16 years. It's kind of strange to have that end. It wasn't a staggering failure like COT, or an intensely boring meandering book like POD, but it was weak, over rushed, and an uniquely unsatisfying end to a decade and a half. I am still glad I bought it. But I'm pissed I bought it for full price

Shara's army was, if anything too small. I don't think you get how huge shara is. The Seanchan forces on this side of the ocean are powerful, even without damane, they're more powerful than any single nation but the Aiel "nation". But they're not the full armed forces of an entire continent. More galling was the utterly ridiculous tactics. Look, Jordan wasn't a professional historian, nor a higher officer, but at least he fairly understood military operations. Yet even then, his real strength *as an author* was in slicing across the battle field and capturing the chaos - *not* following the staff officers back in the tent. None of these battles remotely compared to the battle of Cairhien in FOH. Hell, Ituralde's defense of Maradon was more gripping, painful, and exciting than the entire Last Battle. So it's not like this is purely a RJ v BS thing

Was Ilyena a channeler?

I can't remember if RJ said so or not, but her full name was

Ilyena Moerelle Dalisar

before she got married. As a result, it's probably safe to conclude that she was a channeler for several reasons. First, they got married not later than half way through the Collapse (Mierin goes berserk at their wedding, which is indicative of the process by which she joined The Big Guy), meaning well over half a century before her death as an absolute minimum.

At the time of her death, she's still described as a beautiful, fairly youngish woman.

Second, she had the three names - which were, relatively, easier for channelers to obtain.

This combined with the time between her marriage and her death suggest that she was, even in the absence of RJ directly saying so, which, again, I'm pretty sure he did.

Here's an excellent example of a situation comparable to the Lightforces:

During the American Civil War, the South did not produce a single rail. Not one. Single. Rail. Iron and manufacturing capacity was required for far more pressing things like ordnance.

What this meant was that every time any new railroad was laid to support military operations, and every time the Rebels repaired damaged lines, the Confederates were forced to take rails from an existing railroad.

By the end of the war, the South had, in effect, deindustrialized itself, because it was never able to reinvest in its infrastructure base because it was forced to meet wartime demands. Meanwhile, every Southern territory taken by Federal troops was laid to waste, as part of a concerted, and brilliant, policy both to destroy the Rebellion's will to resist and to ensure that, even when the South managed to recapture lost areas, it could not undo the damage done by Union troops.

This is what total war *means* and frankly, it's how the Shadow fought the First War.

technological? it would only require someone channeling..... heat and fold 1000 times, an something to make it so it never needs to be sharpened.

 

you wouldn't need an industry for that, the swords were made during the War of Power, before the Breaking.

Jordan explicitly stated that as the First War entered its later phases, the industrial base necessary for the previously advanced armaments had seriously degraded.

In particular, the fact that every single aspect of society was subordinated to the war effort meant that the Power-based infrastructure (ie. the energy for factories, the transportation grid, and pretty much, well, everything) was effectively destroyed, since the Alliance couldn't spare the resources, and the Horde, if you haven't been paying attention, actually gained from allowing everything to disintegrate.

Simpler weapons, like swords, utilized in construction far less manpower, One Power, and most important of all, rapidly decreasing industrial base.

Remember, metallurgical skill in the Power is extraordinarily rare as established in the series, but sword manufacture, while complicated requires far less capital investment than First War analogs for energy-based weapons, armored fighting vehicles, and combat aircraft.

In that case, you should appreciate Rand's situation as well. It doesn't matter how many honors he receives in life, none of that would be passed on to his children.

I do, the Dragon Reborn isn't a hereditary office.*

*But Rand's daughter's going to be Queen of Andor, Rand Jr's going to be King of Illian, and Cairhien's going to be a nice family-owned timeshare.

I'm not saying it was his initial intention.

