LOL you’re still doing it! I wonder if maybe there is a language barrier causing this confusion. As I have said so many times, the relative importance of the Bowl versus Andor is irrelevant. Conceded: the Bowl was more important. Not the issue. Red herring argument. The question is whether Elayne was in any way necessary to find the Bowl. And best you can muster is that she was a second set of eyes that saw the building in TAR - as if Nynaeve’s eyes weren’t enough. That doesn’t seem like a very good reason to leave Rand tied down in Andor and Cairhien, but you go ahead and believe what you want. Finally, your “Elayne was uniquely qualified to find the T’A” and “Elayne was uniquely qualified to use the T’A” arguments are completely unsupported and, in fact, disproved by the books.

Was it still WOT when Brandon Sanderson stepped in to finish the series, after Robert Jordon died (when Robert Jordon could have finished the series himself if he hadn’t wasted his final years on Path of Daggers, Winter’s Heart, Crossroads of Boredom, and Knife of Dreams, but I digress)? The point I’m making is we already got a fan fiction ending to WOT, so criticizing fans for wanting to make other tweaks rings a bit… hollow.

You’re not reading so good. I already said above that the importance of the bowl is undisputed but is a red herring. It is not the importance that matters - but whether Elayne was necessary to find it. Next, you’ve switched tactics. First you said Elayne’s rediscovery of making T’A was useful to finding a T’A. A proposition for which there is zero support and for which you can only say is “self-explanatory.” Now you’ve switched to Elayne was in best position to know how to use it. Also zero support for this. In fact, Elayne didn’t know how to use the darned thing and had to get help from the Sea Folk, remember? Finally, you argue that Mat’s Band wouldn’t have been helpful to retaking Andor and Cairhien - another red herring. The only point was to get her safely back to Andor ASAP. Let’s apply some simple logic: Elayne was uniquely situated to claim the thrones of Andor and Cairhien. She was not uniquely situated to find the Bowl. Eg could have sent any number of AS with Nyn to find the Bowl. But Elayne wanted to go after the Bowl instead of doing the one job that only she could do.

As I said, “Egwene could have sent other support with Nynaeve.” And we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree that Elayne rediscovering how to make T’A had anything to do with finding one. You can’t explain it, which is why you say it’s self-explanatory.

One of these days I will feed the entire series into AI and play around with some changes. Primarily: 1. Elayne doesn’t go to Ebou Dar but instead returns with Matt to Caemlyn, dramatically shortening both the Bowl of the Winds and Andoran/Cairhien Succession storylines. 2. Shaido are eliminated after Dumai’s Wells, and the Faile captivity story is cut. 3. Salidar squabbling is basically eliminated past Crown of Swords. 4. Crossroads of Twilight is excised completely - now fill in any necessary gaps. I would also do some analysis, like: how many instances throughout the series of Nynaeve pulling her braid? Crossing arms beneath breasts? Sniffs? Smoothing of skirts? The “X is better than Y with girls” joke?

Again… why? What does one thing have to do with the other? This isn’t a matter of whether the Bowl was important. That’s a red herring. It’s whether Elayne was important to finding it. As you acknowledge, Nynaeve knew as much about the location as Elayne. Egwene could have sent other support with Nynaeve. Keeping Rand burdened with Andor and Cairhien so Elayne could take this unnecessary side quest was dumb.

How… did Elayne being a… “ter’angreal expert” make… any difference whatsoever? They needed an expert on making a ter’angreal to find one? Face it, Egwene sent Elayne to Ebou Dar because it’s what Elayne wanted. Leaving Andor and Cairhien on the brink of civil war. Which is horrifically selfish and irresponsible when you think about it. Which… perfectly fits Elayne when you think about it.

The mission was necessary. Elayne was not. Nyn and Elayne both knew as much as the other about the Bowl’s location. Egwene sending them both when only one was necessary, and Elayne was needed elsewhere, was dumb.

