Okay, now that I’ve had time to digest where we are now, and inspired by the LOTR discussion in another thread to look at the rate of adaptation, here’s what I think we’re faced with: TLDR: We’re about to lose fully ½ of the content of Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time. Based on my book versions: Page Count: (529 + 442+ 378 = 1349 pages for LOTR) and (657+ 577+ 577 = 1811 for EOTW, GH, TDR) Run time (12 hours for LOTR extended, 16 for WoT) We were at 1.874 pages per minute for LOTR and are at 1.886 pages per minute for WoT, which is close, and can be used to project. At that rate, adapting WoT's 10,173 pages would require 90 hours of television in total, of which we’ve already got 16. But we’ve only got 48 hours left. So, assuming 48 remaining hours of TV, they need to lose 2,929 pages of content, or about 5 entire books, without ANY additions to fit everything in. But if you add more Rafe created stuff in, you have to lose more. Let’s say they add an hour of fresh content per season, which means they need to lose another 679 pages of Jordan / Sanderson content – another book – from the run of the series. So now we come to the tough question - how to lose 6 books worth of material: Easy Cuts – the slog main plots – plot points must happen, but don’t need to take long: Faile’s kidnapping Mat with Tylin and Tuon Egwene at Salidar Easy Cuts – side plots - can lose without impacting character arcs or plot Sea Folk and the Bowl of the Winds (substitute Callandor / Male A’dam) Shara (substitute Black Tower corruption) Far Madding Be’lal, Bathamel, Aginor Elayne and Nynaeve with the Circus Morgase’s Journey Thom Merrilin (Lan protects the cave) Aran’gar / Osan’gar (hard, confusing, and politically sensitive) Medium Cuts – the Forsaken plot consolidation: Rahvin in Camelyn + Sammael in Illian (only getting 1) Demandred in Shara and Taim with the Black Tower (only getting 1) Mesaana in the Tower or Semirhage with the Seanchan (only one’s in the show, but which one?) Medium Cuts – can remove, but need to consider implication: The Kin storyline in Tanchico (need 1 non-Aes Sedai Channelling society, and someone for Nyn / Elayne to interact with looking for the MacGuffin) Berelain / Faile (Faile deals with the ghost of a dead wife) The Red Veils (I think the Shadow needs human soldiers) Any non-trolloc monsters (Draghkar, Grolm, Raken) (too much SFX budget) Tear or Illian (keep 1 - Rand needs a non-Aiel army beyond Cairhien) Galad (would need Dain to forgive Perrin) Birgitte (important to Nyn and Elayne’s character development) Hard Cuts – material re-writes to major plot points required: Siuan / Leanne / Logain’s journey to Salidar (stilling, healing, redemption, and politics) The Aelfinn / Elfinn / Tower of Genji (Mat, getting Moiraine back) Moiridin / Cyndane (they need at least one soul switch before the end) The Borderlands Compulsion arc (become the King you were born to be, Mat assumes command) The Camelyn Civil War (swap the balefire end of FoH for the end of the Civil War) Egeanin (to show Seanchan aren’t all evil) For those of us who enjoy the political machinations, or complex world building, or even nuance, we can forget it. The Axeman cometh...

Reading the thoughts on LOTR here, and combining it with something Sanderson said in his watch through - part of the issue with both WoT and LOTR is the substitutions that were made. Showrunners only get so much time, and for every new item added (Moiraine and her family) something has to be lost (Ingtar and the Hunt). And that's not a comment on quality, just reality. Fellowship is the closest of the three to the book, and cutting Bombadil in favour of Aragorn / Arwen stuff was probably necessary; otherwise, there would only be women on screen for like 15 minutes in 12 hours. Although I don't hear the same complaints about Saving Private Ryan or Fury. BUT... having Aragorn go off a cliff meant that they cut Saruman's actual death from the movies. Adding the Elves to Helm's Deep hurt one of the themes of the LOTR (men are now on their own). But most importantly, by blowing a one chapter battle in the books into 16% of the overall movies, we lost the Scouring of the Shire, and the loss of innocence for the home population when war comes to their doors instead of being far away. I also wish that they had let Aragorn and Faramir be complete in themselves and not send them through the character growth arcs, but that was going to be a losing battle. Which ties in to what WoT is doing to Lan. If Aragorn has to grow, so does Lan. The last piece on this part of the comparison to keep in mind, LOTR's total budget was $281 million; WOT is probably around $180 million. so we always have to be careful using LOTR as a quality benchmark for WoT

I have to bet no at this point. If and until Amazon commits to the 8 season run, I have to think the showrunners will continue to downplay Min's visions and the various Prophecies of the Dragon / Rhuidean / Finns. Since the showrunners do not know how they are going to get from A to B yet in later seasons, they can't include prophecies that they aren't going to be able to meet later.

