I thought that scene was fantastic. I enjoy a lot of Mat and Elayne's scenes tbh. They usually make for some great moments, comic and unexpectedly heartwarming. While some of the time in Ebou Dar was slow for me during my first read, the actual climax of The Bowl of the Winds I found interesting, and worth some of the slower bits it took to get there. I agree with you on the importance of Elayne's mission vs taking the throne. The horrible unrelenting drought and endless summer was definitely a bigger deal than political unrest and technically, more dangerous to the world at large.

Every reader is entitled to their own opinion, but I'd have to agree to disagree. I really like Elayne. I liked her from her first introduction. She and Nynaeve are two of my favorite characters in the series on the whole. Are they annoying sometimes? Do they lack foresight? Do they make mistakes? Yes, to all. Their flaws and strengths are what make them compelling. Ebou Dar plot can be summed up by the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills. Frankly the pattern is controlling events to happen the way they are meant to, so I think it's unrealistic to say "this would've saved countless lives" because there is zero assurance any actions would actually work out that way. Rand trying to fix things throughout the series backfires more often than not, so I don't feel it's a simple fix or rests on the shoulders of a particular character. You can't stand Elayne. I like her a lot. Liking or disliking a character or plot point isn't a universal one-size fits all thing.

IMO turning Egwene 's rite of passage into any type of ritual be it tossing her off a cliff or a grotto baptism just doesn't fit the culture of the Two Rivers from the books. In the book, the sign of a girl reaching adulthood was braiding her hair which is such a simple but lovely tradition (harkening back to early medieval and Celtic cultures). Why would her rite of passage be so mystic or symbolic? IMO it just doesn't fit Emond's Field. I'm trying to think of something positive Rafe did...I didn't mind expanding the celebration of Bel Tine with the little remembrance candle lighting thing. It didn't exactly fit the festive Bel Tine vibe but you know I didn't hate that compared to most of the off things about the Two Rivers.

I agree with this. 9 and 10 were not a slog for me at all, I really enjoyed both of those. Book 7 A Crown of Swords was a bit of a slog my first reading, so I think I'd say that was the one I had to power through. But honestly, strange as this might sound, New Spring took me forever to finish. It's not even that long! I can't relate to all the love New Spring gets with readers, for the most part, it feels unnecessary and outside of the dressmaker scene, and one or two wittily dry lines from Lan, I can't say anything really stood out. I'd probably skip it in most future rereads.

While I've read people complaining about RJ's female characters, it's not an opinion I hold. As a female reader, I actually appreciate the fact he put depth into his female characters, giving them flaws and moments of weakness as opposed to the token type females a lot of fantasy authors write in the genre. Same as his males to be honest. All the characters annoyed me at times, and I think that makes them feel more real. I like a lot of the females in the WOT. So, while RJ gets a lot of flack on that point, he's not getting that from me. I felt like the series missed the mark on so many of the characters, IMO Nynaeve was not the character I came to love in the books among other changes that are more noticeable on reread. The series' take on Min was bizarre and unrecognizable. (I won't even get into the guys like Mat, Perrin, Thom, that would be it's own topic) The character changes probably bothered me the most, because the characters were the thing I liked best and they are what kept me hooked on the books the first time around. I didn't have the same attachment to the style of characters presented in the tv series. While there are a lot of things I might have changed going forward, I don't see the WOT as all that hard to adapt within a series context. Some plots need cutting, a lot needs to be streamlined but ultimately, there are roads to take in that regard that wouldn't take the spirit of the story away. I feel like claiming the story is too difficult to adapt faithfully is just a handy excuse. I'll agree to disagree on those points. At the end of the day, the relationship between a book and reader leaves a lot open to personal interpretation and personal preference. So, that's why we're all going to walk away with different opinions and deal breakers when it comes to accepting an adaption, I think.

Agreed. I realize the shift in focus was deliberate, but I take issue with it. The handling of the characters book vs show is just off-putting. For example, imo Lan was done dirty. In The Eye of The World he shines throughout in various ways, whereas in the show, he's much more Moiraine's hound in the writing, less impressive, less skilled, less in general. While he is her loyal Warder book Lan comes across as his own person, and takes initiative that isn't afforded to his actions throughout season 1 of the series. At times, Lan has nothing to do. Equally, something of book Moiraine's essence is lost in translation, because there's too much focus on her which actually distracts from the powerful calm and unpredictable aura that makes her so interesting. Show Liandrin always seemed more like book Elaida to me. And whoever thought to make Alanna the Aes Sedai poster-child continues to baffle me. In the book, her claim to fame is bonding Rand against his will. Similarly, I'll never understand why there was an entire episode devoted to the Aes Sedai/Warder saga/soap opera with characters that were basically NPCs, when actual plot arcs of main characters were non-existent. It's just such a strange angle in adapting a book like The Eye of The World.

