Oh the later books - specifically 7-11 - are insanely slow. But that wasn’t true for *much of* the first 6 books. Those could have been easily and much more faithfully adapted into 3-4 amazing show seasons. And I’m posting here because I’m mainly interested in the show’s cancellation, what a terrible job they did adapting the books, and how that adaptation could have been so much better. Is that not permitted? I mean, I’m currently re-reading EOTW and I’m just amazed how good it was, and how easily this could have been much more faithfully adapted into a Season 1. I think most of the “this adaptation was just too hard” crowd would do well to actually dust off EOTW. They might be shocked.

I also think non-book viewers would have enjoyed it more if they’d stuck closer to the books. It’s not some freak coincidence that books were so massively popular.

I have zero proof of this, but I’m convinced that Rafe pitched WOT to Amazon as “LOTR / GOT for women!!”

Did I say “fully”? I think I said “mostly.” Your nit is irrelevant to my broader point. The point is, that within the first 50 pages you understand the following things you saw in the prologue: 1. Dragon 2. Tried to beat the Dark One. 3. Tainted his magic source - something called Saidin - in the process. 4. Went crazy. 5. Killed his family. 6. Killed himself. 7. He’s gonna be reborn. 8. Nobody’s quite sure if that’ll be good or bad, but prolly both. AWESOME!!! Meanwhile the prologue detractors can only argue “yeah, but ‘nine rods of dominion’ is hella confusing and the non-book readers woulda been way too stooopid to appreciate any of this.” It’s a pretty lame argument that just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny if you go back and read the first 50 pages.

Not until book 3 or 4. Why does that matter? Ishy is just “bad guy” for a while, and that’s perfectly fine. You don’t need to know exactly who or what he is to get a basic understanding of the lore and magic system within the first few chapters, and very first episode if Rafe had followed the book more closely.

Exactly - it’s a hook. And a hell of a hook. And it all starts making sense within the first 50 pages of the book. Any confusion about the prologue would have been resolved by the end of the first episode had Rafe chosen to more closely follow the book. People seem to be misremembering just how much of the lore and magic system RJ clearly explained early on through natural exposition among the Two Rivers folk.

Correct on the names. Cut that stuff out and the scene is easy and awesome. Also, go back and read the chapters I cite if you’ve still got a copy of EOTW. You don’t have to be perceptive - RJ basically spoon feeds a primer on the lore and magic system using narrative of the crowd gathered around Fain. It’s was more obvious than I remembered. This was a layup but somebody in production had very different plans for the series.

I think you may be misremembering. I know I was. Most of what happens in the prologue is explained within the first 50 pages of the book. See my post from yesterday with the specific cites. The prologue, Moiraine’s intro to The Boys, and the crowd’s discussion while assembled around Padan Fain’s wagon (which basically explains everything in the prologue) could have easily all happened in the very first episode of the show.

It’s funny, I started re-reading EotW last night just for fun. I had forgotten so much. Just in the prologue and the first three chapters, using a little exposition between Rand, Matt, Perrin, and… Padan Fain of all people, he basically explains the entire premise of the magic system and the dragon reborn, right down to the breaking, the false dragons, suspicion of the Aes Sedai, a LOT of stuff!! If you go back and read the first few chapters, it will dawn on you how EASY it would have been for the show to have explained a TON with just a few minutes of exposition exactly as it happened in the book! Seriously, and doubters should go back and read: - The Prologue (just a few pages, and honestly this is the least important part of the explanation, but it immediately makes sense when you read the next couple chapters) - Chapter 2, page 29 (Moiraine briefly explains the WOT and reincarnation). - Chapter 3, pages 35-40 (Rand, Matt, Perrin, Fain, and the crowd talk about the magic system, the taint on Saidin, the Dragon, the Breaking, the Dragon Reborn, the false dragons). This is not internal narrative. It is the natural exposition of a few characters. It is relatively short and it could have been recreated easily in the first episode of the show!!

Lol. Nice.

Well that’s just silly. Prologues work just as great for TV. Sometimes better. Oh, and I was off on the length of Shadar Logoth and the Ways, but not by much. I went back and checked. Shadar Logoth got about 15 of screen time in one episode, and that’s if you count the time outside the wall. Episode 2. The Ways got 10 minutes. Episode 7.

Agree 100%. There’s a reason RJ made that scene the prologue.

It’s easy to Monday Morning QB Season 1 because it didn’t just suck a little. It was TERRIBLE. And again, I have given numerous examples of where Season One screwed up. I will do so again. The EotW has a number of major set pieces: 1. The Prologue. Show nixed it. 2. Winternight. Show did well. 3. Shadar Logoth. Show gave it about 5 minutes in one episode. 4. Caemlyn. Nixed. 5. The Ways. Again, less than 5 minutes of one episode. 6. The Eye. Neutered and rendered unrecognizable. If you’re keeping score at home, the show properly executed one of six major set pieces. Skipped two of them entirely. Horribly truncated the remaining three. And why? They built the darned sets for Shadar Logoth and the Ways. Let those scenes breathe! Maybe add some of that dreaded “exposition”! Develop the magic system the same way it was developed in the book - when Moiraine gave Egwene her first lesson, for example. To say that WOT was harder to adapt than GOT because WOT had a complicated magic system is just lazy and defeatist. It isn’t that complicated, and the lore is interesting, but the writers and producers lacked the courage to tell that story.