Really good post and I agree with most of it; just a couple of pushbacks... I don't think they can use Camelyn to replace Tanchico; if nothing else, the Tanchico plot is needed for Mat and Tuon. And and has been discussed elsewhere, we're speculating that the Bowl of the Winds / Male A'dam / Callandor get conflated into it somewhere. Plus the Tanchico story arc is critical in getting the girls out of the Tower before the collapse. I don't see them moving right to the Camelyn civil war story arc when Nyn and Elayne leave the tower since that's the end of Elayne's arc, so they need something to do in the middle. And I don't know if we get Mat in Rhuidean. I want him confronting the boys, but aside from escorting the girls back to Tar Valon while Rand goes with the Aiel, I don't know how that happens. I think we get Mat building to Couladin, since that's the formation of the Band, but I don't know the order

Ah, but that involved a physical strike - consider the earlier scene when Nynaeve's Damane got shot in the neck, and Nyn reacted like a mosquito had bit her. So they showed that the pain transfer from damane to sul'dam was minimal. I do agree that if the sul'dam takes physical damage, the damane should feel it double, even unto death, but that's why Egwene was able to survive the battle of wills to get Renna to drop the collar.

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!! So of course, there's only one movie

Wow, I'd like to see the size of the cheque Bezos cut to CBR for that puff piece. I like the show, but this is over the top.

It is mentioned in TSR / FoH? that Rand spends an hour a day or so practicing the sword with Lan in order to prevent himself from getting swamped by the adoring Aiel, because they are repulsed by the sword. So I've thought since we didn't get it in Season 1 on the way to Aridhol that Rand wouldn't be learning the sword until the Waste.

I'm Rafe Judkins, and so's my wife...

I don't think they end up in Camelyn, like ever. I think the entire Morgase plotline goes away, and we meet the boys in TV with Elaida. Unless they give us Forsaken that weren't in the statues, we don't get Rahvin, Be'lal, Aginor, or Bathamel. Since one of the themes is about balance, I think we're only getting 4 male and 4 female forsaken, we know for sure who 7 of the 8 are, and we don't know 4 women yet. So its Semirhage or Mesaana. I don't expect Siuan to die in the coup, since she's needed to get Logain to Salidar. More importantly from a production / audience standpoint, once the girls leave for Tanchico, we don't have another POV character in the Tower to show us the coup, and if they kill Siuan, that's it. So build up Elaida and Gawyn this season, coup through Siuan's eyes next season, and set up / of Salidar and Logain's redemption in Season 5. I like the Luc as Sammael thing. Eliminates an interesting character, but he's too complicated for television, and ties Perrin's conflict directly to a Forsaken without having Sammael be involved with the Whitecloaks. I see people suggesting Asmo's role is limited to next year - I think they'll be very careful about turning the Forsaken into a big bad of the season model (introduced in episode 1, dead in 8), so look for them to offset their stories a little. As I've said from almost the beginning, I will be incredibly curious to see if we get the Snakes and the Foxes. Not only because of the impact on Mat, but also whether or not it would remove Lanfear and Moiraine from the board

Another factor that may come into play is an implied contract with audiences on pre-existing properties. If streaming companies buy up complete properties, and then continuously refuse to finish them (The Witcher on Netflix, The Expanse to name two), then they run a real risk of potential viewers not engaging with them because they don't trust that the story will ever be finished. Or worse, they buy it, and then absolutely butcher it when the numbers don't meet their expectations, turning the audience against the production company because they broke faith. What has impacted ASOIAF and Rothfuss' Name of the Wind can come to streaming services just as well, and TV shows are way more expensive to produce than books.

At this point, I'm still assuming 8 seasons. the Ratings are good enough, the budget is moderate, and Bezos is a fan. And if we get season 4, I bet they commit to finishing it so the writers can plan the rest of it out and make sure it fits.

