How old is Amys anyway?

[Blue]

Melaines marraige to Bael is her first TSR chapter:among the wise ones p127 in my book Bair says "You always said you did not need a husband and did not want one"

 

In the same chapter on the same page there are two references to Melaine being younger then Bair.Bair"I am not so young as the rest of you" and it is said refering to Bair "the older woman settled back". Bair can not channel and she looks old lets say shes 80 if her exact age is mentioned someone can let me know. Anyway bearing that in mind Melaine cant be older than 80 and very probably a whole lot younger.

[cloglord]

Also, how does "You have always said you never wanted a husband, nor needed one" from TSR not read as "Bael is Melaine's first husband?"

 

 

Allright, cloglord, I don't appreciate ad hominems or putdowns by people that don't clearly remember the contents of the story.

 

The quote you referenced is not in TSR. Who doesn't remember what? If you are going to ask a sarcastic question implying that I should remember every single passing comment in nearly 10,000 pages of the books, at least get the damn book right.

 

Melaines marraige to Bael is her first TSR chapter:among the wise ones p127 in my book Bair says "You always said you did not need a husband and did not want one"

 

The Chapter "Among the Wise Ones," is not in TSR its in tFoH

 

I was however proven wrong, both wolfwalker and Elwin were gracious enough to provide the quote that I doubted would come.

 

Bair comments that when she was young, there was a Wise One known as Moira- this is when Egwene was asking about whether it is possible to be pulled into the dream against your will, in LoC- in reference to Gawyn's dreams.

 

Moira told her it had happened to her twice, once with her first husband, and once with a rival for her third husband's interest.

 

Melaine comments that she had learned every tale of Moira AS A GIRL.

 

Bair can't channel. Bair's old. Melaine is no older than at most fifty or sixty, and probably younger than that.

 

 

First of all, Bair is the oldest wiseone of the Shaarad, we know this from TSR ch.28 Lets just say that she's 80, which I think is fair considering that she's outlived 3 husbands. She was trained by Mora,( not Moira BTW) Mora was 300 years old when she died. If Bair was young,(as is stated in LoC,) say 20, and Melaine is a child, say 10, Then Melaine would be 70, signifigantly older than 30. Considering that the Shaido had hundreds of wiseones, many of whom can channel, I think it would be fair to say that the wise ones of the Shaarad would also have a similar number of wiseones. If Bair is the oldest Shaarad wiseone, that makes me think that she is probably even older than 80. According to the BWB, average lifespan of non-channelers during the age of legends was between 150-200. Granted, the waste is much more dangerous and harsh of an evironment than the AoL, but if RJ doesn't have a problem with people living to 200 in ideal circumstances, is 100 out of line here?

 

Further, there is nothing saying that Melaine could not have learned all of the stories about Mora that had occurred up to the point that she was a child. For example, a 150 year old aes sedai could say that they had learned all of the stories about cadsuane as a novice, and still be correct. There were just fewer stories about cadsuane 150 years ago than there are now. As kind of a sidenote, Melaine did not learn every story about Mora, as she clearly did not hear about Mora being pulled into another's dream. The exact quote it, "I have never heard anything like that."

 

Lastly, I'll just say this, I do not nessecarily believe that Melaine is 300 years old. In light of the passages from LoC that BFB brought up,(good one btw,) it seems very unlikely, that is unless Melaine was saying that she had learned stories of a younger Mora as a child. Inversely, it seems unlikely to me that any channeler of above average strength, apparently 30, is actually 30. I think that it would require quite a bit of justification, and am frankly suprised how many people feel that such justification is warranted.

[Beckon]

Try re-reading the thread. Nobody said she was 30. I and others said she could be that young as a means to show you there was no reason to assume she's 300 just because Kirstian is.

 

The quote you referenced is not in TSR. Who doesn't remember what? If you are going to ask a sarcastic question implying that I should remember every single passing comment in nearly 10,000 pages of the books, at least get the damn book right.

 

The point BFB was making there was that you obviously were not clearly remembering the passages of the book which were relevant to the theory you were proposing. Several of them reference Melaine's age and the fact that she has never married. You also doubted the age at which women slow. BFB got his quote right, even if he got the name of the book wrong, which is more than can be said for you. Nobody can be expected to remember everything mentioned in passing in the books. On the other hand, it's pretty obvious a lot of people around here do a lot of research into their pet theories so it's best to make sure you know all your facts before you start accusing others of not knowing what they're talking about.

[BrainFireBob]

Yep.