Don’t get me wrong, I actually kind of like Nynaeve’s character… mostly. But Elayne just sucks so bad, and Egwene gets worse and worse. And especially putting them all together… GAH! Anyway, during my re-read I think I’ve now identified the point at which my feelings for the Super Girlz shifted from annoyance to outright dislike. It’s the point in Lord of Chaos where Rand dispatches Mat and his Band to Salidar to escort Elayne to Caemlyn to effectively quash two budding civil wars by assuming the thrones of Andor and Caihien, which would have saved countless lives and allowed the Dragon Reborn to focus his attention and resources elsewhere, and instead the Super Girlz be like “Nah. Elayne needs to go to Ebou Dar - even though there’s nothing that makes Elayne particularly necessary to that mission, and we’ll send Mat with her mainly so we can hijack his army for our “siege” on the Tar Valon.” Maybe this is why I feel like Crown of Swords was such a drop off from the first six books. Chapter after chapter about Ebou freaking Dar.

You didn’t say “changes the story” - of course cuts would somewhat change the story. What you said was my cuts would make it “an entirely different story.” Let’s not just ignore plain English, ok? I would have adapted WOT far more faithfully to the earlier books 1-6, and cut more extensively from the book 7-11 which a great many fans agree were tiresomely bloated. That sure as heck wouldn’t have made my adaptation an “entirely different” story. I dare say it would have helped the central story - Rand’s hero’s journey as the Dragon Reborn - actually succeed to completion on screen.

DAYUM SON… now that’s some CUTS! Lol. That’s a good 25% of the series, at least??

Serious question: how do any of the changes I proposed in the opening post make WOT “an entirely different story”?

When Mat first meets Olver (I think Lord of Chaos) and crouches down face to face and gravely tells him “you see, Olver, you smell bad, so we’re gonna get you a bath.” As a dad, I literally laughed out loud at that.

I think there are three big reasons why people don’t like the Super Girlz… 1. Because everything comes way too easy for them, for no explicable reason. Sure Rand figures some stuff out by intuition, but he’s the DR with LTR living in his head. The girls just figure out whatever they need to, whenever Jordon needed them to. Elayne: “oooh I just figured out how to make ter’angreal, tee hee!” Egwene: “sure why not, let’s give this Accepted a “promotion” - everyone will totally take us seriously now!” Egwene just puzzling out Traveling. Just as a few examples. 2. They are so freaking arrogant vis a vis Rand. They all know the Prophecies. And yet they all think they know better than the Dragon Reborn. They don’t even think of him as an equal. Just an idiot man who needs to be controlled. As a reader, you just want to scream LET THE MAN COOK!! 3. Because their love stories blow. The Elayne/Rand thing is totally asinine. It is, at best, a teenage crush. Elayne spend me like 5 minutes with Rand and she just knows she’s in love with him and wants have his babies?? She might as well have been doodling “Elayne Al’Thor” in her pink princess diary. Stupid. Annoying. Same for Egwene/Gawyn. It’s just dumb, baseless, contrived. They barely spend any time together but just fall head over heels in love because they both think “you’re SO beautiful!!!!” And it doesn’t help that Jordon totally mangled Gawyn’s character. Notice I didn’t mention Nynaeve. I think she’s actually pretty great. She is the funniest of the three, does cool stuff that isn’t totally unbelievable - she’s been healing people since her time as a wilder - and her love story with Lan is better developed, too. She’s just a much better character than Egwene and Elayne. Egwene would be second. Elayne a dead and distant last. She sucks so bad.

Just a couple points in response… 1. You are correct, Faile sucks. She might be the most insufferable of the Tier 2 Characters. 2. If you are only at Book 7 and getting frustrated by how the main characters don’t share information, buckle up. It’s gonna get a WHOLE LOT WORSE. As Jordon’s mental health deteriorated, the series began to drift in a major way after Lord of Chaos. He should have wrapped up the series in another 3 books. Books 7-11 could have easily been condensed into 2 at most.