I'm just saying that the idea that Morgase or Elayne (or, by extension, any of the inbreds running the Westlands) are somehow competent rulers is a case of Informed Attributes (c/o Tvtropes), and that our Heroes become won over to aristocratic values out of close contact with aristocrats and being made aristocrats themselves.

I would, just once, have liked someone to buck the trend and retain their responsibility without receiving a Nobility Upgrade. Hell, that's why I like the Aiel so much.

 

Mr. Micawber, I don't think RJ was making a political statement by choosing monarchy as the common governing method in Randland. It's just part of the setting.

 

 

Neither do I, if you read my post in full.

Largely because his original 7 characters were a member of a republic, a warrior monk sworn to that republic, and 5 residents of a rural community that was organized and run along democratic/republican lines.

But, the most of the main characters that got introduced afterward were either nobles, royals, or chieftains/shaman-esque wise women.

And the main characters all got placed in positions of authority. I just feel that Perrin's unwilling assumption of the hereditary overlordship of Duopotamia was completely unnecessary, forced upon him by his overbearing wife, and represents a terrible reversal of his previous characterization.

There's no reason he couldn't have been the elected leader of Duopotamia - something like the Protector or Governor or Consul or even an explicit title - without becoming the overlord in perpetuity. Then he really could have gone back to being a blacksmith, in the end.

Jordan's move away (within the series, I doubt Mr. Rigney was a monarchist or what not) from classical republicanism towards benign authoritarianism is best seen with respect to Elayne.

I think that, in a sense, he wrote himself into this problem by making a member of royalty a main POV character.

Contrast this with the extraordinary, well, disgust that all of the Duopotamians have for nobility - if not royalty, since, let's recall, Rand was thinking with his breeches when he first met Elayne and Morgase - at the start of the book. They live, essentially, in a miniature republic.

One thing that makes me despise Faile as a character is how she turns Perrin from a Man of the People resistance leader into a freaking hereditary aristocrat. I always knew that *Rand* would have to be an unelected ruler, and that Mat, because of both his military prowess (the traditional way in human history of moving up into the hereditary aristocracy) and his inevitable marriage to an imperial princess, would eventually have a title.

But Perrin, as the author avatar, would have been great if he had been elected say, Governor or Consul or whatever of Duopotamia after the big battle, as well as consistently, firmly, insisting that he was a blacksmith first, and that eventually he would become one again.

Sorry if I'm being dim, but I've seen it mentioned once or twice, but never any actual explaination - does it mean Faile's in line for the throne of Saldaea or something? (I'd assume she is as she's Tenobia's cousin...) Or is it something to do with Malkier?

 

 

The crown of Saldaea is the Broken Crown. I believe it's mentioned in the BWB, or one of the glossaries.

 

Tenobia has no heirs of her body.

 

Davram is her closest relative, and therefore her heir.

 

Faile is Davram's heir. If Saldaean law does not allow for male succession, Faile herself is Tenobia's heir.

We know that Fail has sisters, but I don't think we've heard about any brothers. We also know that Tenobia succeeded her father.

We know this because Muad Cheade was the Marshal General of Saldaea under Tenobia's father.

Thus, at the strictest, Saldaea has a male-preference cognatic primogeniture succession. However, my personal feeling is that eldest child inherits, making it absolute (aka equal) primogeniture.

Because Ethenielle is queen of Kandor, and her son, the one not killed in New Spring because he was in the south with his mother *because he was heir*, I think that the Borderlands, in order to prevent succession crises use absolute primogeniture, because the nature of the Blightborder is such that the heir needs to be trained from birth far more than any other country's heir.

This excludes Malkier, which seems to resemble the succession for the Holy Roman Empire, since it's elective - because the highest lords have to cast their votes - but with a preference in favor of the child of the previous monarch, since everyone basically acknowledges Lan even in New Spring when the lords or at least their heirs are still around. It's unclear whether Malkier ever had a queen regnant, as opposed to a co-ruler.