This is the first time I've taken the plunge into rereading the WOT since watching the series... And I'm a little astounded how much worse season 1 adapted of The Eye of The World than I originally thought. Reading the book again, I'd forgotten how simply a lot of the world building and story is presented. Like come on, the first book is not as hard to adapt as people make out. I disagree that 8 episodes weren't enough, because I think a faithful adaption that carried the themes and spirit of the book could be achieved with proper editing, pacing and good writing. I'm not saying this to kick the can down the road or persist in criticism of a series that obviously some people really enjoyed. But - rereading is just solidifying my feelings. In my mind showrunners were using WOT as a base for their own fantasy tale and lacked interest in adapting WOT faithfully, outside of using the character/place names and channeling and some of the basics. It's not the same story because it misses the mark from get-go.

I recently started rereading Eye of The World, I'm about halfway into the book atm. I'm kind of amazed at some of the bits I'd already forgotten. I don't think this book gets enough credit for how it handles the setting and story in a way that is easy to grasp (something I noticed when first reading but have again). It's almost like you are going on a journey to discover RJ's world while the characters are on their journey. I'm looking forward to rereading the series in the general. So, when was the last time you reread the series?

The three loves of Rand was not really a plot angle I cared much about. Luckily, it didn't take up a bunch of space in the books. Rand and Elayne's meeting was fun but their relationship developed between books during their time at The Stone of Tear which didn't give much insight. Rand and Aviendha had the whole plot about her teaching him the Aiel customs but it fizzles out imo in flavor of other more important things that come up. Imo it seemed like we got more of Elayne and Aviendha talking to each other about loving Rand than either had time with Rand. S̶o̶r̶r̶y̶ ̶R̶a̶f̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶z̶e̶r̶o̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶i̶f̶i̶c̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶m̶a̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶E̶l̶a̶y̶n̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶A̶v̶i̶e̶n̶d̶h̶a̶ ̶l̶o̶v̶e̶r̶s̶,̶ ̶I̶ ̶d̶e̶s̶p̶i̶s̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶. I preferred Rand and Min as a pairing out of the three, because there was some on-page development between them that kinda worked. She stuck with him at his darkest and lowest and that really felt like a decent depiction of selfless love. I believe the three were meant to be representations of the Mother, Maiden and Crone depicted in Celtic Mythology. Elayne being the mother (having Rand's kids) Aviendha the maiden (maiden of the spear duh) and Min the crone (a little older than him, experienced and book knowledge) - although I guess they could be interchangeable archetypes depending which facets you apply. When reading the books, I totally thought Elayne was going be Ilyena reincarnated, but that never seemed to really pan out. My personal headcanon (that I know this is only headcanon and not at all in the books) is that each of them was one of the Dragon's greatest loves spun out by the pattern which is why Rand can't seem to choose between them. XD

That scene was great! Another I found hilarious is the part in the A Crown of Swords where Nynaeve and Elayne come to the inn to apologize to Mat who is suffering from a serious hangover. Whenever Mat acts appalled over 'where Olver is getting such bad influence' pinning it on the band, when the kid is picking up a lot of questionable habits from Mat is gold. Honestly, Mat's my fav comic relief throughout the books in general. I also enjoyed the reactions Loial gets whenever he tries to explain something and everyone is like 'hurry up'. I find Nynaeve amusing as well, because of her indignation and how she often misreads people, motives and situations.

I very much enjoy Loial! His introduction at the Queen's Blessing really stood out to me. Loial didn't make my list because I was thinking he's supporting not minor, but I frankly don't know how to categorize the characters. Lol

Isabella Burreci seemed too old to be Faile imo, the nose shape kinda bugged me, because her profile wasn't hawkish just pronounced. Personally, she didn't fit how I pictured Faile but I might have accepted it had the character been written differently (most of the casting/characters were that way for me, and some I truly liked). But like most of the characters, the series version of Faile wasn't like her book counterpart. I disliked the show backstory for Faile as Davram Bashere is a character I really enjoyed in the books. And IDK I just didn't really get what the point was of changing her so drastically.

Yeah, I didn't think about but now that you've said it - it makes all kinds of sense. She would have been a much better Min!