 

I at least knew the damn quote, even if the Wise One sections of tSR and tFoH blend together a little bit together in my mind, I do remember what's in them.

 

Don't cast stones if you can't back it up. And you lashed into me from the get go- face it, you were out of line. Not my fault your pet theory doesn't fit the books, take it up with Jordan.

[cloglord]

Alright, I can tell that you're mad. But I was not on you from the get go, BFB. Your first post to this thread sarcastically, (at least that's how I read it,) implied that I should have remembered the one time that it was mentioned that Melaine hasd not been married. I think, and still think, that that question's tone was uncalled for. So I went to look it up, and found that the quote you mentioned was not even in the book you quoted. I found that to be hypocrytical, something that I am not overly fond of. I didn't remember the passage, you didn't remember the book, I'm not an idiot you aren't a hypocrite, we're just forgetful. That was my point.

 

Beckon, for the last time, I don't need to re-read the thread, I started it, I've been reading it for some time now. I understand, she doesn't have to be 30. I GET IT. THe point of the thread, and I should know, I started it, was to have a discussion about how old Amys, (and then Melaine,)was. Once we had apparently exhausted the facts I tried to move the discussion to a question of probabilities. You were finally gracious enough to answer the question I posed to you, but it was BFB who actually remembered to back it up. It seemed less likely that Melaine is 300, than it does that she is less than 100, as illustrated by his citation from LoC.

 

you obviously were not clearly remembering the passages of the book which were relevant to the theory you were proposing. Several of them reference Melaine's age and the fact that she has never married. You also doubted the age at which women slow. BFB got his quote right, even if he got the name of the book wrong, which is more than can be said for you. Nobody can be expected to remember everything mentioned in passing in the books. On the other hand, it's pretty obvious a lot of people around here do a lot of research into their pet theories so it's best to make sure you know all your facts before you start accusing others of not knowing what they're talking about.

 

1. I do not, nor have I once, proposed a theory that Melaine was a certain age, my position has been that she is older than 30, based on the likelyhoods I've tried to illustrate. In another thread, I brought up the possibility that if Melaine were older than she appeared, it could help answer the question posed in that thread.

 

2. Several passages do NOT mention Melaine's marital status and age. In 4 pages of postings there has been one fairly obvious passage cited about Melaine's marital status, and one good piece of detective work on BFB's part that helps to narrow down Melaine's age. 2 passages are not several passages. If we've worked this hard to get 2 concrete clues as to Melaine's age then I don't see how this was obvious.

 

3. I have not once misquoted anything on this thread. I have doubted plenty of things. I have asked people to provide accurate sources for their points. I have been forgetful. If I am to be called down for being forgetful then I don't see why BFB can't be called down for misquoting, fair's fair.

 

4. As I said before, not a pet theory, an animated discussion. If I had had all my facts straight, there would have been no need for this thread.

 

Lastly, if all of these passages and facts were so obvious, why didn't you cite them?

[Beckon]

Kirstian is stronger than average for aes sedai' date=' she is at least 300 years old, she appears to be around 30. (This all comes from the beggining of WH.)

 

Melaine is among the strongest wiseones. She appears to be around 30. So why why is it so hard to believe that she is pushing 300? It is a direct and fairly concrete comparison.[/quote']

 

That seems to be you saying Melaine is 300 or nearly. Direct and concrete, you say.

 

Inversely, it seems unlikely to me that any channeler of above average strength, apparently 30, is actually 30. I think that it would require quite a bit of justification, and am frankly suprised how many people feel that such justification is warranted.

 

This is you saying lots of people think she's 30. You do need to reread. I'm not trying to prove to you anymore she's only 30 or could be 30. I grasped that you grasped it the first time you said you grasped it which incidentally wasn't til after you denied the possibility several times in spite of being shown by several people. I'm trying to get you to stop insisting that people are claiming her to be 30. We're not. If you still think we are then yes, you do need to reread the thread.

 

When I brought up the subject of Melaine's marital status I didn't have the books with me. I asked to be corrected if I was wrong which I turned out not to be. You asked for the quote where I was getting the five year number from and I gave it to you. You were the one who started calling into question other people's ability to remember what was in the books.

[BrainFireBob]

Cloglord- *you* read my post as sarcastic.

 

YOU. Regardless of how it was written.

 

Be certain beore leaping off the handle.

[cloglord]

I'm trying to get you to stop insisting that people are claiming her to be 30.