AT THE BEGINNING OF ACOS, ONE OF THE BORDERLAND RULERS MENTIONS THAT TENOBIA IS NOT MARRIED SO SUCESSION FOR THE THRONE WOULD GO TO HER UNCLE (DAVRAM BASHERE0 OR HIS HEIR, FAILE. 

 

I DO NOT THINK A DETAILED EXPLANATION OF THE BROKEN CROWN HAS BEEN PRESENTED.

I didn't know the Dark One fancied himself an expert on the Saldaean succession.

Quick question, other than Demandred's whereabouts and Verin's allegiances, is there any question in the World of the Wheel that has been debated more than this one?

And don't even mention Joar Addam Nessosin.

Asmoflamingdean's death practically has an entire series written about it by now.

These football references add a touch of interpretive reading that I'm finding quite enjoyable.

 

Cheers!

Considering how many flaming war references creep into sports commentary, I figure it might be nice to try it on the other foot for the books!

Bosh, Muad, that all could have been done with Mat and the Windfinders, not to mention that Bael and Bashere could have ended the civil war with nary a drop of blood.

All she needed to do back then was ask the father of her children for a loan, and *wham* Caemlyn City's back in the standings. Hell, maybe even a real starter, because I'm sure Rand I-can't-touch-a-bloody-woman Al'Thor would have even waived the transfer fee.

That could have taken Caemlyn City way back up in the league tables; maybe not up to the level of AS Tar Valon or Rhuidean SV.

But certainly better than the bloody mess they are right now!

Ok, I really can't let this stand.

We've all been reading the same material, folks, in some cases for years. We've seen it all play out.

And I cannot think anything other than Elayne's been running that side into the ground since she got to Caemlyn.

So what, you'll say, she's got one of the best managers in the sport! And I'll scoff at that, I don't think Ms. Trahelion has done anything worthy of the name yet.

Face it, every time her boys get suited up to go out on the pitch, they know they're going to get massacred. Best hope she's got is that her boy toy the Dragon Reborn will give her a loan or nine; maybe not from FC Al'Thor, but the man's got other teams, like Black Tower, to transfer some players to her. Light knows she'll need it, if Caemlyn City's going to have a chance in hell of finishing in the top half of the league table, mates.

Wow.  I'm gonna vote for that.  I suppose it falls under 'other'?

Well, I said "another lord" but I suppose "other" works just as well  ;D

I think it's pretty clear who will be running the place in a few years...

Duopotamia United

Owner: Bela

Manager: Narg

Notable Players: S. Haran (loan from Shayol Ghul FC), M. "He's no bloody hero" Cauthon (loan from Seandar United)

Club History:

After the Second Shadow Cup, the wrecked and divided clubs of the New Era found themselves still unable to maintain control over the boundaries and TV markets claimed on a map. This power vacuum led to the carving out of new sides by the settlement of unclaimed areas and the declaration of independence by others.

Duopotamia is one such example and is likely the most powerful of the creations, indeed it stands equal to any of the existing NE teams in the league tables.

Only a few years prior, a Friendly against the side of the home district of the Dragon Reborn allowed Trollocs to gain a certain familiarity with the land of the Two Rivers. Those who returned to the Blight told tales of a place where humans flowed like milk and honey, filled with flowers and trees, and nary a giant fiery toilet or scary Halfman to be seen.

With the defeat of Shai'tan (0 -0, 4-3 in penalties) at Shayol Ghul, these Friends of the Dark had no team to support and no home to return to, having had all of them burned during the celebrations of jubliant FC Al'Thor supporters. Wanting to avoid arrest at the hands of angry police from all over the Westlands, who sought to carry out warrants for the arrest of several of the Dark's side for truly animalistic behavior in towns and cities across the recent Cup final, the remaining Trollocs trudged south to this mythical paradise.