@elder_haman - every time you’re pressed on these issues, you essentially resort to “it’s harder than it looks.” Look - if you’re going to demand that we furnish you an alternate screenplay before you’ll accept that you’re wrong, that’s not gonna further the discussion. Instead, I’ll give you an example of another series built on fantastic lore - GOT. In that case mostly family lore. And the show did a wonderful job incorporating it, which is one of the reasons why the show is so highly regarded (until it ran out of source material). How did they explain that lore? An occasional flashback, but mostly exposition. Whether during a horseback ride or touring a crypt or sipping wine. Because that’s what you can do when you let the show breathe by not filling your precious runtime with a bunch of made up crap.

The “lore” is what lifts WOT head and shoulders above so much pulp fantasy. It is the backbone of the series!! Of course we’ve all heard the adage “show don’t tell” for visual media. But there was plenty of room for a little more exposition in an eight hour runtime.

Yeah… I’m not gonna get into a debate about whether LOTR was a more faithful adaptation of the books than WOT. It’s a waste of time to try to “prove” something that (1) is unprovable but (2) we all know damn well to be true. Same goes for arguing that EOTW was harder to adapt in eight hours than the entire ring cycle. SMDH.

I may be misremembering things, but I thought the book pretty clearly explained that the Eye was created by the Aes Sedai in the aftermath of the breaking in order to protect the Horn and one of the seals, and to help test/train the Dragon Reborn. How did Rand know how to use it? He’s the Dragon Reborn. LTT reincarnated. And he gets flashes of LTT’s memories/knowledge throughout the series. That’s the premise of the series. Not exactly a stretch.

Yeah, I’ve never understood this excuse, either. You’ve given the same excuse for axing the prologue. You don’t seem to have much faith in the audience. Can you explain why the Eye sequence wouldn’t have made sense? You don’t think somewhere in eight hours Moiraine couldn’t have squeezed in sixty seconds of exposition about the forsaken, the sealing of the bore, and the weakened seals? You don’t think he could have added a few dream sequences between Rand and Ishy? (Oh wait… that would have ruined the stupid non-mystery mystery). Had Rafe actually set out to tell the story, eight hours was plenty of time to do it.

You do realize that Peter Jackson did a far more faithful adaptation of the entire LOTR series in about the same runtime? And Rafe couldn’t adapt one book in eight hours??? This “he didn’t have enough time” has never made a lick of sense to me. Mayyyybe don’t waste an entire episode on a totally made up warder / storyline, just for starters. Oh, and cutting Whitebridge, Bayle Domon, etc. from Season 1 was never the issue. I’m talking about the terrible disservice Rafe did to the major set pieces of EotW.

Your judgment of people who disagree with you seems awfully… presumptuous. You asked a question, didn’t get the answer you wanted, and now you’re judging others for not agreeing with you lol.

I agree. The EotW is one of the top 5 best books in the series. The Eye is a terrific ending. You get all the lore of Malkier, the Green Man, two rotting forsaken emerge, Rand awakens, my God it’s a great ending. But there are so many other great set pieces in EotW… Shadar Logoth. The Ways. Caemlyn. Somehow Season 1 mangled them all. I seriously watched in disbelief wondering “how does someone (Rafe) who supposedly loved the books eff this up so badly?!?!” EotW should have been a slam dunk adaptation. It’s a layup compared to the rest of the series!!

Yeah no. The only thing the show illuminated for me was how much better the books are. Theres literally nothing about the show that was an improvement or offered any insight into the source material.

Didn’t they spend like $250MM on the three seasons? Seems like a weird way to make a profit…. I suspect Amazon is privy to a lot more viewership data than the public at large, and they saw the bottom dropping out. Season 1 doomed the show even though the exes gave Rafe two more seasons to try to turn it around. And the culture changed. This series was conceived, written, and produced at the height of the woke craze. That tide is receding, thankfully, and this show looks increasingly weird and out of touch. The producers alienated a big chunk of the book fan base with the bizarre “adaptation” and the show just wasn’t good enough quality to dig out of that hole.

Bad faith? I dunno. How about "agenda driven"? Or maybe just "confirmation bias"? It's human nature to interpret things in ways that conform to your own lifestyle and preferences. Hell, just look at all the people arguing that Abe Lincoln or [insert other historical figure without any real proof] was gay. I don't know what percentage of the fanbase this is, but I'd just settle on "sizeable" and, more importantly, it unfortunately included Rafe.

This is a little controversial for sure, but I always thought "ta'varen" was one of the dumbest concepts in the books and I would have been happy if they had dropped it from the show altogether. Basically, it just stands for "massive plot convenience." As for what the Reds were thinking... do the books ever explain this? I assumed they basically thought the prophecy was bullshit. Which is why Moiraine and Siuan's secret plot to locate and train the DR, working directly at odds to the Reds, was so interesting. And again, the show pissed all over this plotline with Moiraine's musings in the very first episode and "gee, which one of us do you think is the Dragon" idle campfire talk in the second episode. Dumb dumb dumb!