Hard to say - personally speaking, when I first started the series, I thought Nynaeve was insufferable and too bossy - but she actually became one of my favorite characters in the series. I liked Elayne right off, imo she really fit the pampered princess who knows nothing about the world outside of her sheltered existence, she grows as the series progresses but if you don't like her, I'm uncertain if that will change. I grew to like and understand Egwene over time, so my opinion of her shifted as the series went. IMO Jordan's characters are what I liked best about the WOT. Having said that everyone has characters they click with them or annoy them, that's just personal preference. I give Jordan credit for having badass females who are also flawed human beings, products of their upbringings, societies, and not presented in a way I've found in a lot of other fantasy authors treating female characters - either too perfect or too imperfect. Of course, that's just my opinion as a female reader. That goes for his male characters as well. There's few book characters I've been so invested in as those in the WOT. Having said that @HeavyHalfMoonBlade makes some very valid points above. I do find the use of antagonist narrative being a focus in scenes which makes POVs conflict. His take on Aes Sedai fits my takeaway as well. But hey, another new reader (I only started around the covid pandemic era myself!) I hope you enjoy the journey, the WOT is a wild ride worth taking!

For me, Birgitte Silverbow is definitely high on the list. Off hand, I'm also partial to: Galad Damodred (I guess he's minor?) Bayle Doman Davram Bashere Lady Dyelin Lord Talmanes Olvar Bair Logain Aludra Gareth Bryne Pevara I actually get confused who is considered a minor character because on some online lists I saw Lan as a minor character which really threw me. Lol

Hi there, Prowler! I'm a newbie to DM as well - I started reading the first book Eye of The World during the pandemic era and soon became hooked on RJ's WOT. It's become one of my all time favorite book series. I hope you get the motivation to finish the last book! I found it to be quite a wild ride and overall, I came away satisfied by the conclusion (only sorry to have reached the end of the series!). Maybe we'll discuss some thoughts on WOT soon. 🙂

Interesting, some found the show to look too clean? That certainly isn't the word I'd use - like Emond's Field looked rather grunge imo. Like a dreary mining town in upstate Oregon. Which is interesting if you consider RJ joking about living in the Two Rivers (Charleston, South Carolina) - looking at the rural areas between the Ashley and Cooper Rivers, I totally see the inspiration matching the book atmosphere which was starkly different in the show. Personally speaking - despite my disconnect of how the show displayed (and in most cases deviated) from the source material, the production values, I could have accepted if the core character, themes and story adaptivity been handled differently. The cast was like that for me. I actually liked a lot of the actors fine, and others I might have been okay with had the characters been written like their book counterparts - (with some exceptions like Min, Kae Alexander did not work for me at all, period). IMO The Blight and The Ways were poorly executed - but from what I gather there was some Covid blame to explain why it was the way it was? Something about both felt cheap. My biggest complaint with the production is probably just the lack of differences and loss of distinctive cultures that plays a large role in the books. It made the world feel small, and WOT's setting is anything but small. One place felt much like another imo.

Thanks so much! Because of stuff and things - I'm only just getting around to reading Wind and Truth, only about 15% in so I'll likely have a lot of thoughts on it after I finish it. Lol ^_^ Thanks a bunch! I'm uncertain which Ajah I fit best - The Blues and Yellows are probably my favs! But I won't lie (even within the oath rod 😉 ), I probably would fit a Brown. Games. So many games on Stream, including a ton of Lego games (SW/Clone Wars/LOTR/ Indiana Jones etc) racing games, sports, Overcooked, we seem to keep adding more! Thanks! Also sorry for my late responses here - I've been under the weather and summer seems to create so many extra home projects. I did read your welcomes!

I appreciate the apology - but it's unfair for you to take the full brunt of responsibility for my post. I didn't quote you, because I didn't intend to single you out as the sole perpetrator. While I found the posts in this thread extremely negative, the same is true for the majority of topics in the book section. Having browsed around, reading through topics, I've come to the conclusion that that's just how most discussions on DM are. I suppose, it's always easier to devote time to expressing impassioned dislike, rather than focusing on what is liked and why - WOT is old enough for fans to have talked the books a world over, which I totally understand. As a newbie to the books, I'm still in the honeymoon phase. But there are a host of things that I didn't like or found tedious or whatever - so I'm not pretending I love everything about them from cover to cover (I don't). I'm aware that different opinions are part of fandoms - we all digest stories in different ways and interpret them individually. Which is why the Amazon series had such a huge gap in reception imo. The relationship between a book and reader is complex and intimate. DM has an established community with an established form of discussion, I accept that - but it's not really the sort of discussions I expected to encounter in the majority. The only reason I wound up putting that post here was after backspacing a lengthy reply on the last battle and how it fits the same objectives, strengths and weaknesses of the Battle of Austerlitz (I'm a big history buff). It suddenly occured to me, that it served no purpose to debate the merits of how things went down, list possible reasoning or offer explanations... In doing so, I'd just be adding to the noise. It's a bit like someone saying they hate vanilla ice cream in a waffle cone - should I really bother to say it's my favorite flavor and cone type, and why it's such a great combo? It's not going to change opinions nor should it - it's a matter of taste. I do want to thank you for taking the time to clarify and respond - I appreciate it. I hope my clarification will also make sense. I sincerely wish you the best.

