I quite liked Perrin's story-arc. It's interesting seeing a man who's devoted to his wife (and I find it hard to understand why people find his obsession to hard to understand - imagine losing the love of your life; most people would do anything to get it back) and just wanting her back, but at the same time has a whole army to be responsible for that he never wanted, hanging around with people he doesn't really like and trying to resist a ludicrously beautiful woman that he doesn't want.

But, as others have said, if this were really the case, Perrin - in Stonewall's words - be moving swiftly, striking vigorously and securing all the fruits of victory. Or in this case, his lady.

But he doesn't. He dithers, fails to make use of his status as a powerful lord until the battle at Malden, fails to enlist Rand's support - considering how Rand feels about harming women and about his two buddies, I'm pretty sure Rand would have given him half the Black Tower and the sworn Aes Sedai to get Faile back - or the support of Bashere and Bashere's BFF Bael, fails to even use his own super-power well. Instead, he makes LTT look like a paragon of rationality, and then he tortures people for information that his Asha'man and Aiel and wolves could get without *any* trouble, based on how RJ has written their abilities.

I agree, however, that I'd rather read Perrin's SL than Elayne's. In fact I'd rather read tax law than Elayne's thoughts.

Asunawa is not a hero by Word of God.

I mean, I started feeling deeply uncomfortable with their relationship ever since reading about the spanking, because that's overwhelmingly not cool. It's one thing to talk about the fact that, until two years ago, women had a monopoly on the Power, and so could make the strongest man look like a tiny girl in a shed, but Faile's no Aes Sedai. And Perrin was a freaking *blacksmith*! He's huge, and he's always been written as such.

But this guy is supposed to be the gentlest of Our Guys. Remember, at the beginning of ACOS he was ready to fight Rand over his treatment of the captured Aes Sedai. Then, suddenly, he's dismembering prisoners of war because he's angry over his wife being taken. It's not relevant that he's disgusted with himself. I mean, what he's just done is the "to the Pain" bit from Princess Bride. In addition to committing a war crime, he's done something that, unlike Asunawa's ministrations, *cannot* be repaired. Ever.

This could be forgiven if RJ were writing something like ASOIAF. But he's not. We've been told again and again and again how Rand's shift towards a "gray" hero is an unmitigated disaster. Indeed, Rand's "hardness" can't even be justified by raison d'etat, because it makes him a *worse* ruler. He's become extraordinarily arrogant and almost incapable of delegation; every time one of his subordinates makes a decision these days, he jumps down their throats. Witness, for example, his reaction to Darlin's nomination for the throne of Tear. Everyone, including Min, thinks he's an absolute jackhole about it. Or look at his reaction to Logain's use of his sigil on his uniform: Logain's words are that no one can take away what he is. The old Rand would have deeply sympathized with this sentiment, but the new Rand is almost jealous.

Perrin's not super-arrogant, he's become psychotic instead. I could understand this move if it were justified based on RJ's characterization of him throughout the series, but it's not. It's justified only tenuously on the basis of a relationship that is deeply uncomfortable for a hell of a lot of readers, and that I think is incredibly unhealthy.

For that reason, the fact that he tortures a guy is absolutely *wrong* in a way Asunawa's is not, because Asunawa has always been written as a crazy evil torturer guy.

Maybe if RJ had written Perrin the way GRRM's written Tyrion - namely, a fundamentally good guy who's been the butt monkey for Westeros his entire life, but who's never been anything like a saint - but he has not.

Well, as descriptions of Perrin and Faile's relationship go, this one is pretty wide of the mark. She's jealous, yes, but no more than you'd expect. As for irrational, bear in mind she's human. They all are. She didn't take the time to actually tell him about her culture, and what would be normal. In this series, that's pretty typical. Happens an awful lot in life as well. Once he understood what she wanted, a lot of the jealousy and misunderstanding went away. As for verbally abusive, she wants a husband who will stand up to her, and occasional arguments. Hardly abuse. She's just not willing to be submissive, and doesn't want him to be either.

Have you been reading the same series as me? In TSR he spanked her; in LOC he found out that the "culture" she comes from, or at least the way her parents do things, applauds Deira's feeling that it was great to find out that she was weaker than Davram because during one of their arguments he physically forced her to be submissive; in ACOS he finally cracked and went berserk on her because of her insanely jealous and petty reaction to him trying to figure out what the hell happened to Berelain, which she *knew* he was doing as the DR's right hand man and friend; and in COT, he went, in my eyes, beyond the pale. The man had Asha'man capable of traveling, he could have returned to Cairhien or Camelyn at any time to get more Aiel, which the series has consistently depicted as ubermenschen at least for scouting and combat, he could have used his wolves to scout, and instead, he tortured prisoners of war at least as cruelly as Asunawa would. With the combination of physical pain and mental anguish he inflicted, he probably went beyond anyone not capable of torturing with the Power, and even then, he's one of the three main GOOD GUYS. Oh, and he's absolutely unconcerned that his wife was seriously considering sleeping with her Brotherless friend.

It would take too long to list all the f'ed up things that Faile has done.

As I said before, this is an unhealthy relationship.

Because it's clearly better to go with someone who doesn't love you to someone who does, or someone isane than someone who isn't. As advice for healthy relationships go, I'm not sure most experts would recommend the nutter who doesn't love you, but why not?

I would have thought that my post demonstrated that for me, whatever else it is, the Perrin-Faile relationship is not love.

I think codependency is the best that I can think of.

But that isn't love.

It's understandable certainly, but I think some would have like to get the story from a different point of view.  Give us Berlain's occasionally, or Aram's.  Be interesting to be in his mind.  Perrin can be a chore because there is rarely any humor, and you can read the POV of someone single minded only for so long.  Light, the man ignored a fellow who had a cough that progressed into vomiting beetles til death.  You would think he'd go "You know, I want to get Faile back and all, but I could spare 60 seconds to ponder what this might mean."

It's especially galling in light of the fact that since POD, if not LOC and ACOS, we've been forced to look at the similar example of Rand becoming a half-crazed singleminded fellow who's losing sight of his humanity. And not because he's "becoming a wolf". I get royally pissed off at Perrin's thoughts about how much he's afraid of losing his humanity while we are forced to watch him lose his humanity in a much more meaningful way! I think even his wolf buddies would be pretty shocked at his behavior.

Whereas these days with Rand, we (thankfully) only get like 1/2 at best from his POV; frankly, this makes me a little sad, since I originally thought they were pretty damned awesome. Nowadays, without Mat, I don't see how I could stand the series, especially when those other two are dealing with their women.

I thought he got less interesting because he went batsh*t crazy when Faile was captured.

But frankly, read his chapters in LOC and ACOS and you get the image that this man is in a very damaging codependent relationship with an almost bipolar girl who's barely pubescent, irrationally and insanely jealous, and constantly pushing him to put himself out of Rand's shadow almost as much as Mel was doing to Mat.

He, in the mean time, puts up with it because he's suffered incredible trauma, he's clearly not the sharpest or at least quickest tool in the smithy, and because he's willing to be essentially abusive to her, if not physically, then verbally. And she *likes* it.

Perhaps IRL this could be worked out with roleplay, or S&M type stuff, but it's grotesque in the novels.

And RJ's defence of their behavior was always very weak. My g/f got turned off the series in LOC or ACOS because this. Frankly, I told her that if she were ever like Faile, I'd go for a Berelain in an instant, and she said that if I were like Goldeneyes, she'd go for a Rand or even the DO.