At the same time, Bela, angry at the lack of recognition of equine support during the recent contest, resigned from her position in the governing body of the Westlands, the Fédération Internationale de Football Aes Sedai or FIFAS  (meaning Obstructive Football Bureaucrats of the World or perhaps The Blind, Hopelessly Corruptible Black-Striped Servants of Suck; translations from the Old Tongue are never precise).

Using the pooled resources of her ethnic community, she purchased a small club abandoned by its piss-poor ownership in Taren's Ferry. Soon after, the disgruntled former supporters of Shai'tan began to arrive. At this point, Bela faced a crucial decision. Should she attempt to remain in this small regional group, or should she try to get promoted into a higher league? The answer, of course, was easy, and so Bela met with the pillars of the Trolloc community, urging them to participate in a joint venture with her and convince the other Two Rivers teams to drop out of contention. The Trolloc businessmen eagerly agreed, and a series of withdrawals plagued the other three Two Rivers sides from then on, along with several often fatal injuries to their best players. Amazingly, these hale, healthy men all seemed to come down with similar ailments that their Club Wisdoms could not seem to do anything about, including rare illnesses like accidentally-brutally-stabbed-themselves-in-the-stomach-while-shaving and accidentally-brutally-cut-their-heads-off-while-combing-their-hair.

Quickly, Taren Ferry AC saw itself triumphant over the Emond's Field Rangers, FC Deven Ride, and Watch Hill Hotspur. Despite angry protestations from Andor's other major clubs in Baerlon, Whitebridge, and Caemlyn, the "Terrans", as their supporters lovingly named them, replaced Andor's fourth major located in Four Kings.

At this point, the Trolloc investors came to Bela with the idea of renaming their club after the whole of the Two Rivers, since by this point, the only supporters of the Rangers or Hotspur remaining in the Two Rivers were in the concessions (or perhaps, *were* the concessions, as translations from Trolloc speech are never exact), and either the Trolloc or horse communities had largely bought out the major Two Rivers industries of industrialized agriculture and narcotics processing in a series of hostile takeovers that some were even calling "blood stained and brutal".

Bela agreed, and decided to christen her new Premiership club Duopotamia United after an internet vote, which saw members of Bela's - and the current manager Narg's, who had come out of a peaceful retirement in the Westwood - large fanclubs spam the ballot with the fashionable Duopotamia replacing the drab "Two Rivers".

As of writing, Bela is currently pressing the owners of the other sides, including those like Perrin and Faile Aybara whom Trolloc community leaders call "fantastically racist", to end discrimination against her side's supporters in every stadium in the Westlands.

when they go to Rhuidean they see the ruins of the statue of libertyand airplanes so we are the first age

? the statue of liberty... really? I don't remember that far back, can someone remind me... please?

Asmodean walked among the ruins, wondering if Al'Thor was following behind, trying desperately to reach the access key before the other man even knew it existed.

Then, suddenly, he stopped. This hesitation would destroy him, for it gave Al'Thor time to reach the link to the Choedan Kal.

He fell to his knees in front of the male statuette holding a crystal globe aloft. But his eyes were not on it, they looked forward to a hand, a massive hand beyond in the mist.

"No!" he screamed in his mind. "We finally really did it. You maniacs! You blew it up! Damn you. Shai'tan damn you all to the Pit of Doom!"

He did not even notice Al'Thor come up beside him as he reached towards the Choedan Kal to obliterate everything.

Edit: Hehehe, now I even know who should have played Asmodean in the movie!  :P

I wonder where Australia fits into Randland. I hope it didn't sink.

I think sinking might be an improvement.

I thought the average denizen of Oz is already sinking, into a warm puddle of beer.

7of9, George Washington McLintock is one of my favorite characters of all time  ;)

I don't think you can minimize how pure awesome the Duke is.

However, that's not the issue I have. Way, way back at the beginning of this thread, I identified my serious issue with this relationship, which has turned this thread into a compare and contrast on the relative morality of spanking. I do bear some blame for that myself, but I bristled at RoboHillbilly's wording the most, particularly the point about that family being "God-fearing".

