So kind of doing this in real time as I'm going through the audio books. I'm at the point earlier in Towers of Midnight where Rand meets Egwene in the Tower. Anyway, yeah I can see why she was setup to do that, and why we needed some time with her (although maybe not that much) to get to that point. Her relationship with Rand as a person was a big benefit to that meeting. I've mentioned it before, the Sanderson books seem to put together RJ's notes (I assume, when Sanderson is really on that those are outlines or notes), and it kind of then makes sense with the earlier books as a way to close things out. RJ at some point in book 2-3 realized he'd need more time, started to take that time, went off the deep end in taking time, and then pulled things back together.

Not a huge reader, but I'd agree. Especially the first few books. More targeted towards, IMO, that younger high school reader as a take on a coming of age story. Then the books got expanded into whatever we call a fantasy political novel, but nothing is ever really graphic. So yeah, it's still something that's open to that younger reader.

Actually yes. I do. The later books, after 4 or so, fit in better with the rest of the books. Any magical items from the first two books seem more shoehorned in later than something that would happen organically. So yes, I would go back and tame down the magic and mysticalness in the first 2 or 3 books and make it a consistent story.

fwiw my quick take. Up until the later books they lost the ability to make circles. They also seemed to lose or not train with some powerful weapon weaves that we see later. So sure, it'd make sense they would be around being healers, but it doesn't seem like later where a small circled group of them could fend off a lot. There also were comments that they didn't have the numbers... Also a quick morning take. Aes Sedai evloved in the stories from this female Gandlaf figure into an inverse to the Seanchan. Not inverse being one is good or bad morally, they both are pretty grey or equally bad. But, reading the tower chapters, Aes Sedai are pretty much every bit as restricting and "bad" as the Seanchan. I think as the story goes on this is built up (either on purpose or by accident) so when we get to Tuon (I think it was her) explaining the damane and how they were looked after more like fond pets than what we saw from the other perspective of those who were collared. So looking back I don't think that "The Tower" must mean "good", they are as bad as everyone else. Anyway to me the whole point of these books, again be it happenstance or on purpose, is what happens when people stop working together. The Aes Sedai focused on internal bickering and power moves, and it almost cost them the tower. They come together later, and they (in my current book position) are stronger than ever and in a good spot.

Oh I don't know. He was busy trying to give us a complete world, and exploring that world within the series. It may get long, but we eventually learn about every people and faction, and most of their motivations. Doing it this way meant that there wasn't as much of a need for any companion books or long appendices. We get to read about all of it in time with the characters, and there is something to that. But, if we want to go and label anything inferior. I think the first few books are more out of place and should be updated, and I'd mostly leave the middle and later ones alone. But that's just me.

Just speaking for me, I'm not "dissatisfied", it is what it is and it's been a pretty neat and wonderful time going through the audio books. What I am though is realizing that the world isn't as tight as it could be, and seems to change a lot from a really fantasy mystical type place to more of a regular, maybe 1700's, type world with a magic system and items. So it'd be nice to go back and make it a little more consistent and polished. It's still a great series, and I'd still recommend it.

Just to add to the discussion. I don't mind them that much, and generally I default to taking the position that its the way RJ wanted to tell or evolve his story. That said, I think Egwene and Nynaeve would work better in a short story, like the 3 books planned, than they do in what this all turned into. I get the "old blood" but do we really need 5 main characters from the Two Rivers area? It just seems much, and I'd have rather them fell into more of a Harry Potter style of friendship or band with them all meeting at the White Tower. Thankfully RJ seemed to drop some plans with the other girls from there that came way later, they were seeming to be being propped up for something. I can live with what seems to be the later superpowers of them rediscovering things and stuff. I mean Rand is doing what he is, so it makes sense there are others in this time that can achieve great things.