Nah, we're only getting one of those, and it's Sammael. Asmodean does melancholy whipped dog, and Demandred does icy rage. And I still think - to avoid bringing Shara into this - we get Taimandred. I just don't know which of the story arcs Sammael gets; probably the antagonist for the cleansing of the source., but he's off the board by season 6

I think you're a season ahead of yourself, if not more. Most of what you describe will likely fall in seasons 4 and 5. I expect S3 is built around 2 plots - Perrin and the Whitecloaks in the Two Rivers; and Rand and Egwene in the Waste. I'm sure Nyn and Elayne go back to the Tower, but I don't know if we get Mat at Rhuidean or Mat with the girls. Season ends with the Al'car Dail reveal cliffhanger, and Abel / Nattie's redemptions in the Two Rivers. So we get your normal points 1, 2 and 4. 3- Is a major focus of season 4, not 3. It gets set up in Season 3, but doesn't happen until season 4. 5 - I don't think this happens until season 6. Think about how that scene ends and everything that has to happen to get the emotional payoff for the two characters. 6 - nope. the girls won't meet for seasons, and Elayne has to get back to the tower to set up her brothers and mother's advisor. wild assumptions 1 - nope, this is the season 4 finale, not season 3. 2 - We aren't getting Rahvin, so this isn't happening. Unless they use Sammael instead, but I don't think we're going to Camelyn. 3 - Add Sorilea, Bair, Gaul, the friendly male Aiel that Rand "disciplines", and Mat's female friend 4 - nope; that's season 6 finale, I think - the end of Nynaeve / Lan's character arcs, and the end of Egwene's political battle. Mixed with cleansing of the source. Secondary plot for season 6 is Faile's kidnapping Season 5 is Siuan's journey, Salidar set up, the girls in Tanchico, and Rand and the Aiel in Cairhien, ending with the Corenne in Tanchico. Let's see Mat in pink bows. That leaves Logain setting up the Black Tower, the War at the White Tower, Perrin's Trial, and Mat / Tuon for Season 7 Season 8 covers the fall of the Black Tower, the healing of the White, Tower of Genji (if they do it), Veins of Gold, and Tarmon Gaidon. They are going to gut the slog; there might be 3 episodes that come out of those 4 1/2 books.

The Dragon rides forth on the sands of time. Weep for your salvation. I have to think that the Falme locals would have been terrified, and that's without getting into whether or not they were actually upset by the Seanchan.

While I am sympathetic, I do not support this position. Because it simply results in more camels. and if you haven't heard the joke, a camel is a horse designed by committee. Art needs a singular voice - you may agree with the artist or not - but its need someone to be accountable for the soul of the vision.