I like the Rand / Aviendha relationship and it at least makes sense because they spend so much time together. But damn the Elayne thing just so dumb. Gawyn you’re right. You either have to kill him off or change his character. Could have been a much better character but really mishandled by Jordon in my opinion. Totally forgot about the Perrin love triangle but totally agree.

I’m a couple months into my re-read. I started it shortly after it was announced the show was cancelled. I’m about halfway through Lord of Chaos. Like the OP, I had forgotten how darned good EOTW was. And how relatively easy it would have been to faithfully adapt to screen. And if it had been faithfully adapted… but I digress. The Shadow Rising remains my favorite book. While the homage to Dune is heavy, Rand’s journey to the Waste and Rhuidean is fantastic. As is the battle for the Two Rivers. And the two chapters taking Rand back into the Age of Legends is the finest writing in the series and, frankly, some of the best writing in all of fantasy. I’d rank EOTW second! It just does such a damned good job of setting everything up. I am shocked to say that I’d rank Fires of Heaven third! I had remembered this as “the book where Elayne and Nyn join the circus.” And well, yeah. That happened. But the stuff with Rand and Aiel, Moghedien, “This Day, This Place” (Mat’s battle for Cairhien), and the final showdown in Caemlyn are all terrific. Fourth goes to the Great Hunt. Just a darned fun read. Fifth I’d say Lord of Chaos. This is the first book I had to wait on when I first read the series. There’s a lot to love in this book - not just Dumai’s Wells. The Healing! The Forsaken actually doing stuff! But it also starts to get wobbly. Introducing the Bowl of the Winds, and Andoran succession, and Salidar squabbling. Sixth I’ll give a nod to Memory of Light. No, it isn’t Jordan (good Jordan - not crazy Jordan) - but Sanderson did a serviceable job finishing the series, and did so with a satisfying bang. Seventh, Dragon Reborn. Look, it ain’t great. The title of the book is ironic considering Rand is barely present until the very end. But it’s still good. Eighth, Gathering Storm. You know what I think of Jordan’s later books if I’m inserting another Sanderson book here. Ninth, Towers of Midnight. Yup, it’s Neo Perrin. Reads like fan fiction. Still ok, though. Tenth through Fourteenth: the final Jordan books. No particular order because they’re all equally bad in my opinion. Well ok, I guess Crossroads has to be the absolute worst. Maybe I’ll change my mind after the re-read. If I slog through it. I’m going to try!

Agree 100% that WOT is, at its essence, a hero’s journey story. Your structure of adapting book 1 also makes sense. Frankly, book 1 was the easiest book to adapt faithfully. Rafe definitely read the books. But there are different things for different people in reading WOT. It’s clear from his own interviews that what really appealed to Rafe was reading these books with his mom while growing up as a closested gay youth in Mormon Utah. He has said this! I remember reading this interview before season 1 aired and thinking “uh oh, this could be a real problem.” As such, Rand’s hero’s journey was less important to Rafe than focusing on the strong female characters - mainly the Aes Sedai - and sprinkling in some LGBTQ stuff that may or may not have ever been in the books. That’s what we got - too much on the Aes Sedai and the Super Girlz too early, and major plot changes - and it kinda stunk. By the way, here is the interview… https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyCx3AQ9TsA

Imagine you get to a free hand and unlimited resources and a clean slate to adapt the books to the screen. What are the BIG changes you would have made from the books? I just finished my reread of Fires of Heaven (and I had forgotten how good this book was, btw). Here is my list off top of my head… - Book 1 = Season 1 and I would have been super faithful. Including the prologue. - The Super Girlz just figuring stuff out by intuition makes ZERO sense. At least with Ran he’s the DR so there’s a reason. I’d have them learn most of their stuff in the tower. - Elayne sucks. Sorry not sorry. I wouldn’t cut her character. And I’d still have her be “in love” with Rand. But that doesn’t mean Rand has to love her back. This whole “love story” makes sense as teenage infatuation but not actual love, and I’d depict it as such with the expected outcome. In fact, I’d probably make her character even more annoying in the show. Basically she’d be like Sansa, like how book readers would be like “ok, Sansa sucks but she’s as bad in the books. She still sucks but not as bad as the show.” - Give the Forsaken interesting backstories, make them more dangerous, and don’t reincarnate half of them. Ugh. - The Elayne and Nynaeve join the circus storyline is tedious and dumb. Cut. - Bowl of the Winds gone. - Elayne Andor/Cairhien succession waaaay abbreviated. - Perrin/Faile captivity story waaay abbreviated. And the Shaido are obliterated after Dumai’s Wells. - Taim is Demandred. Or at least Demandred is somewhere way less contrived than in the books. I’m sure I’ll think of more as I get further into the reread, but that’s what I can think of for now.