I guess nothing really specific, just some thoughts as I'm turning the corner into the Sanderson books. I like the Perrin arc in the early books, and the Wolf Dream and stuff is fun. We're in this magical world, dreaming is different, and there are different ways to access those dreams. It's also a fun take on wolves. However, after the first few books I'm not sure how much it adds, and the whole character of Perrin could be re-written to remove the wolves and I don't think much would be lost. I never really liked the Padan Fain story arc and never thought he really added anything. I have to wonder if he was kind of an in-between before the idea of the forsaken really took off, or what. Mat can have the cursed knife, and then it can stay in the white tower - or later turned into a different type of a magical weapon when the Aes Sedai go visit that room and notice it. In hindsight, we don't need the Green Man or a mythical place that appears when you need it most. I can't remember much else being magical like that later in the books. It is fun, and it fits in with the world of the first few books but we really don't need it. That can be written as some town or magical holdout in the Blight, kind of the inverse of Shadar Logoth. Not sure we need as much about the Whitecloaks as we get. No need for those waystones or whatever was in the first book. It was never revisited as far as I can remember. I'd do the ways a waygates a little differently. I don't need two types of traveling, plus the ways, plus the waystones... The dark ones seals could be more or less built in around his prison rather than these quest items that are all over the place. I wouldn't have Loial be a main character, or the Ogier be included as much. They can still be in the world, the Steadings can still be a thing, but more like the Circus rather than main characters. In a way I'd have the story more focused on Rand meeting all these different legends and prophecies about the Dragon Reborn. Him, Mat, and Perrin along with an one or two Aes Sedai can have the adventures that the girls did. Then lastly on my mind or now, and maybe I glossed over this in the audio books. I get why Caemlyn and Andor are important, but we spend all this time on what seems like a side story. I'd treat them more or less like the other city states, or maybe have them associated with a prophecy that Rand can fulfill (I can't remember if there was one, but it wasn't a spinning sword that's not a sword type thing). Whatever the crystal jewelry piece that held one of the forsakens souls or whatever it was. That seemed odd when reading it, also seems out of place, and I'd get rid of it or maybe include it earlier and more. Then I forgot. We have all kinds of different Dark One beasts and creatures, maybe we don't need as many. RJ was a discovery writer, and seemed to wander off the main plot a lot. That's fine, it has it's moments, and it's entertaining. But, the first few books are different than his middle books, are different than 7-9 and then Sanderson picks things back up as best he can. So the above is to get more contentunity and consistency throughout the series. [edit] since I forgot there was a TV show... For TV I'd change the above and then limit the main characters and maybe even limit their scope. I wouldn't try to do to much at once, that works in a book, but not on the screen. I'd also maybe just do something like a Northern Exposure that focuses on the Two Rivers area and run with that for a while.

I guess I can't edit my previous comment, so I'll put this here. I just started The Gathering Storm, and being newer to books (audio) it's my first real transition into both Brandon Sanderson and now a shared authorship over a series or property. Anyway, Brandon does a great job when he is on the ball and good, but yeah, some of it in chapter 15 and even 16 (I'm a little past that now) in my opinion isn't all that great. When he is on it doesn't seem that different from RJ, so I'll overlook the bad parts. Point being is that when I re-read this (well audio book) I'll pay more attention to the slog and RJ's attention to detail within it. Because the books do change a little later when Brandon takes over.

So I'm past the slog in audio books, and I think I can put a finger on why those previous books were a little long. To me there was no sense of time. I thought before because there wasn't a sense of urgency, but it's time. Book 10 talks about the big event from 9, and aligns everything on that time frame. Book 11 carries that on and we see events somewhat immediately after with those characters involved. Plus now we regained the push to the last battle which is starting to loom out on the horizon. I can mentally keep track of where this is going and how everyone fits in. That was missing from books 5 to 6 to 9 or so. Imo

I've been listening to some of the lectures and classes Brandon Sanderson has up. One of the comments that stuck with me on characters was that protagonists aren't always heros. The books, for better or worse, pretty much follow Rand, Perrin, and Mat around. The focus around them and who they interact with is through their perspective and because they ran into whomever. The story could have just as well treated Rand like Logain and focus on the point of view from the Seanchan. Then we'd pick up on Rand and friends as they interact with the Seanchan and then we'd see the Aes Sedai from a different point of view and different opinion. Point being, it's all about perspective on who we may frame as "good" or "well intentioned", because as I said before, none of them are really all that great. For instance the way Aes Sedai treat some of the tower sisters isn't all that far removed from Seanchan and their Damane. I'm not even sure we're meant to like Rand at times... In a way, to expand on my working together comment, it's also the Cowboy BeBop thing of "carry that weight" only in "death is light as a feather, duty heavier than a mountain" (or whatever if that isn't exactly it). On top of that, as we've read with Ta'veren, that they are drawn together by the pattern. In a way we're not even really reading a heros journey with any of them, they are just moving and living towards what the pattern predestined for them and fulfill however the pattern has things turn out, or at least it seems that way sometimes. IMO and an audio book person so apologies if I get name spellings wrong.