Anyway, my issue was never *about* the spanking. It was that the spanking is *indicative* of what I see as an unhealthy codependent relationship between Faile and Perrin that's grounded in an element of Sado-Masochism that I find terribly out of place in the series.

Moreover, people keep debating about how awful the amputation was, and I tried to explain my view, which was that it was shocking and discomfiting because Perrin was never, until this storyline, written this way.

That's what it all comes down to. I believe, strongly, that RJ was atrociously bad at the characterization that went into this relationship, and moreover, that he was absolutely cavalier, if not offended, at the widespread reader reaction to Faile.

I hate to bring this up *again* but Perrin is the author avatar here. I don't think RJ appreciated that when he's on record many many many times as stating Perrin is his favorite character, Perrin is the character that most resembles him, etc. his readers might be a little weirded out when that avatar has a dysfunctional relationship with an unstable masochist.

It seems to me that those who loathe the Perrin story arc must not be or never have been married. I am apporaching 20 years of marriage and if any one kidnapped or harmed my wife and children I would do everything in my power to see that they became one with a shallow grave, most likely in multiple pieces with no reguard for any of those who stood in my way. Also, all other things in my life would take the back seat until she/they returned safely or were avenged. So I guess I can empathize with Perrin in his fear and zealousness.

 

The first couple of years of my marriage (we got married at 19) was very similar to what we see with Perrin and Faile relationship. Both of us trying to figure out how the other ticked, stretching the boundries. Another thing with the arc I can buy into, been there done that.

 

Faile was raised in a culture that both husband and wife carry the strength of the family and showing back bone and taking care of buisness is proper. She also tries to make Perrin act as though he were raised the same. while Perrin was raised by a bunch of timid wimps that allowed a petite, 26 year old, mouthy, woman push them around as though they were the very sheep they sheared.

 

Perrin turning faile over his knee was one of the best things he could have done. I was raised to never beat a woman as well as most, but he did not beat the crap out of her. He got her attention and as the story shows her respect. My sister-in-law experienced the same thing one Thanksgiving in a house full of God-Fearing backwoods hillbilles. She was being incredibly rude and hateful to her husband (verbally abusive) He took her over his knee and swatted her like the child she was acting and got a standing ovation from all 35 of her family members. She never treated him like that again.

 

I believe Perrin did not aks for help getting Faile back because he disregarded what he knew was right (bringing Masema back and helping prepare for TG by standing by Rand's side) and followed his heart. This is another pivotal change in the Perrin character. He is no longer thinking before he steps. It seems more realistic to me.

Look, I have to call BS on this. I've been in a long term relationship - we're engaged in every meaningful way, it's just not the right time to get married - for over three years, my parents have been married way longer than you, buddy.

I don't give a Rattus norvegicus' posterior what you do in your so-called "God-fearing" hillybilly land, but where I'm from, in NY, you do what that guy did, and you're running a serious risk of getting the living daylights beaten out of you by her largest male relative. Moreover, considering the ethnic makeup of the city's police force, you're looking at jail time, since if she's Italian or Irish, there's a non-zero chance her family is very good friends in one way or another with one of New York's Finest.

Moreover, where on Earth do you get off attaching "God-fearing" to what you described? My priest, not to mention my family's dear friend, one of the retired bishops here, and my entire church would say that raising a hand to your wife, absent, obviously, some kind of *real threat*, is the absolute lowest you can go. Every cop I knew growing up - meaning fellow parishioners - said that the things that disturbed were in order, child molestation, rape, and wife beating.

And the fellow in your story is going to be in for a major surprise when he finds out that the Big Guy probably agrees with me.

Not really. I didn't care for him chasing after Faile the first time I read the series, but then the second time I read through the series I had no problem getting through it. Not sure if it's because I was prepared for it or not. He's certainly more entertaining than Elayne or Min or Nynaeve in my opinion.

