I didn't say they never interacted with their own family, but that they never interacted casually. Lan was treated as a king (a uncrowned battle king of the Malkieri) from birth, and Moiraine was from very high nobility in Cairhien - you know how Cairhienins are 😉

As you will read later in the series, Moiraine is the archetypal Blue Ajah Aes Sedai : yes her life is dedicated to fight the Shadow and more, but it is not tempered by empathy. And Lan would be the same, he is very much the archetypal silent badass.

So yes, they are not accustomed to deal with teenagers (what with being on the road since 20 years) - and fail to take basic empathic approach to the "sheepherders". Both of them were born into high nobility and never interacted casually even with their own family. And they are from very different countries than the Two Rivers.

It's not that Robert Jordan failed to create the ultimate sorceress with Moiraine : he designed her exactly as needed so they would be wary, but with very good reasons. Exactly as intended.

15 hours ago, Aut-astic said:

This man went on SO MANY adventures. Then he had the time to write epic stories about those adventures.

I recall other parts of the series where  having so much adventures is normally on par with what Warders are doing. Or Min's viewings about Warders and Aes Sedai, they have so much adventures...

So Jain Farstrider seems to me like someone having a lot of adventures, yes - but this is also the usual for Warders. Or ta'verens.
 

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Deals with the gholam, when they are a huge challenge to deal with. We know he cannot have used the one power but what in the world did he do?

 

Seems to me Jain Farstrider as a hero would be a match for a Gholam - like Mat or Lan.

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Catches fish with his bare hands by sitting still and waiting in a river. We saw Moiraine do this previously and she described it as "an old Aes Sedai trick". 

Could be an Aes Sedai trick or a fisher's trick - as Moiraine could very well have been taught by her pillow friend years before - Siuan Sanche.

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Jain Farstrider is none other than Lews Therin Telamon, called Kinslayer. Like Rand, he is given a new body following his confrontation with the dark one. This new body doesn't have access to the one power but can basically bend the strands of the pattern to his will. (Like we see Rand lighting his pipe without the use of the one power at the very tale end of the series.) Hence knowing what a gholam is and being equipped to deal with it. Would also explain why he knows an old Aes Sedai fishing trick.

Seems to me a bit too much. Even when he stays behind to die in the Tower of Ghenjei, he stays in character as a malkieri.

It seems to me Jain Farstrider could be a true hero with a touch of ta'veren, or one of those "lucky" heroes, an untaught wielder of the One Power who never fully understand their power and live dangerous lives.

I have another idea for Nakomi :

You need 3 Aes Sedai to power the same kind of ter'angreal in the White Tower than the glass columns used for chieftains and Wise Ones in Rhuidean.

Nakomi could be an Aes Sedai within the Jenn Aiel, the one responsible for powering the ter'angreal in the glass columns - as Aviendha is the first one to come to pass through the glass columns after the mess done by al'Thor, Nakomi would have discussed with her and then setup the glass columns to show the future.

edit: and the same as the Dragon Reborn, I guess Nakomi would be reborn time after time, as the true Keeper of Chronicles - it may have been an epic exploit to keep the Aiel on track after so much time.

I guess there's a third possibility alongside Padan Fain and Lanfear : Rand's own untamed powers at the time. A bit like the first chapter of TBH, whenever Rand is trapped by winds while training with Lan.

And it is also explained by Semirhage that some definitely hear voices from the past - and that they always went insane in this case (well, not the Dragon Reborn).

They definitely hear each other whenever Rand tries to escape from the box at Dumai's Well.

edit: ah, whenever Lews Therin was alive ? I don't think he would be able to hear Rand's voice from the future, but maybe he was able to hear the voice from a previous avatar of the Dragon Reborn. And we know from Lews Therin himself that in Rand's time he was better raised.

Lews Therin's madness seems to have been some kind of amnesy though - I don't think he was protected from the Taint and crumbled under it. I guess he never reconciled with his previous incarnation then, and it may have been his greatest secret. 

On 6/23/2022 at 1:46 AM, Gypsum said:

Here's my question. One of Rand's Rhuidean visions or whatever went back to the Age of Legends. It looks technologically advanced -- they have things that could be cars, planes, firearms, etc. The Breaking of the World happens, which sends everyone back to the 16th century, socially, politically, technologically. Fair enough. All your male channelers have gone nuts and blown up the world. Pretty much a nuclear apocalypse. But Rand's rise to power happens 3000 years after the Breaking. Why have these people not advanced past the 16th century in 3000 years? Aludra and Mat discover that gunpowder is useful for more than fireworks in the final books, but no one in the previous 3000 years worked that one out?

tl;dr : The Weave (and Forsaken) Did It. Note that even in our modern world, we didn't recover all marvels done by the romans like the unbreakable glass shown to one Roman Emperor in the first century (he killed the inventor so it would not compete with current glass making techniques owned by his family).

