Will Rand Die?

[Dagon Thyne]

I have always thought that the Last Battle will somehow involve Rand's death, at least to a point. One of the prophesies says, "To live you must die...". I think that this refers to Rand's link with Moridin. Rand will kill Moridin and thus part of himself, because their threads are intertwined. He will end up killing part of himself, perhaps his ability to channel, or some of his memories(Simular to what happened to Matt).

[Terez]

I have always thought that the Last Battle will somehow involve Rand's death, at least to a point. One of the prophesies says, "To live you must die...". I think that this refers to Rand's link with Moridin. Rand will kill Moridin and thus part of himself, because their threads are intertwined. He will end up killing part of himself, perhaps his ability to channel, or some of his memories(Simular to what happened to Matt).

There are four separate prophecies stating that Rand will die. One of them refers to Rand who 'is dead, yet lives'. His body (not Moridin's) is on a boat, and his three women are there. It's pretty certain he's going to die, no matter how much that bothers some people. I suggest checking out the Blood on the Rocks page in the FAQ link in my sig. There are many relevant prophecies.

[Luckers]

Yup. Also check out the bodyswap theory in my faq--whether you buy my theory or not, it contains coverage of the prophecies surrounding Rand's death--at the point, however it is he comes to live again, he does have to die. A simple faked death, or everyone thinking he's dead, will not cover it.

[Terez]

We should go find Etzel (from rafo.com) and argue him down on that point. He's the only major fandom theorist who still supports the faked death scenario that I know of, and I'm like....really??

[hazelkrs1]

We should go find Etzel (from rafo.com) and argue him down on that point. He's the only major fandom theorist who still supports the faked death scenario that I know of, and I'm like....really??

 

One question: how long before I can be considered a major fandom theorist? I want that lofty title!

[Terez]

You have to be so good that even Brandon thinks you're 'too clever'. (Really, I was just thinking of theorists who regularly convince people by reputation alone...but that is of course not necessarily a good thing.)

[hazelkrs1]

You have to be so good that even Brandon thinks you're 'too clever'. (Really, I was just thinking of theorists who regularly convince people by reputation alone...but that is of course not necessarily a good thing.)

 

I plan on pulling a fast one on Brandon during the Magic game I hope to get to play with him at the next JordanCon I got too, that's how I'll get him to say I'm "too clever" . It is amazing though, at the reputation you, Luckers, Maj, and a couple of other HCFF's have.

[Terez]

Nobody knows who Majsju is outside DM.

[mackoY-kun]

probably not. egwene had a dream of seeing rand in a coffin of sorts and logain stepping over him to a black block. but after, his supposed "body" is like "paper" or a husk, and is empty.

[Terez]

As I recall, both Luckers and I believe that signifies that his death is not permanent. The way I see it, Rand will die before saving the world, and everyone will think they are screwed. Logain will step up to become leader of the Asha'man. Then Rand will be resurrected (in a different body by being ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod by Nynaeve). The way Luckers sees it, Rand dies but then steals Moridin's body. I think my theory fits better with the boat prophecy, especially considering that the three women will need to bond him (again) to save him like Elayne saved Birgitte. But Luckers obviously disagrees.

[Raistlin]

I think a better Question is when will Rand die? I read Terez's theory on theoryland boards. Don't agree with it all. I think he will die early. I think he has to for the Story to work.

[Terez]

I think a better Question is when will Rand die? I read Terez's theory on theoryland boards. Don't agree with it all.

Are you going to make an argument against it, or just state your opinion?

 

I think he will die early. I think he has to for the Story to work.

Agreed.

[Luckers]

To be clear, I believe Rand will swap bodies with Moridin, and that Moridin-in-Rand's-body will be killed by Alivia and Rand-in-Moridin's body. Alivia will have 'helped Rand die'(helped Rand kill Rand's body), Rand will be both dead and alive at the same time (dead, yet lives--hs body dead, whilst his soul lives on, which by the way the term dead is applied in the context of the Wheel, works).

[Raistlin]

I think a better Question is when will Rand die? I read Terez's theory on theoryland boards. Don't agree with it all.

Are you going to make an argument against it, or just state your opinion?

 

I think he will die early. I think he has to for the Story to work.

Agreed.

My opinion only. Too much work to go through and find things to just punch wholes in what you worked on. It seems to me to be close. I think a bit of it is right and a bit seems off timing mainly i think he maygo to face the darkone early and most of the last battle may happen after that. Facing the darkone is the key but it is not the end everything dont dissappear if Rand wins. So if Rand dies and seals darkone we stilll have a whole last battle still in place. I just cant belive that Rand is only part for last battle.