I'm going to have a really boring take on this. Perrin has Faile, and it's presented as a pretty strong relationship. Matt has Tuon, which isn't a typical courting or marriage, but it's pretty entertaining to read (for me) and there seems to be a pull there. After all of that, Rand, for the story, needed something more than Min and something more than a strong normal relationship. Earlier RJ expanded the warder bonding to include Elayne & Birgitte, and then did this sister bonding with Aviendha. I think from there he thought the idea of one of them getting married would be interesting to explore, and at that point why not both of them marry the same person and then that person should be Rand. It makes some interesting setups when the marriage happens, and some of the comments from Birgitte were pretty funny. So I think it's all setup to explore the warder bonding, sister bonding, and then to elevate Rands relationship beyond what Perrin and Matt have going for themselves. At least where I'm at a little over or around 3/4 of the way into the books. As with most things I don't think there is any "there" "there" beyond it just being a means to explore the world and magic RJ created.

IMO fwiw... The books, to me, are about men and women working together - which is also expanded to people working and living together - to accomplish great things. The flashbacks we see of the 2nd age are of that, people working together for the benefit of each other. The fall of that age happens when no one trusts each other and does their own thing. This is even at a micro level in Emonds Field. There is a mens group, and a womens circle, both think they are running the town. The Aes Sedai aren't meant to be likeable, in fact no group really is meant to be all that likable. They think they alone know what's best for the world, and they are trying to do that themselves. Nynaeve, Egwane & Elayne included with that. They, now as women channelers, feel that they know what's best and are out to do that. Eventually that does come around, I guess, in the last few books that I haven't got to yet. But, in the meantime, no one trusts each other, everyone thinks they are right, and at parts of the book the challenge is to work together to accomplish something.

So just my thoughts, and maybe taking a different look at this than others. TLDR I think for the grander story RJ eventually got to there were too many main characters and he could have not had a few. It seems like the first few books were a LOTR type adventure set in that kind of magical world where there are strange magical things. We see this in the first few books, places are just there, or things happen, because of magic. For the most part it works well, and for the most part we follow along as the group is split to explore this world more broadly than they could together, and then reunited. I won't get into all of them, but there are a ton of parallels to LOTR, even someone writing a book... Then the 3 of them in the battle at the end of book 2, and it's pretty obvious why they had 3 to start. Then we get into more of a soap opera and grander story that explores what seems to be a more toned down world. We don't really see any more of these Green Man type places or beings, the portal stones take a back seat, the ways take a back seat, among other things. By this time he had a cast of many, and it would have been (I'm guessing) hard to write some out or start over. So we get to see each character go out and explore the world on their own, and the main story is there to kind of move things along but it's really about world building and sight seeing. I also think that along with this we don't see a main religion or belief system that's identified. Other than the wheel spins, and the wheel pulls in people, etc. So in a way it's all predetermined, or it all will be in another wheel spin or another spinning (or whatever the portals explored). I kind of get the reluctant hero, but to me that all ended after book 2 and then we get into world exploring mode. So the characters kind of just do things, and the most we get in some of the later books 7-9 or so is "because they are Ta'veren" and that's that. So getting back to badly written. I just think they are what they are and that RJ may not have had this grand plan getting into the books after 1 and 2. So they kind of go through things and evolve, some come and go, and some of those coming and goings are better than others. One of my complaints, is that what "should" have happened is the books should have been re-tooled and re-written after either the ending or some of the later books. Then the early ones could have made a lot more sense in the later stories, and I think the characters earlier on could have fit in with more where they were going. IMO and I'm just going through the audio books for fun, and they have been fun so far.

Maybe there are more glimpses back to that time that I haven't read about yet, only on book 10 at the moment. So here is my take, and it may be different than others here. Someone brought up in the religion discussion that the main themes to the story is everyone working together. We see this mostly in the split between men and women using the power, but this extends out to everyone. In some of the flashbacks we see a selfless duty to society, especially from those with power. I believe it's even mentioned somewhere that those using the power need to do things that benefit everyone rather than themselves. Maybe we can read into how that pursuit lead too far and the release of the dark one, maybe that was a pure accident. Anyway, since the breaking we see what happens when that trust and duty are broken. No one really trusts anyone else and everyone has their own interests in what I've read up to now. Those interests may intersect, and may be similar, but it's not the place where society was. I'm to the point now where the male source has been cleansed, and that was done by men and women working together. I'm guessing that's going to be a theme, and it seems like the ending shows this as well. Going down a path to return to where things started, I don't know. I do find it interesting that Robert Jordan explores the fall from this kind of steam punk magical world into more of a pre-industrial medieval punk world that the books are set in. Due to the lack of flashbacks, and lack of detail to that time, in a very detailed book, I think the other big take away is that it was a better time, times now aren't as good, and everyone wants to return to a similar time as before - in their own way. As with other things in this series, I don't think RJ knew where the books were going and I don't read into anything more than what's presented on the surface. This is for enjoyment and not for deeper meaning, and I really don't believe anything deeper is even really there. IMO

I think Kramer and Reading do a great job, and at least I don't dislike them. I do have the opinion that audio books are a great way to "read" books, especially for keeping characters straight. On a side note, I do believe the audio books of LOTR are better. Hearing the singing sung gives a new perspective on the importance of song in that universe and the characters.