I think that just after the Breaking, some parts of Randland kept advanced technology for some time, time to finish the Choedan Kal, grow the Ways, setup new Ogier stedding or setup the ter'angreal in Far Madding - maybe even the Bowl of the Winds. At the same time, all male Aes Seday wreak havoc during 500 years... Which caused : 

- the Breaking itself, with mountains being flattened or ocean floors raised above sea level... 

- after the Breaking, I guess Tar Valon being constructed by Ogiers and with the One Power

- remaining female Aes Sedai being restricted with Oaths - including not forging weapons for war - by a device intended for criminals during the Age of Legends ! 

- total number of Aes Sedai being reduced drastically over time

- lost knowledge about the One Power 

So for a long time there may have been no incentive to develop technologies are there were still One Power practitionners to ease your life. Life got better some times, but Forsaken meddling insured that humanity was never under only one government for a long time.

I wonder when the Jenn Aiel disappeared in fact. 300 years ago ? more ? As the last Aiel true to the path, and having protected Avendesora and a lot of angreals since the Breaking, there should be so much Ji in Aiel society for them... Maybe she is the one seen in chieftains' visions ? Or there is a secret society of Jenn Aiel infiltrated in all Aiel tribes ?

There's also the option to play The Wheel of Time Roleplaying Game , if you are into tabletop RPG. Where you can run amok to play any future to the series ?

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Equally, either Tylin is 1) Luca and is misreading Mat or 2) she doesn't care either way.  I'm with 2) for Tylin.

I guess my position was more that they are both misreading each other, with Mat being an unreliable narrator (Tylin thinking that Mat is such a slut to always stare at her bosom and grinning, clearly he's showing interest - not knowing that Mat does so with everyone, unlike Ebou Dar males)

Your position makes more sense than mine as I think about it :

- the aim of this relationship was to somehow show that boys chasing women without seeing no as a valid answer is definitely wrong

- to do so, RJ does a role reversal, where Mat is pursued by Tylin

- so whenever the (male) reader empathizes with Mat's galores, he can reflect that he would not like being pursued to such an extent. Wait - is it how girls see overbearing boys in the real world ?

So Tylin being overbearing and forcing herself on Mat is more serious and compares easily to the real world : the moral being don't be overbearing jerks and ask.

Whereas both of them in a quid pro quo is simply humorous : the moral here would be to not limit yourselves to appearances and behavior, damn ask the other one to avoid cultural misunderstandings.

Or both positions can be seen as valid, as both morals are great in fact ?

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

IIRC The only sexual liaison he has in the series before Tylin is with Melindhra, the Aiel maiden who approaches him.

There's a quote above about Mat's pursuing a lot of girls in Emond's Field and having a knack to pursue even the more improbable ones, as remarked by Egwene. On the other hand, still in EF, we have Nynaeve forcefully punishing and marrying an unwed couple caught in the act... And once out of EF, who knows what Mat has done to grin to all passing maids afterwards.

Anyway : I agree that Mat is never described as a rapist, but as Elayne said, he got a taste of his own medicine. I guess Mat's reputation was already sour with her, as told by Egwene and Nynaeve before - especially Nynaeve. There may have been some broken hearts in EF after all, to explain Nynaeve's distaste. Or we can suppose that Nynaeve's views were too conservative, as she was EF's moral compass.

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Sorry this got so long ?

I am enjoying the conversation nonetheless ?

16 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

I'm curious as to why you think we should clearly see him as an unreliable narrator. 

With Jordan, I feel that most inner dialogues from WoT's main protagonists are clearly written somewhat tongue-in-cheek, to show that how they perceive themselves and how what are effectively doing are two different things. 

Nynaeve obviously wears the same clothes than in Emond's Field somewhat and has never changed, Perrin is no lord, Mat is no hero, Elayne is not a glutton nor reckless. And during the girls' adventures, they don't enjoy clothes and are obviously wearing the same clothes than others.

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For example, he moves Olver into the anteroom to his chambers so Tylin, who has stolen or made a copy of the key to his room, will refrain from sneaking in on him when he's asleep.

And he stays in the palace because he has to protect Nynaeve, Elayne and Aviendha, as he promised to do so to Rand. And he would not displease Tylin by being impolite. And the Pattern conspires so he doesn't find any room outside.

...remember he doesn't see the 3 girls for days, even weeks in the Palace ? And he even says they should have an escort whenever they go outside, but they are safe enough inside.

He would not displease Tylin... since when Mat is polite ? It's because she has a son, Beslan, which could attack him afterwards, and Mat typically doesn't like dangerous situations.