[hazelkrs1]

To be clear, I believe Rand will swap bodies with Moridin, and that Moridin-in-Rand's-body will be killed by Alivia and Rand-in-Moridin's body. Alivia will have 'helped Rand die'(helped Rand kill Rand's body), Rand will be both dead and alive at the same time (dead, yet lives--hs body dead, whilst his soul lives on, which by the way the term dead is applied in the context of the Wheel, works).

 

The way that I differ with the body swap theory is that I believe that Rand, Alivia, or anyone else besides maybe Min won't have any clue that a body swap is possible, so instead of Alivia helping Rand kill Moridin in Rand's body, I believe she helps kill Rand in Moridin's body, along with some combination of either Narishma, Nyneave, Logain, and Moiraine. It's not clear whether she will know that she is killing Rand by doing this, but it will be necessary for the Light to win. Nice thing about my take on the body swap: you get the body swap part, but you also get Rand pulled from TAR and bonded by 3 women thing. I call it my "Teruckers compromise"

[Terez]

To be clear, I believe Rand will swap bodies with Moridin, and that Moridin-in-Rand's-body will be killed by Alivia and Rand-in-Moridin's body. Alivia will have 'helped Rand die'(helped Rand kill Rand's body), Rand will be both dead and alive at the same time (dead, yet lives--hs body dead, whilst his soul lives on, which by the way the term dead is applied in the context of the Wheel, works).

Ah. I think I keep blocking it out of my mind because I like to pretend you have a scenario in which Rand actually dies.

 

To be clear, I believe Rand will swap bodies with Moridin, and that Moridin-in-Rand's-body will be killed by Alivia and Rand-in-Moridin's body. Alivia will have 'helped Rand die'(helped Rand kill Rand's body), Rand will be both dead and alive at the same time (dead, yet lives--hs body dead, whilst his soul lives on, which by the way the term dead is applied in the context of the Wheel, works).

 

The way that I differ with the body swap theory is that I believe that Rand, Alivia, or anyone else besides maybe Min won't have any clue that a body swap is possible, so instead of Alivia helping Rand kill Moridin in Rand's body, I believe she helps kill Rand in Moridin's body, along with some combination of either Narishma, Nyneave, Logain, and Moiraine. It's not clear whether she will know that she is killing Rand by doing this, but it will be necessary for the Light to win. Nice thing about my take on the body swap: you get the body swap part, but you also get Rand pulled from TAR and bonded by 3 women thing. I call it my "Teruckers compromise"

I think a swap pre-death is possible, but a merge is much more likely - as in, Rand has been becoming more and more like Moridin all this time, and he doesn't seem to realize it. So there's nothing in that to me that suggests a body swap at all. Min says they will merge, not swap.

[Finnssss22]

Rand figures out how to actually kill the DO, tells Mordy about his plan. Mordy, who went to the Shadow in the first place because he wants to have finality to his endless cycle (after all, he seems to be the only one that realises that the DO winning means everything ends).

Knowing now that he can end his cycle without the DO winning, he agrees to Rand's plan and willingly swaps bodies to carry it out. (Rand's conversation with Moridin in the "dream" seems to be, IMO, foreshadowing of Moridin's turning.)

Rand then uses the taint of SL, after previously acquiring the dagger from Fain after Perrin killed him, to "infect" the DO through Shadar Haran and destroy him. (Yes, I have no doubt in my mind that it will be Perrin, who kills Fain.)

 

 

Just spit ballin here

[mackoY-kun]

A lot of RJ's special events in WoT are mostly taken from other written stuff that are well known.

ie Callandor, mat=odin, perrin+hopper=thor+fenrir, born by a maiden = virgin mary birth of jesus, and so on...

 

So, I'm betting that the scenario with Rands death will be like that of jesus' death on the cross and resurrection after several days, but slightly altered. But I have no idea how he altered it.

see, "drawn sword from stone" by king arthur story, becomes "take sword not sword from the fortress called stone".

and, "odin gives up eye for wisdom and knowledge", mat got the "wisdom and knowledge" first and gave up his eye for something else, moraine.

[Luckers]

To be clear, I believe Rand will swap bodies with Moridin, and that Moridin-in-Rand's-body will be killed by Alivia and Rand-in-Moridin's body. Alivia will have 'helped Rand die'(helped Rand kill Rand's body), Rand will be both dead and alive at the same time (dead, yet lives--hs body dead, whilst his soul lives on, which by the way the term dead is applied in the context of the Wheel, works).

