I can see why RJ set things up the way he did, then how Sanderson wrapped it up. It just seemed RJ didn't know how he wanted to get there, and yeah, those chapters and that journey took way way longer than it really needed to.

Kind of in hindsight as far as how I'm almost finished with the books. None of the prophecy makes sense. I mean maybe, as you said, if they were using these tools, but then why wouldn't they have written it down? Then with Rands memories, he would have been the start of some of these prophecies, but doesn't know a different way to close the prison off the bat? Callendar (spelling?) being created, but no one thought of at the time for how it "needs" to be used, but created it anyway? It's just all covenant, and kind of plot armor in a way. Don't get me wrong, I still like the story, but as I've said before here a few times it just doesn't go that deep and it's best taken as a daily soap opera or something than a complete tight story.

Honestly though, this is something RJ does well in the books. I think it helps that we got to see Mat getting his prophecy and abilities, so we know what others may have got as far as answers. So I don't mind that part at all.

Well and it goes back to my rant or soapbox about it not really being a tight story with any deep background. RJ just seems to have a good idea, writes it in the story, and then sometimes we don't hear about it again or it is covered for somehow in a way. I don't mind it, but it does bring up interesting questions sometimes.

Well just the whole lack of urgency between she disappears, to when they finally gear up and go to rescue her. It seems years, at least to me, to the point where I don't know why or remember why Mat feels any connection with her. The character of Mat being Mat and not wanting to read that letter (and another one later iirc) is different.

It may have been explained in a later book too, but my take on it from that is this is kind of a mirror of the TEL dream world with somewhat the same rules. We also get to see a description of a similar terangereal type thing in later books, and it turns out (iirc) that it's something completely different and/or way more complex. So who knows what it is, if it's another whole world like TEL that others can be in, or if it's limited to the single person and whatever sceneros are given to them, or what. But no, not real. Also, don't they wash the person and tell them to forget what happened and don't tell anyone? So it'd make sense that it's not real, and not telling of the future or anything, it just is what it is for whatever test the person is going through.

That's as good of an answer as any. Kind of goes along with the "it's evil to go fully into TEL dream world" but never really explaining why - although that also came from Rand and his greater memories, so it's "older" than whatever with the columns.

Some of their story was pretty fun, or how they happened into eachother and then escaped. But yeah mostly agree. The letter didn't make sense to me, as well as when Moraine comes back. She had been gone for what seemed to be so long, without (at least to me) a sense of time of how long she was actually one, that her coming back and that letter just seemed out of place. I do get where RJ and BS were going with that, and I like the concept of Mat going back to get her and how he was setup for it. But, like a lot with this story, the timing and lack of urgency or a sense of time is way off. I mean, if I recall somewhat correctly, the last 3 books happen over a month or two with the 1 month deadline happening soon once the BS books start. So what you're reading can only be a handful of months away from the end, and RJ just never gives a sense of that.

In the last book I think, finally, that Brandon Sanderson got a hold of that concept. However, it would have made more sense tying it into "the old blood" and having some of the girls share that. It seems he wanted some concept for those who can't channel to have some kind of powers, or who would be re-woven into the weave at times. It just gets much with all that's going on.

I watched a lot of his talks and lectures online a few months ago. It was interesting getting his perspective as a very successful author, we're about the same age, and he seems pretty personable. Anyway, I think he basically said as much as far as it being about marketing. There is more to it as far as writing style and stuff, but if it's on the border it can go both ways. Which makes sense, authors, publishers, stores need to make money.