He doesn't find any room outside... well he could anyway (Mat is more than resourceful), but the palace feels more comfy, even with Tylin's shenanigans.

so it's why I see Mat as an unreliable narrator, his justifications don't hold sway. And there's more afterwards, whenever Mat doesn't like Tylin's Toy clothes. Not even a little lace.

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Are you suggesting that Mat's an unreliable narrator so this didn't happen or that secretly Mat wanted Tylin to pursue and catch him? 

Nor the first nor the other, I feel that a lot of things are left unsaid. Mat's behavior around Tylin for example, as we know he is very prone to leering, even if he thinks he is ogling girls "safely and properly".

If we say that Tylin is a female counterpart to Mat, her too should have an uncanny knack for picking women who wanted to be chased. 

And obviously Mat didn't want to be chased : it's something he didn't even conceive. He was definitely attracted by Tylin nonetheless. 

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You also seem to be saying Mat didn't do enough to struggle or fight back, which I think gets dangerously close to victim blaming.

As I said before : nowadays we are a lot more attuned to consent and power issues. Things must be clearly said so there's no misunderstandings. But it was not the case whenever the book was written.

We don't have any chapter with Tylin's POV, and it's clearly missing here.

So yes, obviously we can see Tylin as a rapist because she forces herself on Mat, and we have no consent described in the book. Which can also means that Mat is as much a rapist than Tylin, what with all the girls he chased at home and since... I prefer to think that there was an unsaid consent, the same way I feel that Starbuck in Battlestar Galactica or Templeton Peck in the A-team were not written as rapists.

If the aim of this arc was to generate more awareness about consent and power issues for boys, I agree that the other side of the coin was to generate uneasiness for victims.

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The "you wanted it really" line is used to justify overcoming someone's refusals to participate and is really an attempt at self-justification. Tylin uses it as do those who extort from others what they don't give willingly.

The trope of having an uncanny knack for picking those who wanted to be chased, the idea of a chase even, needs to die in a fire. It could work positively in the 80s, nowadays not so much.

Having Tylin chasing and boxing Mat into a corner, menacing Mat with a dagger with no consent is definitely wrong. With today's sensibilities, this arc should be rewritten to take into account victim sensibilities, I concur. And I think having Tylin's POV would have sufficed to show disconnects between Mat's behavior and his inner thoughts.

Once upon a time, you could have playboys characters with ''an uncanny knack for picking women who wanted to be chased'. This was the gimmick for Starbuck in the old Battlestar Galactica , the same actor in the A-team, for example. I feel Mat is clearly under this trope, and it's why having him setup in another culture where women do the chasing was also light-hearted. Because Mat may say (internally) that he is the chaser, but he also likes being chased - to his surprise.

And this used to be a good trope - because it was against a conservative society where no one was supposed to have sex before marriage, or denied women any sexual freedom. Something which is not true in Randland AFAIK.

I feel like we are also supposed to know that Mat is clearly an unreliable narrator : what he says and what he does are not the same. With his skill with knives, who can think Tylin would be able to best him... or that a mere queen would be able to make a ta'veren a powerless prisoner.

Nowadays ? We are a lot more attuned to consent and power issues, and it's why we can see Tylin as a predator - but with our own cultural lenses, and Mat as an unreliable narrator. 

I don't think Jordan could have expected society to shift this way in twenty years - or he would have written Tylin more subtly I guess. I feel Tylin was supposed to be a female counterpart to Mat, not a rapist.

I think I can remember somewhere Egwene saying she can't go back to EF right now, that she would need 10 years as Amyrlin before being able to go back to EF - but as an Amyrlin. In the last 3 books. But I may be wrong...

As for Perrin : he comes off as very distinct, with slow manners and slow ponderings, but being able to go to the crux of the issues nonetheless. His relationship with Faile however... I understand why it's not to the taste to all readers. But well, there are all kind of relationships described in WoT, so I don't count it against Perrin himself. After all going to mere apprentice blacksmith to ruthless lord to wolf leader to greatest one in Tel'aran'rhiod is metal enough.

Book 1 : Once Mat got Shadar Logoth's dagger, I guess he was somewhat cloaked : with the same dagger we see Padan Fain able to escape the Dark One's influence and becoming an independant (but evil) entity, and Rand is somehow saved with his side wound because the 2 evils are fighting each other.

Book 2 : Mat is still under the dagger's influence, and sounds the Horn of Valere, which could also cloak him

Book 3 : he is healed but now has holes in his memory - difficult to find him in dreams...