As a newbie to this community, I'm finding a lot of the bitter ranting, misconceptions and snap judgements on these forums a huge turn-off in general. There seems to be an uncommon amount of complaining and hating on the books which seems very odd for fansite devoted to said books. I'm fairly new to the WOT in general, since I only started the series in the Covid pandemic era, so perhaps over the years the love for the books among long-standing fans has waned and disappointments in how the series wrapped up have festered like wounds that never healed. Either way, this kind of discourse isn't really the sort of thing I was hoping to encounter in a fan community. I think I'll go back to reading, and leave it to you guys.

Your response is baffling and honestly, sounds rather rude. You asserted that The Chronicles of Amber was just like WOT and that it was 'two books' in WOT (I didn't even get what you meant there) and that in reading Amber anyone would like it more than WOT - that's your opinion you're entitled to it. Having read the Chronicles of Amber, I disagree that the similarities are anything outstanding compared to most fantasy comparisons on the whole - that is my opinion. I also prefer WOT over Amber. I never once indicated there was not correlation among fantasy writers pioneering the genre, I think that's a given. That was not even mentioned in your OP. I'm assuming you either misunderstood my post or it rubbed you the wrong way - either way, my intent was not to offend you or your sensibilities. However, you are clearly trying to offend me. I'm starting to see a pattern with discussions on DM being mostly people shouting their opinion then getting butthurt or unreasonably angry when someone doesn't agree with them - which kind of defeats the purpose of having a discussion at all.

I think this could be a really cool choice. Utilizing Logain more is definitely something I could get on-board with - especially because of his emerging arc in the books and how he becomes more important. I find Logain super interesting to invest time into.

It's convenient - the way most plot devices in fiction are. xD But there's some good explanations for how it happens in the books - if I'm putting together the facts correctly: The bore is metaphysical place that touches the pattern itself. Unlike the other Forsaken, Ishamael was only partly bound which allowed him to touch the pattern and effect the physical world, I believe the indication is that he was only able to do this every 1000 years or something? Like, the only two instances we see this is the prologue and then later but that doesn't mean he wasn't doing it every however many hundred or thousand years. That's my understanding. He also had access to the True Power, so maybe that played a role as well.

I read Roger Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber years before reading WOT - I found the first book Nine Princes in Amber addicting and enjoyed the following installments to a lesser degree. I can't say the relation between Amber and WOT is any closer than most fantasy tie-ins imo. There's similar themes but arguably the stories and worlds are vastly different. Both have something called The Pattern - but Zelazny's pattern is more abstract and it's an actual pattern that stretches across time and space, which Corwin walks across to regain his memories and experience his past lives (similar to a glass lake) whereas the pattern in RJ's WOT has direct links to Celtic Mythology, where destinies are woven on a loom, Rhiannon's Silver Wheel and the Wheel of Fortune... Etc. Zelazny's tongue-in-cheek narrative could pair nicely with Mat's cynical wit or Lan's dry Ice - but while I thought Amber had some really interesting parts and ideas, it felt more like a corrupted fairy tale borrowing from myths and legends about the Seelie and Unseelie courts, rather than the brand of fantasy in WOT. I mean, Rand, Mat, Perrin and Egwene never went to Kentucky Fried Lizard or attended the Mad Tea Party - both of which occured in the Amber books. Also, the story revolves around Amber being the only real world and the rest of the worlds being shadow worlds - most of the drama surrounds Corwin and his siblings, the dysfunction, their plotting and scheming - the royal family is basically a group of demigods who wander between universes. Don't get me wrong, it's a good story and interesting world building. I just don't see the connection between the two outside of normal fantasy comparisons.

Isn't the topic just a wish fulfillment subject? 'How would you have started the WOT?' not like, this wouldn't work because of this example etc. To my understanding, the topic isn't 'how should the showrunners have started the Amazon WOT?' - it's 'how would you - if you were making an adaption - start it'? Like I said, the start of the show with Moiraine and Lan searching for the Dragon was not a major problem to me - I didn't mind it (next to my far bigger gripes) so I wasn't answering from that standpoint. However... Personally, in this imaginary question context - I would have started WOT with some type of quick setup and a voiceover - that's just my wish fulfillment starter (I would use that any way that fit a budget for the imaginary adaption - be it stained-glass and tapestries in the White Tower, scenes or what have you). The concept of a voiceover setting up the story appeals to me. I prefer a more classic approach that has worked in various media all over the board - because, it's at once easy to relate the story to a fantasy retelling which is ultimately what imo WOT should be.