So I got to that part last night, started thinking about it, and I have some questions and thoughts. Why was it prohibited to go through a 2nd time? So this would have been a thing after the breaking of the world, and after the Aiel would have settled down there. I can't remember if the columns were what they were safekeeping in their exile, or if they were just there and then the city built around them, or if the whole thing was just there and the Aiel found it. Point being though they were in the service to the Aes Sedai before the bore hold and before the breaking, and I'm assuming at that point that the glass columns weren't a thing. So who did it twice and what was the story? I'm assuming they were already in exile, so it wouldn't have been seeing them go into the waste and living there. I don't think anything was eluded to in their past as far as any other large disaster. I'd assume then if it was just "you'd see your future" that it would just be a warning of just that, and not a blanket only go through once. I'd also assume, since if it was that disastrous, and came true, that there would have been legends about it passed down that would have turned into prophecy. Kind of like when the men go through it, they see a shared or similar vision of the past and can confirm it later. So I just don't know what the warning was about, why it would have been there, and what to think about what she saw. I do find it perplexing that she makes a comment or the book says "she is disappointed because she knew what she would see". Then she finds it more complex than she thought from touching it, and it showed her something she didn't expect or didn't want to see. Going through a 2nd time then also showed her something she didn't expect and didn't want to see. So maybe having a clear mind and not knowing what to expect is to then get what's expected? Dunno. It does have similarities with Nynaeve going through her test for the shawl, in that she was pretty powerful and knowledgeable at that point. It also gets back to Mat asking more questions than he should have, or even going back to the tower of Ghenje to rescue Moiraine. Then maybe it is the truth, and we're just seeing everything setup for the Seanchan to take over. But, that's depressing, and not the way everything else is being setup, and if that's the case why write the story in the perspectives we have. It's just a story, I don't care, but it's depressing. It also doesn't make sense, because the Aiel seemed to be pretty status quo once they settled in exile, and what could have been seen, and come true, to prohibit a 2nd trip. Then finally, although not a deep book spiritually there are some Biblical references here and there. Moses striking the rock a 2nd time had the consequence that none of them could see the promised land. Since this was in reference to the Messiah being pierced a single time, rather than twice. Moses screwed that up, and paid a price for it. So this whole thing could just be that, but it seemed more a warning than a command. Anyway, I'm sorry that's long, it was just an interesting question. Maybe it's simple, or maybe it's explained in the rest of this book or the next or the prequel. I didn't search for it, more in a writing mood this morning than reading, but if it's been answered before I'd be more than happy to read those threads.

Sorry to pop up again here, I'm at the disadvantage of not having read the complete series, and am going through the last few books now, and the prequel after that. I'm in Towers of Midnight just after the "battle" in TEL. Shortly after Perrin and Egwene meet, she basically has a battle of wits with a forsaken and ends up besting them. A few things were interesting from that battle and encounter. She realizes that she IS the White Tower and IS the Amyrlin, and then makes a comparison between what she is going through in TEL and the test for the shawl that she had been a part of but never did. I thought that was a great way to elevate her up, have her turn the corner, and really become what she had been saying she was. Still, maybe this could have come sooner, or she could have been written a little different so that there wouldn't be an opinion that she didn't earn anything or shouldn't be that connected. Also my comment about extending TV status to her and a few others stands, that would go along way to helping all of this. But, when Sanderson is on he is on, either with notes from RJ or not. Having Egwene go through that, is a time when he was on. At the same time, I still don't know why the story needed Slayer and the Wolf Dream hasn't really paid off, I get the encounter between Perrin and Egwene and that TEL is the same for everyone, but still Slayer is a bit much.

I was going to say he saved TV for those who couldn't channel, but then Rand is one... I thought originally, someone commented that he wanted MORE TV's from the Two Rivers, and was talked out of it. Maybe in re-doing that he then removed the girls from it. Because after what Mat and Perrin turn into, the girls should totally be included on that level, and actually more of them. But, he didn't, and we have what we have. I do wonder where RJ took his detour away from an urgent last battle. Because we spend a lot of time with her, as you said, with the Seanchan and with the Wise Ones. Some books read more as a manual to the world of dreams than anything else. Can't really do an immediate "last battle" if you want to go and explore other stuff. Anyway, there were some younger Amyrlins and we read that their history has been cherry picked a little to what regular rand and file Aes Sedai learn about or know. So maybe she isn't as unusual, and it is a political position with the reasons for choosing her explained. She and friends were away when the split happened. But yeah, her ownership seems a bit odd thinking back at it. Which is why she should fall under the TV umbrella, and then it would all make more sense.

I get what RJ was going for, even if it's a little cliche for a short story and doesn't fit in the longer story. We have these lost, "old blood" folks in the Two Rivers that have been found, and are destined to greatness in the greater world. The problem was RJ took way too long to get to the point, and as you said, it seems odd when you really sit down and think about it. On a similar note kind of. It's like when Nynaeve is finally raised to the shall. Looking back it's pretty petty, since she totally has the powers to have earned it, knows the weaves, and helped cleanse the male power. I get that they wanted the scene it eventually was, but it really didn't need to happen. I finally did like that use of TAR. It's a nice change from the book(s) learning about it, and then the book(s) of everyone taking a gateway everywhere... So it's nice to see one of RJ's ideas mature and be used pretty reasonably.