On 2/8/2022 at 8:57 PM, Red Eagle said:

Finally, and this is just an opinion of mine. After all the fear, committed murders, and destruction Perrin's personally witnessed the Whitecloaks cause, the fact he keeps belaboring his guilt over killing two men who intended (at best) to turn him over to torturers on the basis of personal opinion, made this plot-point one of the weakest/most infuriating in the entire series for me.  The 11th hour attempt to rehabilitate the WCs by implausibly making Galad their leader also grated on me. It was like Sanderson (or RJ, if this was in his bequeathed notes) was simply whitewashing all the evils perpetrated by the WCs as a terrorist organization. 

 

Thoughts?

 WCs feel a bit like Teutonic Knights, but it was basically the only political entity dedicated to opposing the Shadow in southern Randland - alongside the White Tower. Northern countries have to battle the Blight anyway. Afterwise it feels like some leadership failures, be it from Pedron Niall or Asunawa. 

Moreover, we are talking about a fantasy world where there are 2 kinds of people : nobles and commoners, with the only outliers being Aiels, Atha'an Miere and the Aes Sedai. So the WCs were also a mean to keep nobles on their toes - killing commoners like Tear nobility is doing is not possible further north.

On 2/2/2022 at 3:29 PM, EmreY said:

"You foolish boy," sighed Cadsuane.  "You know I told you to be polite."

 

She then hit Rand over the head with her stick and slapped him across the face.

 

"Why won't you laugh?" she asked.  "You asked me to help you but I cannot if you will not laugh."

 

Cadsuane then slammed her stick down on the upper arch of his foot.  As Rand hopped around in pain, she thought: At least I got him to cry.  My work here is progressing well, as should be expected of the wisest of the wise Aes Sedai.  I must now reflect on what more I can do to increase the al'Thor boy's empathy for others, because if he continues to resist my wholly reasonable efforts the result may be dire.  He must learn to laugh, he must.  Perhaps, she thought, if she could bring him to the point of murder, he would finally do so.

As I just read again Cadsuane's reactions in the Gathering Storm : I always felt that there's some kind of missed opportunity with this character : she hunted a lot of male channelers, then had them reconcile with their status as madmen (as they live longer than those captured by the Red Ajah). So she should have more empathy. She understands what is Rand's problem as fine as Min, Sorilea or Aviendha in the same chapters (intellectually), but her only means are to be a no-nonsense grandmother-like figurehead sticking to outdated politeness.

Maybe it worked for all other male channelers before (I guess she captured them and behaved like a mother figure, which is more empathy than being captured by misandrist Reds), but she should not be so daft as not seeing that there's already Min and Nynaeve trying to appeal to Rand - Nynaeve especially is not far from the same role.

11 hours ago, Graendals favourite said:

 Be'lal was a swordmaster, so he sneered at the beginners attempts at this craft or artform, also this wounded Andoran who thought to teach it.

I think it would contradict some other discourse where Be'lal says to Rand to remember whenever they tried a tame sport (swords) during the Age of Legends and recreated forms to kill with swords again.

So I would say Third Age swordmasters should be way above Age of Legends practicionners, experience wise : they can build on generations of swordmasters, while it was a "new" skill during the War of Power. Well, maybe Be'lal had some centuries to practice nonetheless.

So sneering at sword training would match much more a third age male drunk with the Power than Be'lal.

3 hours ago, Asthereal said:

Be'lal got hit by Moiraine's balefire at the end of book 3. Shouldn't be able to come back from that.

 

For me, Taim is the antithesis of Logain. Logain is kind of a backup Dragon and Taim seems to be a sort of backup Ishamael, should all the Forsaken fail and the Shadow have need for new leadership on the ground.

Another explication for remarks about "so-called Aiels" and knowledge on Taim's part could be that he was a Darkfriend for a long time and coached personnally by a Chosen - by Ishamael maybe ?

On 1/3/2022 at 3:24 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

TLDR; I think the way Rafe and Co. are going to tell the Wheel of Time is through everyone’s PoV, except Rand’s, with the focus on the various women in his life. The others will get solid PoV’s, but Rand’s solo stuff will be very limited. All the talk about untrustworthy narrators is because we won’t know what’s going on in Rand’s head, and most everyone will be wrong.

If we go by the first season : we won't have Perrin nor Mat's PoV also. Perrin's shared thoughts with wolves are pretty much unknown in the TV series. As first season was all about Moiraine's PoV, it could continue this way a long time.

So you would have the 3 male taverens disrupting everyone's "reasonable" plans while traveling all over Randland - while the 2 female taverens, back in the White Tower, would be the catalyst to the Tower split.

You can follow this path at least until end of season 2 (book 2 & 3), and even later...

edit: Moiraine has done a lot of things in books which were never described : being from Laman's family, one of the strongest in the White Tower, having discovered the Reds' unlawful stilling of mens, going through the portal terangreal in Tear, the same in Rhuidean, having found the Green Man 2 times, negotiating with the Aelfinn...