On a different note, since spirituality was brought up... it seems there isn't really a heaven, more the world of the dead that the dark one rules, as per "his" dream talks in the first few books and especially when he shows rand his mother and or when "he" talks about having rand either living or dead. That's depressing, and was quickly moved away from. So yeah, I just don't take it that deep or that any spiritual meaning is behind a lot of things. It's just a long soap opera that explores that world. Imo

Fwiw it's also mentioned, iirc, there are multiple weaves that mirror countless outcomes. I thought that was part of the way stones that were used in the 2nd book. So the horn, last battle, heros, could have happened in the world we see/read or others. To confuse things more the head dude in Rands school said something about the prison must be closed when the weave returns over that previous spot. Then it doesn't help that the horn is said to have been hidden extremely well (or something I'm not there yet) after this last battle and the prison closed. So I guess there are multiple ways to read into that. At least imo and where I'm at. I'm also guessing it's something the author may have wanted to clean up once it started to grow beyond the first few books. Edit - since I'll reply with this anyway, I really don't take any specific thing seriously or read into anything too deeply. It changes so much and contradicts itself at times. I think of it more as an essay or exploration and a soap opera, and where ideas, magic systems, and this regression from what seems to have been a "modern" medieval-punk world into more of a pre-industrial medieval time. The "loose" story is more a means to expand on those ideas and the world that world than anything. Imo

Honorable mention... The closest I came to seeing parallels was the Tinkers. However I think they were used to setup flashbacks rather than a belief system. From there all the different people's have their beliefs and myths. Rand goes by multiple names... even evil or at least enemies from Rands perspective draw their heritage back to the breaking and events there. Which is why I think everything is more about world building than anything specific. Well other than predetermined and the elect rather than personal choice. Maybe that's the point, and I miss that being Catholic based.

In my opinion, and I'll reread the op in case my mind is changed. The Path of Daggers audio book is on so I don't want to read anything too deep. Anyway my take... Books 1-3 he was exploring a new fun whimsical world where "the wheel weaves" and doesn't explain much. He tells in the prologue what he does, and we see who broke the world and also saw the dark one have some kind of a role. Then we see these characters again in Rand and the same dark one using his previous name. Nothing too deep there, and sets up the world. From there he seems to explore a mostly modern magical world (medieval-punk?) And then what happens when that world is broken and some magical parts lost, and are relearned. He also has more of the world and people of the world than something like LOTR has - or that we read about there. He has some aspects that we could consider as religion, however it also seems pretty passive if not predestination elect vs any free will. Sure the big bad evil seems to be motivated and have free will, but also it seems "the wheel weaves" and the baddies plans are foiled. There doesn't seem to be the active God figure(s) like in Tolkien for instance. I've gone through a pretty extensive Bible class. I don't claim to be an expert on it, I know more than some, can't really quote verse... but anyway I just don't see any deep parallels to at least Christianity. Also worth mentioning in the books, so far, there aren't references to cathedrals or temples. So to me, it's more about the world and the story than any deep found religion, other than "death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain." That's about it. Again in my opinion.

Yeah, agree with this and others. It'd have been nice to go back and rewrite those in light of where things went. That said it's a fun journey and I'm not reading this (well audio book) for anything consise or deep. So the twists and turns are welcome.

I made a similar comment on this on X, and signed up to share some thoughts, although maybe not as specific or in depth as others here. I'm also "reading" the series on audio book, and using it as a replacement for other media. So I welcome the long drawn-out soap opera nature of the books. I'm also only in the middle, so my opinion may change as I get farther or finish. What I would do differently or suggest to the author if I was a friend reading this - before publication... He should go back and rewrite the first 2 to 3 books to fit into where the story went after book 4 or so. The story seems to meander around, and he tries too hard to keep up story lines that maybe shouldn't have been opened in the ways they were. I think I get what he is trying to do, at least with my limited knowledge on ligature (not an English major here), in that he doesn't want the story or world to need all kinds of study guides to help someone through. So I get the details, I get going in depth on things... But, for instance, just my opinion... I don't think we needed P. Fain running around with the dagger. I don't think we needed 5 of them, plus others, leaving in the first book. I think Perrin could have been left out. All of this was fine in a limited series of 3 books, but it's just way too much to juggle once the main story gets going.