Using a short hand general statement… to generally describe what went wrong… is not bigotry. It’s just common sense. Amazon/Rafe/Whomever decided that WOT would be a great opportunity to make a woke fantasy series that appealed more to women. So they crapped all over the lore suggesting the DR could be a woman, focused way too heavily on the Aes Sedai in season 1, largely sidelined the male characters, deviated way too much from the books, and never really recovered.

Yeah, introducing Tar Valon and so many Aes Sedai in Season 1 was a big mistake, among others. But what you call “world building” I think was just Rafe’s or whomever at Amazon’s preferred focus for the show. The Dragon Reborn is the central story of the books. It just didn’t seem that way in the show. The show almost - not exactly but almost - made the DR a MacGuffin: Not the plot itself but a trigger to drive the plot. The Aes Sedai and more broadly a magical world of powerful women seemed to be the preferred focus for Amazon. I just find myself being a bit hypocritical because, for all of my criticism of how much the show changed Book 1 - and I still think that critique is totally valid - as I re-read further into the series I’m like “damn, I’d change that” and “that” and “that” LOL. And I’m in the best part of the books before it went over a cliff! Simple truth, RJ did a pretty lousy job with most of the female characters. Made them unrealistic and often extremely annoying. Which is ironic since WOT is revered for the strong female characters and storylines.

Agree 100%. I started my re-read a few months ago and had the same exact reaction, which I posted in a different thread. Book 1 was EASY to adapt. The story is so simple and linear. It establishes the characters. The lore. The magic without getting into different “weaves” etc. The fact that they bungled Book 1 so terribly is just unforgivable. Ironically, now that I’m midway into Book 4, I’m finding a lot more things I had forgotten about that I would have changed in the TV series. Like how insufferably annoying the Super Girls are most of the time. Or how contrived and baseless Rand and Elayne’s “love story” is. My biggest frustration, I think, is how the Super Girls in particular just seem to figure out how to do all these crazy things with channeling by sheer intuition. My God, couldn’t Jordan at least have had them spending a few months in the tower learning how to do this stuff? It’s just literally unbelievable. Not only would I have changed many things as the series went forward, I am gaining an appreciation of how difficult it would have been moving forward to adapt the series. A lot of internal narrative that would need to be changed to dialogue. Depicting the weaves. All the unbelievable bullsh*t. And Book 4 is my FAVORITE by the way. But none of this excuses how they butchered Book 1. Inexcusable. That one was a layup.

RJ chose the Prologue to be the prologue for a reason. It is an awesome intro to the series and immediately sets up the concepts of reincarnation and the taint/madness associated with the male Saidin (not to mention traveling and a few other goodies) which are both essential to the series. It would have worked equally well in the TV series. The show's decision to depart from this, coupled with "we don't know if it is a boy or a girl," coupled with the "who is the dragon" non-mystery pretty much doomed the show from the start. EOTW was far and away the easiest book to adapt to screen - all they had to do was stick to the story - and they botched it horribly.

Thank you for locating this. This is what I was referring to. One particular mod went off and started banning people just for using a perfectly acceptable (and appropriate, in my opinion) word for a while. Thankfully, this practice no longer appears to be in effect. And I think critics of the “woke” adaptation have been largely vindicated at this point.

Um. For a while there was at least one mod on here banning accounts just for using the word “woke.”