 

I'm not saying that you claim she's thirty. I'm not saying that there are alot of people posting to this forum that believe that she is, (although there are some, Luckers for instance.) I'm just saying that there are a lot of people, in general, who think she is. The point of the thread was to start a discussion, get people to examine what evidence there was, cite the relevant passages, (which was my aim, not calling people's memories into question,) and come to some conclusions. There are a number of people who have weighed in on this thread, stated that they think that Melaine is young, did not cite anything beyond vauge references to slip ups or Melaine acting in a young way. Yes, I do believe that there are a lot of people who believe Melaine is 30, I don't think that you or BFB are among them. You have made this clear. I got it. If others, those who do not post here, read this, think about it, and come to the same conclusion that they had reached before reading this thread, fine. The point was the discussion, not trying to prove a theory right or wrong.

 

I am a stickler for citations. There are too many people on these forums, who spout off from memory, claim to be citing from this source or that, and are frankly full of bull$hit or too lazy to back up what they have to say. Especially when we are having a discussion about something very specific, I think its unproductive, to go back and forth on vauge recollections, or misremeberings. I was not calling into question anyone's memory, mine is as bad as anyone's. I was calling into question people's willingness to step up and show where they are getting their facts. Or, do as you did, and be honest about not having the time/resources to find the relevant part, and ask for help in finding it citing it, or to prove you wrong. In your specific case, I misremembered, others got it right. I was wrong, I thanked those who helped you out, and admitted that I was wrong.

 

As for BFB,

 

 

Sun ages your skin. Ta-da.

 

Also, how does "You have always said you never wanted a husband, nor needed one" from TSR not read as "Bael is Melaine's first husband?"

 

 

 

Cloglord- *you* read my post as sarcastic.

 

YOU. Regardless of how it was written.

 

Be certain beore leaping off the handle.

 

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. If I read it as sarcastic, the most likely reason, to my mind, is that you wrote it sarcastically. I notice you did not say that it was not, and frankly a sarcastic comment was probably warranted considering my tone in response to

 

You cannot use Aes Sedai for comparison.

 

I don't take kindly to people telling me what I can or can't do, especially considering that I had compared aspects of aes sedai unrelated to their rate of age, and considering that I don't really have any experience carrying on a discourse with you. If RAW or Luckers had said it, I probaly would have responded in a different fashion, not assumed that you were some, "Damn kid," and given you the benefit of the doubt. I didn't give you the benefit of the doubt, because frankly, I've been disapointed by many of my first experiences with some of the posters to this board. A few people on this board have earned my respect, I think that I can add you and Beckon to my list. I promise that I won't think you're a jerk, if you think that you can do the same for me.

 

Same goes for you Beckon. You're not a jerk and I'm not stupid, sound good?

 

I think that this thread is pretty well frayed out, I think I'll go and start a new one on Cadsuane.

[Beckon]

The reason I'm objecting to your complaints about citations was that you ( I don't remember if you posted the actual quote) took one reference (that of Kirstian's age/appearance) and completely overlooked other references that were relevant. Within this thread there was pretty much a consensus that Melaine isn't centuries old. You claimed she could be 300, which strictly speaking is true, but nobody remembered any reference indicating her being that old. We remembered things that made her seem younger and we quoted them (where it wasn't quoted there were several people who remembered it the same way) while you provided no reference to support she was hundreds of years old, other than Kirstian.

 

There are a handful of people on this board who I know have read the books extremely thoroughly and can usually be trusted to remember things accurately. Unless I specifically remember something differently I usually take those people at their word. If they're wrong you can be pretty sure one of the others will call them on it and they'll accept the correction graciously.

 

/shrug

We all got a tad defensive there, but we kind of have a thing about ad hominem (basically attempting to dicredit an argument by criticizing the person making it) around here lol. Moral of the story I guess is you gotta make sure you cover all your bases or people will pounce on you.

[BrainFireBob]

*shrug* I can handle that.

 

Over the years, time permitting, I've been part of the Jordan online fan communties since around 92 or so. Used to be a member of this site years ago. I've read the books an ungodly number of times- fact is, anymore I reread by plot, instead of by book, which is why I meshed in my head tSR and tFoH- with some thought, I could have quoted the text near letter-perfect, but nailing down the chapter and book can be difficult after so many "meshed" re-reads.

 

Anyone else remember Forsaken.net and the Asmodean BBS- or when the Usenet group started? Or when they had the first Darkfriend social- I was way too young, but I recall it being still hotly discussed when I joined online fandom.