Else was one of the foresaken! The novice I did not think of that 

3 hours ago, Wassup said:

I have read the ending both before and after becoming a father.  I have a different perspective to the ending now, though. 

 

What do you think would be a better, less harsh ending overall?

Tam believes his son died a hero and has the closure of burying him and grieving properly or he learns of Rand still living, but cannot ever see him again and will always wonder what kind of end he will come to?  Will his son live well, will he be hunted, will he be suffering or lonely?  There is no closure there, just a never ending yearning and hope to see his son again before he himself passes on.

 

I know I painted the latter kind of bleak.  However, to me it is cleaner to have the closure.  So, it was a little biased in the presentation.

I mean suffering/lonely is just "life" and something that applies to all kids

Would I prefer my kid is dead or "might become dead" yes I'm thinking the latter

Overall I'm sorry I can't see any reason why Tam shouldn't know the truth and why he would prefer to think of his son as dead than alive

Well, Verin blatantly lied early on in the books so everyone knew something was up. From memory her forum topic was "black, brown or purple". Furthermore she was never really black. So I don't think we can really say we were surprised that she was black. You might have been surprised at the plot twist (I was) of her being a "double agent".

I feel like there were few surprises, none of the characters you would care about were really darkfriends. Verin was the exception, also there was a character very early on, I think the Great Hunt that surprised me... He tried to redeem himself by dying holding off people while Rand escapes.

If you named your kid Elayne you'd have to live with it being a spoiled brat who thinks she knows better than everyone, never learns her lesson and refuses to love her brother because he told on her a few times 

Oh interesting I'm a paper person for WoT but audible for stormlight. Same people are narrating WoT? Must be the Sanderson connection. I thought Kramer and Reading were good but not great as narrators.

All good points. I guess my complusion theory is more of a "where I would have gone with it" rather than a legitimate theory 

I don't find that convincing for Tam. Tam has seen his son become Dragon and survived the last battle. He could deal with his son looking different. 

Tam is still a target whether he knows of Rand or not. You want to keep Mat and Perrin the dark I would understand, but not your father. 

Yes I was old school (I came in when book 7 was first released in Australia, 1997 I think) and used to hang on every FAQ being updated

Yes I assumed Moridin was Ishy from the get go, my memory says we all did 

I recently reread the series for the first time in over a decade. Things have changed in my life then, I am now a parent.

Something really bothered me and the end of MoL. Okay so.. Rand and Tam was always treated a little strangely. Rand never saw Tam again until Cadsuane brought them together. Rand told himself he was protecting them and maybe be believed it. But this was "dark rand" and to an extent it all made sense.

But then we have "Zen Rand" who loves his father and thinks that his upbringing is the main difference between him and Lews. Yet... he lets Tam bury him! Even if Tam finds out the next day that Rand is dead, Tam spent 24 hours having buried his only child. That's horrible. But even having said that, I get no indication Rand is going to reveal himself to Tam as he rides away. 

Elayne, Min and Avi know. Cadsuane knows and Nynaeve probably does, or knows enough. Sometimes I think that Moirane had a right to know, but perhaps not. Really as I go away from the book I have to have faith that Nynaeve would figure it out and tell Tam. Despite her... demeanour at the start of the books... she really becomes  a voice of wisdom at the end. And she deeply cares for people, especially Two Rivers folk. I cannot see her allowing Tam to mourn the death of his boy like that. But as I read the books, Rand apparently doesn't care. I do not think Elayne would ever tell Tam, nor do I think Min would. Avi might, she has more honour and sense about these things than the others. But now I am really getting into theory-land. 

I have seen a few old threads theorising what Rand will do with his new life. But no one seemed to think that Tam had been mistreated, it was more like "maybe he will tell Tam, maybe he won't". 

I guess there is another question.. where does it stop? Mat might tell his wife. Perrin could probably be trusted. The more people know the more it might become known, which obviously Rand wants to avoid. 

So I guess my rant ends with... do you think Tam was harshly done by at the end? Do you think Rand would tell him? Do you think anyone else would?

Best book shadow rising/fires

Worst CoT

Favourite character is very hard. I loved nynaeves arc. She was very difficult to begin with but she became more sure of herself and her heart shone through. Galad also had a great arc and I thought was a fantastic and interesting character. Moraine too but she wasn't in a lot. Everyone loves Mat, you have to. 

Most hated character is easily Gawyn. I could rant about him but he was toxic and absolutely full of himself. He did more for the shadow than most of the forsaken

Edit - favourite scene when I read it for the first time... Galad challenging Valda. At this point I loved his character concept but thought he'd be "infantile" for the duration books. It shocked me, I loved it, and I still get goosebumps reading it.

