands out.

 

 

 

[Guest Testeria]

9 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Skill is more important than strength.  Unless you mean that the stronger blacksmith literally carries the weaker blacksmith out of town.

 

For the artistic blacksmith - sure. For a village blacksmith - not really. Have You ever tried to make a horseshoe or a simple knife? You need to know what You are doing but it is not that difficult. ? But You do need strength.

[Skipp]

8 minutes ago, Testeria said:

 

There is really no problem with any of this. Just look at Expanse: large, extensive, detailed world. Lots of characters. A complex story-line. And excellent TV show, true to the books.

 

The main problem with holywood's screen adaptations is that writers just have too much hubris. They know better so they do not even try.

 

I just started reading TEotW. Jordan put a lot of effort to portrait small, isolated, organized community with common descent. It is obvious when You read it. They know each other. They help each other. They work together. They look the same, except for the Rand who is a little different. Does anything of that survived to the TV show? Not at all. They look probably more like New York neighborhood and all of them probably have internet access in their huts.

 

I don't know yet if it is important in the books. But it is there and it could easily be in the TV show (LotR Shire is one example). When on screen characters are bored by Tar Valon I'm less excited either: it is just another city. And then another. And another. Hard to build any world on that.

 

Most of the best books and movies grows from exceptional attention to details. someone on this forum pointed to "the last of the Mohicans" and it is perfect example. I just do not see that in the show. I like it, it is fun, I will watch it. But it is just another American fantasy TV series, nothing that stands out.

 

 

 

The Two Rivers folk do look alike in the way they are described in the books.  They have a range of skin colour but their common traits are their dark hair and eyes.  Rand stands out because of hie grey eyes, red hair and height. 

 

You need to remember that the people who settled the Two Rivers were the survivors of Mantheran which was a major metropolitan area.  This in also after the Breaking of the world and that the AoL was already a melting pot of societies.

 

If you want some more information on this I highly recommend the youtube video by Daniel Greene and Mat Hatch(Of the Dusty Wheel).  They do a lovely deep dive into Jordans book descriptions and how it relates to the casting of the people of the Two Rivers.

 

7 minutes ago, Testeria said:

 

For the artistic blacksmith - sure. For a village blacksmith - not really. Have You ever tried to make a horseshoe or a simple knife? You need to know what You are doing but it is not that difficult. ? But You do need strength.

 

And in this case Laila looks pretty solidly built, I had no issues with picturing her as a blacksmith.

[Theseus78]

I just assumed Laila started blacksmithing because she married the blacksmith apprentice, not that she was another blacksmith who Perrin happened to marry. 

[JenniferL]

I am going to sign up for blacksmith classes just to prove that women can blacksmith. In the mean time, this thread seems to have outlived its purpose.