My bad, I thought it was the DO in the prolog and then in the first few books, I'll have to change that opinion now to Ishy. However, that doesn't really change much else. To me the general forsaken are kind of the counter to what gets setup with our main characters who can channel. The "good" has powerful members, so does the "bad". I get there was more squabbling between the forsaken (well and the good channelers too for that matter) but I think that was more for RJ to do more with them. Ishy destroying the whole pattern is a good thought. We see Rand tempted with this, and I have no reason to doubt he could have done that, before turning away and laughing - or however that went. So that's a good compare and contrast in characters. Although at that point why have a DO and or why have a good god figure that's not involved. I'd think the struggle, if the whole universe was at stake, would involve a supreme power that didn't want that to happen... Unless RJ was trying to setup the invisible hand that guides events in something like LOTR. Which is my suspicion, but he never really turns the corner on it and gets there. I should edit this quick and say that in reading about Ishy on some wot wiki it mentions that he finally thought the DO didn't change in each spinning and was destined to fail. This kind of reminds me of LOTR and the defeat of Morgoth. However there we seem to have a bit more lore and legends supporting who they were, the power they had, and why they were able to fall than in wot. So maybe that's what RJ was getting at, but still there is a lot going on.

I don't think there really was one, and I think RJ made a mistake in the first few books when the DO claims to control the underworld (or however it was phrased). Which then setup a really weird system of hands off good god, but a very hands on bad god that controls what we would consider all of the afterworld. Maybe in the original story line there is some redemption there where the DO would be barred from controlling this and letting all souls be free, maybe not. It's also interesting because the first few big battles in the first few books had Rand magically transport to fight the DO in various places. We don't see that again. I have a feeling the original storyline had a last battle that was similar with mysticism and then was refashioned later as books 3-4-5 got going. We also see the portal stones not be used, no more mystical people or places like the Green Man, so the story is toned down a lot from where it started. As I'm getting farther into the "new" Sanderson books, as I've mentioned before, I can see how RJ could have wanted to wrap things up after the first few books but just needed more time and then got bogged down. Which leads to the "bad guys" as far as the forsaken. I think that was a retcon once RJ figured he'd need some kind of struggle and conflict as he built up the characters for the last battle. This is where we start to see whoever fit into the role as the DO in the first few books - at least it seemed to be that WAS meant to the DO originally... So them not having a defined role or struggle makes sense, because they could have just been there to be there and not anything more. I mean RJ may have seen this and then started this nablis system to rank them and give them something to bicker over. I don't really feel any of this takes away from the story. It's still worth a read and a person can find some great action scenes and moving moments in these books. But, there isn't going to be a moral epiphany or anything really deep to take away, other than "death is light as a feather, duty heavier than a mountain".

But at the same time, and maybe you meant this with that last sentence. The good guys score wins, eliminate forsaken, and are generally winning. Sure it could be plot armor, but RJ is hinting that this time in this age is weaving in people who are as powerful as those in the past. Which again is an interesting take on things. After we get done with the DO stuff in the first few books, it falls back on basically regular people with powers, and we get to see those people have limits, make mistakes, or at least aren't infallible. Which is a little different than spiritual beings in human form sent or representing whatever good or bad god figures are there. He just never takes it that next step or seems to have anything underneath it to support what's going on on a theology or spiritual level. But anyway, he writes action really well, and it will be nice to dwell more on the details the next time I read this. Even if it's boring at times.

Trying to keep this quick, but just to agree with that. He comes so close to putting a lot of things together. The DR, Taveren, Horn of Valere, and even male channelers hearing voices (to me to imply they could be reborn or reliving someone), but then (I have a few books to go) RJ never really turns the corner and puts it all together.

Kind of my broken record comment lately about a sense of timing. We hear now and then that Rand is in a hurry, that the last battle is coming up, and time is running out. But, we never get a sense that either anyone is taking that seriously, or a deadline for when the battle will take place. I guess, if my memory is correct, we see some kind of an urgency in book 3 but then that's all lost. As far as Rand really turning the corner and driving events, to me that really starts to happen around the end of Gathering Storm. I mean he is doing things, obviously, before that time, but that's when he really transcends and takes control. But yeah, to me the point of these books is vaguely that "everyone needs to get along" and what happens when all these groups don't trust each other. I'm not to the end of the end yet, but more in the middle of the end, and like you said, there is a lot of muddling around still.