 

How about you? Did you like Perrin's storyline?

Elayne's story line makes me want to read tax law while being beaten by 100 angry Aielmen.

Nynaeve has two things going for her in my book: she healed Logain, and she cleansed the entire flaming Male half of the True Source.

But I hope dearly Sanderson down plays the braid tugging in the last three books.

I quite liked Perrin's story-arc. It's interesting seeing a man who's devoted to his wife (and I find it hard to understand why people find his obsession to hard to understand - imagine losing the love of your life; most people would do anything to get it back) and just wanting her back, but at the same time has a whole army to be responsible for that he never wanted, hanging around with people he doesn't really like and trying to resist a ludicrously beautiful woman that he doesn't want.

 

But, as others have said, if this were really the case, Perrin - in Stonewall's words - be moving swiftly, striking vigorously and securing all the fruits of victory. Or in this case, his lady.

 

But he doesn't. He dithers, fails to make use of his status as a powerful lord until the battle at Malden, fails to enlist Rand's support - considering how Rand feels about harming women and about his two buddies, I'm pretty sure Rand would have given him half the Black Tower and the sworn Aes Sedai to get Faile back - or the support of Bashere and Bashere's BFF Bael, fails to even use his own super-power well. Instead, he makes LTT look like a paragon of rationality, and then he tortures people for information that his Asha'man and Aiel and wolves could get without *any* trouble, based on how RJ has written their abilities.

 

I agree, however, that I'd rather read Perrin's SL than Elayne's. In fact I'd rather read tax law than Elayne's thoughts.

What you say is absolutely correct - a normal, forward-thinking and logical person may well have done exactly what you suggested. But let's look at things in context:

 

1) Perrin is mad with grief. He's so focused on the "hunt" - it probably never even occurred to him to ask Rand for aid. Or anyone else, for that matter - recall that he's not at ease with being a Lord, and needs lessons from Faile in even the most basic things!

 

2) Don't forget that the last time Perrin was in Rand's presence, Rand hauled him up with the OP and threw him across the room. Hardly the "friendly" relationship you're describing - so, even if the idea did occur to him, he probably would've decided not to. Male pride is still pride.

 

3) Furthermore, Faile is his wife, and therefore his responsibility. Perrin's been painted as this responsible, sensible young man who takes the right things seriously. He's also something of a "lone wolf" (pun sort of intended). That kind of attitude means that when something goes wrong, he's going to try and fix it. Alone.

 

So, yes, there are probably plenty of things he could've done. But don't forget that, as a result of his ignoring the Rand-option as a source for help, he instead managed to forge a working relationship with the Seanchan - something Rand is also trying to achieve - and gained the respect of their commanders.

 

In conclusion - the bigger picture is always made up of smaller, mini-pictures :). When taken contextually, you can probably find a reason for why Perrin did what he did, as I have outlined above! No doubt I have missed many other possible interpretations, but that's how it goes! :)

But what I really want to know, and you haven't answered this, is why Perrin is willing to make a deal with the Shadow *but never once thinks about asking his friend*!?

I get that he's psychotic because she's gotten kidnapped, but this is a gaping hole in the narrative.

Btw, I absolutely agree with you about Tylee. I think she's going to be an absolute key for Rand & Co. getting the Seanchan on their side for TG.

That's why Perrin's story line is more important than Elayne's every day of the week.

But it could have been wrapped up in one and half books with the exact same result, instead of taking up four.

2) Don't forget that the last time Perrin was in Rand's presence, Rand hauled him up with the OP and threw him across the room. Hardly the "friendly" relationship you're describing - so, even if the idea did occur to him, he probably would've decided not to. Male pride is still pride.

It was a little more harsh than necessary - as both men later think to themselves - but it was absolutely planned between them.