 

The way that I differ with the body swap theory is that I believe that Rand, Alivia, or anyone else besides maybe Min won't have any clue that a body swap is possible, so instead of Alivia helping Rand kill Moridin in Rand's body, I believe she helps kill Rand in Moridin's body, along with some combination of either Narishma, Nyneave, Logain, and Moiraine. It's not clear whether she will know that she is killing Rand by doing this, but it will be necessary for the Light to win. Nice thing about my take on the body swap: you get the body swap part, but you also get Rand pulled from TAR and bonded by 3 women thing. I call it my "Teruckers compromise"

 

Come on, the old motief works easy enough. "Yo 'Liv! You like Cat's Cradle, and remember that time you showed up Cadsuane with the flies. Good times, good times. Now lets go open a can of whoopass!"

 

I've said before that I don't love the body swap, though I think it the most applicable based on the prescriptions laid down in prophecy, but the one part I do like is this element, consider...

 

Moridin stared into the Dragon's face--his own face, in truth. At least it had been, for a time. Al'thor held the shield, but it was the woman who stepped up to him.

 

"Please," he said quietly--not begging, reasoning. "Please, I can give you anything you want. I can make of you a Queen to rule the world."

 

The faint lines around the woman's eyes crinkled as she smiled. "For four hundred years I lived as an animal, leashed. Four hundred years, until a man freed me. A man with a face very like your own. And so you see, there is nothing left for you to give me, that has not already been given."

 

 

Ah. I think I keep blocking it out of my mind because I like to pretend you have a scenario in which Rand actually dies

 

Eh. I don't think it's a huge stretch to link death to the physical body--certainly the Forsaken do so, despite retaining the overall cohesion of their personality. Mat 'died', but is still what who he was. In a world were personality persists, the word death is inextricably linked to the body.

 

I think a swap pre-death is possible, but a merge is much more likely - as in, Rand has been becoming more and more like Moridin all this time, and he doesn't seem to realize it. So there's nothing in that to me that suggests a body swap at all. Min says they will merge, not swap.

 

I see that as Rand and Lews Therin. As Semirhage stated, intergration is the cure to such situations, and that is what we see in tGS no matter what you believe about Lews Therin's nature--Rand intergrated, Lews Therin is gone, Rand persists, Min's viewing in a nutshell.

[Terez]

Ah. I think I keep blocking it out of my mind because I like to pretend you have a scenario in which Rand actually dies

Eh. I don't think it's a huge stretch to link death to the physical body--certainly the Forsaken do so, despite retaining the overall cohesion of their personality.

Yes, but all of them were actually in their bodies when they died. That's a little different.

 

As Semirhage stated, intergration is the cure to such situations, and that is what we see in tGS no matter what you believe about Lews Therin's nature--Rand intergrated, Lews Therin is gone, Rand persists, Min's viewing in a nutshell.

Min's viewing said 'another man', and Rand said they were 'not two men', and also, Lews Therin didn't 'die' in any way when the memories were integrated. If anything, his personality is more dominant than ever before. Some have argued that Rand is the one who died, but if that's the case, then the shepherd who was Rand al'Thor died a long time ago - not on Dragonmount. Also, the wording of Min's viewing - specifically 'touch' and 'merge' - is consistent with Rand's description of the link between himself and Moridin and the wording of the foreshadowing of a merge between Rand and Ishamael in TEOTW 24. IMO, it's quite a stretch to say that viewing refers to Lews Therin just because we were led to believe that through Rand's naïve POV, especially since the dream in the epilogue indicates that they are still linked (which you no doubt agree with). And finally, the Dark Prophecy indicates that Rand will fall and be 'consumed by the Midnight Towers'. I think this refers to the merge; the 'destruction' is likely separate.

 

Edit: It's funny, cause I feel like we're arguing this for the benefit of everyone else, since we've argued the same before many times. It's like we're just going through the motions.

[Luckers]

I feel that too, lol.

[Southpaw89]

haha I think you two should just continue to argue for awhile then the rest of us can vote which one we think is more accurate ;)

[Luckers]

Nah just read the threads in our FAQ's

[Terez]

We did that already. I won. Luckers didn't vote though. Sometimes he disdains my polls, no doubt with a sniff.

[Luckers]

And a tug of my braid. :P