It has everything to do with my last point. Her coming back "last minute" makes more sense if the middle "the slop" books only covered a few months and if the story took place in half the time it ends up taking. Then her going through the portal, to coming back would only be months rather than whatever it is, and that timing would then make more sense that she is last minute to the last battle after a year or so or whatever it really is. That's why I'm critical of the sense of time and urgency in these books. Not to the point where I don't enjoy them, or wouldn't re-read them, but it turns into more a serial or soap opera than a story that builds up with some level of purpose or urgency to this last battle. As far as your point about bringing her back, and I could have said this before, but I understand why Gandalf came back and I don't mind her coming back. In a way it makes sense she would still be alive, since that portal went to a place and not to the void or whatever.

I think I'm in book 10 or 11, whichever one Towers of Midnight is. I was talking more about losing a sense of time before the cleansing, or in the slop. It's been a while now so my memory of books 1-5 and events is a bit hazy, but it seemed that for the most part the story was moving forward. Then we get into the slop, and there weren't really any events to connect anything together. On top of it all, like I could have mentioned, we have this "last battle" hanging over, which at that point is less than a year away, but we would never tell by how the characters are acting. Once we get the cleansing, that is used as an event to at least tie that next book together timeline wise. So, and to me and I could be wrong, it covers mostly a month or so and each separate story in that book ends with someone noticing that event. I thought that was a neat way to tie everything together and that it worked well. My main critique with the ending books now is that we went from "the slop" through the cleansing, and now we have this "30 days" come up. So to me as a reader, we went from exploring this world with the "last battle" more or less serving as a bookstop end point when we get there, to "OMG it's here". Which was pretty jarring. I do get that Sanderson wanted to put an end point to this, and not just write books, and maybe the 30 days was the plan all along. But, I personally would have liked to have come into the ending with a little more of a ramp up. Finally too, although I can't grasp it completely, I can start to get a sense of where RJ was going before he detoured off. For instance, starting the ending books or even the cleansing right after Moiraine went through the portal would really make sense with the condensed timeline. Then too, why would the Whitecloaks care 2 years after something happened, I get it, but still that makes sense if we don't have all "the slop" in the middle and let it be less than a year. Even Mat and Perrin not meeting up, makes sense if they never had time to. I do appreciate all the books, and the time RJ took, don't get me wrong, but it just doesn't come together as a really tight story that's all.

My broken record repeating comment on audio books. For me I think they are superior, for no other reason than the readers give characters their own style of speech, and it's easier to keep things apart. Without this it's easy to see block of text and loose any quirks or personality traits of the character in an effort to read through that paragraph or chapter. Historically too, books or stories were read to an audience, and I still seem to be wired to that. Then to mention, although off the topic a little from WOT. As cringe or cheesy as it is, audio books will show songs, lyrics, and poetry better (at least for me) than reading out of a book. Because it's easy to see text and not try to put it to song or give it anymore meaning. In LOTR for instance, the audio books bring out all the song in those stories and all of a sudden characters like Bombadil don't really stick out anymore than the Ents or others. I'm in the process of buying the books, and eventually I may go back and read them, but I really enjoy and am happy with the audio book format.

From what I can remember, I liked how the cleansing served to put all the separate stories on the same timeline. Before this we really didn't have any sense of where in time everyone was, so at least it was nice to see some perspective. So it went better for me that way, than some of the books before.

My only comment about the Black Tower and those schools. There wasn't much of a sense of time, or didn't seem to be much of a sense of time. He setup the Black Tower, with a comment in there of "teach them quickly we don't have time" and then we got at least another few helpings of circus chapters later or the bowl of winds... In the last few books there is a 30 day until the last battle time limit, which now seems rushed, and we hear a lot about "2 years" (I bet this drove Sanderson crazy too, to be honest), so everything starts to fit in.

Well it felt rushed at first, with this "last battle" being brought up as something recent in the first few books. Then things balloon out without a real sense of time. I'm on Towers of Midnight now, and it's odd to now see a timeline set (as you said maybe for sanity of Brandon S. than anything else) that's pretty assertive compared to reading about a circus and the bowl of winds for chapters on end. Maybe it needed another book or two at the end, but then I'm sure more of that would have been Brandon making the books his own and adding more of his things, than trying to follow whatever notes and outlines were there. Back to the topic. I haven't got to that part of the books. I'm the kind of person who understands why Gandalf comes back, so that's fine at least. Time will tell for me if it's rushed or not. Although where I'm at now we're 30 days out and she hasn't been rescued, so this does seem more last minute than it needed to be.