I agree with a lot of this thread however my two contributions are

- I did not mind the aes sedai "isn't there an adult in the room" conundrum. I think this is separate to the bizarre gender divide of every culture. I think the aes sedai were a powerful organisation that ran for hundreds of years full of God like individuals with zero checks and balances. Furthermore, unofficial power of the organisation was primarily granted not on capability basis (but on talent, common in medieval times were everything is father son). 

- Sanderson books did pick up the pace but after CoT and even KoD they needed it. Yes it was jarring but it was the best editorial decision imo. Roberts story had grown like a tree and Sanderson needed to have everything point one way again.

I have to say that I don't hate the "lanfear survived" theory

She was completely full of her own self worth so it's not surprising that she thought that everyone would chase her down unless she faked her death

She went against the dark one multiple times showing she was more like a mordeth character - some form of separate evil

Lastly the final interaction between her and Rand I think showed that she never wanted to be sworn to the dark one but whatever occurred she could not show vulnerability to someone else by proving it to Rand. 

I feel like there could be more to her than people realise... Haven't thought this one threw but maybe she really did love Lews Therin... Maybe yes power was great and she had a hard time expressing her love but I had the impression that part of the reason she couldn't show Rand her true self was he would see how much she did love Lews.

PS. I also couldn't help but wonder if Demandred might have been under the slightest bit of complusion to amplify his hatred of Lews. Everyone remarked how overwhelming it was in an otherwise logical person and Rand spoke about his turning being the "most tragic". 

I am 40 years old and read the series again, having joined when book 7 was released.

After reading this thread all I wanted to say was - as a kid, I was obsessed with the idea the male Aiel channelers would have been turned. It was the only thing that made sense to me. I thought if that shadow had any sense they'd park some black ajah and mydraal north of the Aiel. Since the dark one could grant immortality... Anyway it used to frustrate me that no one had thought of this and I wondered if Jordan had 

Yeah, my mistake. I meant Towers of Midnight obviously.

Yeah, it is funny, I actually thought you were lying to me, being an annoying internet poster who pretends they had read aMoL. It was only when it was mentioned in another thread I realised you meant ToM. I went over the chapters last night, I totally missed Moridens statement, I remember the 3 forsaken comment but just plain didn't think about it, and never read the glossary.

So basically I'm and idiot, haha, without this board I would never have known!! (well, probably not until my second reading of toM) :)

 

Asmodean worked with Lanfear who planned for him to teach Rand, he finally gave up on that and tried to take the Choedan Kal but failed and was captured by Rand and became his teacher. Went to Caemlyn with Rand where he was killed by Rahvin, before being brought back thanks to balefire, and was finally killed by Greadal. Almost certainly gone for good.

Greandal did that? When did this get revealed?

I never understood why, when the Dark One was upset about losing the chosen there was zero interest in bringing Asmodean back.

Sammael sets himself up in Illian as Lord Brend. Forces Moiraine, Lan, Perrin, Faile, and Loial to flee. Attacks Rand during the Battle of Cairhien, later causes the dispersion of the Shaido, tries to negotiate a truce with Rand, stops Rand's army in eastern Illian, attacked by Rand in the city of Illian, retreats to Shaidar Logoth where he nearly kills Rand, who is saved by Moridin. Finally killed by mashadar right before Rand was going to balefire him. Gone for good.

I don't understand why but I tend to agree with you. Why the Dark One can't bring back someone killed by Mashadar?

Mesaana set herself up in the White Tower as Danelle, an obscure Aes Sedai of the brown Ajah. She is partially responsible for Siuan's downfall, and has Alviarin manipulate Elaida, she causes rifts to form between the Ajahs and tries to capture Rand but ultimately fails thanks to Perrin's rescue party and the Ashaman. Fails to show up at the Cleansing and is punished for it by Shaidar Haran. Initiates a battle with Egwene and her allies in TAR and finally has her mind broken in a contest of willpower with Egwene. Probably gone for good, but could presumably be brought back by the Dark One if she is killed.

Yes, they should balefire her broken body.

what city/province is king roderan in?

What happened to the rebel's Mistress of Novices?

 

After being raised as Amyrlin by White Tower, did Egwene bond Gawyn?

 

Not too sure but since OriginalTower's one is now the keeper, probably Rebel's is the new one?

No Egwene has no bonded Gawyn yet. (and he is a horrible person)

Cool to see my thread kicking on. For some reason I can't log on at work anymore... get odd error messages.

Anyway, my new question: Do we know what will happen to Lan's bond when Moiraine comes back?