You seriously think Asunawa wouldn't cut someones hand off? That's just silly, I think he would in a heartbeat. Just because he's been portrayed as some crazy dude doesn't justify his actions either. I think it's extremely unfair to compare Perrin to someone like Asunawa who really doesn't care who he hurts so long as he gets a confession he's all good. Perrin was feelign pressured at that moment in time, he had everyone looking at him like he should do it and that's what drove him to make the decision he did. Peer pressure... except without the drugs haha.

I could believe Asunawa would do everything including gut somebody. That's what RJ has made clear Questioners do. But the sole example of Asunawa's torture we get is Morgase, and her attitude is that it was only supplementary to the real torture of sleeping with Valda. Moreover, it was intended to be intensely painful, without leaving any lasting physical problems, so that it would appear Morgase confessed to whatever he wanted by her own free will. That doesn't mean it wouldn't drive her insane, of course.

In fact, Asunawa could do exactly what Perrin does, but what Perrin does is worse, because he's one of Our Guys. That makes it worse; as I said, if RJ wrote his good guys as deeply flawed human beings existing in a nasty world - which, as I said, someone like GRRM does - I could understand that. But that's not how he writes, so it's a huge shock. Indeed, if you ever read his comments about the Perrin/Faile relationship, which is the catalyst for his behavior, it is abundantly clear that RJ never had any understanding of how much it turned off his readers. In fact, he could get pretty defensive about it, and his comments about Perrin left me feeling that he thought we're supposed to be rooting for this crap.

Meanwhile, you laugh about the spanking, but for me, that's physical abuse, full-stop. He is massively stronger than her. I don't think it matters at all what "culture" she comes from. That's like saying I should respect female circumcision, because, actually, that practice really is a major aspect of some real life cultures.

What bothers me is that RJ never ever suggests that what he does is wrong in the slightest. Instead, he makes it pretty clear that the girl's own mother gets hot and bothered when her father demonstrates his own superior physical strength. Look, you could compare my feelings on this to Rand's "chivalry", but what makes the latter supremely dysfunctional is that Rand applies it to women regardless of whether they're Shadowsworn or, like Lanfear or Semirhage, able to match him strength for strength. My issue is that it is morally reprehensible for a much stronger party to use physical force against a weaker one absent any real threat to the former, irrespective of gender. I'm as pissed off by things like Aes Sedai using their power to beat up men as I am by Perrin doing what he did. I don't think that kind of behavior is worthy of LoLing.

He wasn't supossed to contact Rand at all until he got back with Masema, that was the whole point in the "fight" they had. Do I think Rand would have been mad if he? No, I think you're right, Rand would have tried to find a way to help him. But at the same time if they had just left and then came back after talking to Rand it might have been harder to find her. They had a problems enough trying to track her without completely leacving the area.

So you're telling me, in effect, it's completely understandable that Perrin tortures and even thinks that he might swear to the Shadow to get Faile back, but that he would obey the parameters of the "fight"? That's completely illogical, and frankly, ridiculous.

While I believe RJ's narrative case for making Perrin psychotic was extraordinarily weak, the fact remains that once Faile was kidnapped, he was willing to do anything, in his own words up to and including joining the Shadow.

And he's not willing to use the best weapon at his disposal, his best friend since childhood? I have to call serious BS on this.

The fact is that RJ drew out this plotline for four books. He was not "confused" about where to put Perrin, he did this because he wanted to. Same with the idiotic Elayne story line. He removed Mat entirely from Book 8, and I could understand that because he did that for Perrin in Book 5.

But then in KOD, and even more so in COT, he barely gave any chapters to Rand, the savior of the bloody world, so that we could read chapters from Faile's perspective about being kidnapped. And at the same time, we're told that the Last Battle is coming.

That makes it *more* important that we have chapters from either Rand or his group, not less. TDR, which barely featured Rand at all, before he was even really acknowledged as the Dragon Reborn, still had more pages devoted to him than COT. And it wasn't too much different from the face time he was given in KOD.