Way more happy with this season conclusion than season 1's conclusion. As TV goes, I'd give it a solid B, as an adaptation, maybe a C -. The issues continues to be the chainsaw they are taking to the series in order to fit it into 8 seasons of 8 episodes. And as I once commented - the issue isn't really that they need more episodes, it's that they need more time per episode to let scenes breathe, and maybe to throw in more subplot set ups that can pay off in those extra minutes in later episodes. A perfect example is the lost Ingtar subplot. Over the course of the season, you probably didn't need 5 minutes to include this really powerful sub plot, but there was just not enough time. I get that they chose to add the Moiraine subplot (leading actress, I get it), but things just aren't hitting as impactfully as they could. I also didn't get the blink and you miss it reference of Loial getting the horn / escaping with help from I assume Lanfear. Maybe a minute of screen time, but cut for time. I'm generally happy with where the season ended up, although the Avengers assemble moment as a season ending was a bit heavy handed, and I think next year will be better yet. Overall, it feels like looking a series of black and white photos from the Wheel of Time, instead of an IMAX movie, but at least this season didn't feel like a pencil drawing by a 5 year old with the wrong hand.. I know people will continue to complain about the lack of focus on the boys, but I would point out that the girls' character arcs (not their plot arcs, but their character arcs) really end mid series, with attention switching to the boys. so assuming we get the whole series, it will balance out. And even if it doesn't, I think there could be an interesting interpretation of WoT without ever getting inside Rand's head. Good points - Hopper's sacrifice was well handled, although if you watch enough stuff like this, it was telegraphed - Rand not winning a sword fight against Turak. Given the show, this would not have been earned. And I like the 'from birth to death" nod to the books - Mat finally gets to come through for the EF5. We're obviously not getting the Tear red frame door now, so that just leaves connecting Perrin with Faile and moving / replacing callandor from TDR. And him being a hero of the horn saves a lot of time, even if it is a big loss to his character. - Time to toss the dice! - Egwene and Renna - you have to move quickly across the feedback loop created by two a'dams, but it was beautifully acted, and showed Egwene's fortitude. - Nynaeve doing nothing with the power. I'm all for this. They can't all be superheroes all the time. - Hey look, Rand, a love interest! And she's not a psychotic 3,000 year old. - Uno as a Hero of the Horn. That works for me. Although it does raise concerns if anyone else in the series gets to join the Heroes, which would be a damn shame, because those scenes are beautiful. - Moghedien - not how I pictured her (not matronly at all), but I do love the interpretation. And all of them are loose Bad Points - not sure I like Perrin killing Bornhald. It creates a lot more personal motivation for what's going to happen with Dain, and we may need to get an Ahab type obsession in order to make him the villain. Otherwise, it's simply a case of "Hello...my name is Daino Bornhaldo...you killed my father....prepare to die" - Rand not earning a sword fight with Turak. I get it, but still sucks that we got the Indiana Jones treatment - Egwene holding off Ishamael as long as she did. - a novice using healing weaves on Rand. I would have worked it differently (either linking with or collaring Elayne so Nyn could lead) but oh well - the Fire dragon. I have no idea how I would have done the banner across the sky, but this didn't work for me. - the grey area of Moiraine's 3 oaths and blowing up a bunch of ships. In the books, I don't think the oaths to protect another sister could be stretched that far, pardon the pun. And I can follow the logic of "DO kills Rand, we all die, therefore me acting is in the extreme of trying to save my life (and as a result, everyone else in the world), but I don't know if the Oath would allow it. It's a justifiable homicide defense.

A: this is true B: GOT had that there hard R / HBO / Skinemax vibe happening C - GOT has better early source material to draw on. I actually feel that WOT will turn out better than GOT. We now have an accurate reflection of how the writers are going to adapt the series - for good or ill - but they have the whole series to work to. Rafe has gone off script, but still has to get to the sample place. With GOT, D&D didn't go offscript - they ran out of script. and so far, I prefer Rafe's independently created content more than D&D's

I'll go through this in more detail, and add my thoughts when I have time, but wanted to get this on the record for next season before someone else does.... Hello...my name is Daino Bornhaldo....you killed my father...prepare to die...

yeah, and I think they need to be careful with not representing casual suggestions as orders to be obeyed. I've seen that kind of absolute authority as a result of magic compliance before, and so I'm fine with them adding a level of formal triggering to this process to avoid casual declarative directions triggering compulsed compliance.

No one is allowed to go through a story without undertaking some version of the hero's journey. It's not enough to show their character growth, they have to grow in power as well. I absolutely knew Lan was going to eat the Nerf bat, as was Moiraine. This is Hollywood, where Elrond told an 80 year old Aragorn "Become the King you were Born to be", as if he hadn't been for 50+ years already. Another way they've succeeded in weakening the kids is by removing the 5 speedbump Forsaken. Not only did they not make much of a difference, they showed that Rand and Moiraine were matches for them in books 3 and 1 respectively. there have been direct views of different level of power amongst channellers, but the signs - number of threads, precision of lines, speed - are subtle, and I would not expect to get massive discussions about comparative strength. I mean, whole chapters were dedicated to it in the books. When we have 64 hours, that's way too nuanced a topic to bring up.

I think it would be dumb to reveal this was compulsion. Our heroes need to make honest mistakes, not just be forced into them by the Dark. From Siuan's POV, her lover just lied to her, and then showed up with the Dragon Reborn and a Forsaken. For a person trained since girlhood to defend against the shadow, she would have reacted almost instantly.

To add to this: (4) It gave Moiraine the opportunity to demonstrate that she is a true soldier of the Light, with or without the One Power. Continuing to fight for Rand, not willing to self-delete, and fighting to her last breath to defeat the Shadow. It is the visible counter to "everything good about you came out of a bottle" (5) It taught Moiraine that she couldn't and didn't need to stand on her own, with Lan defending her, and Alannah and Verin willing to help. It is not about one person carrying the load, but everyone together. Foreshadowing?

yep. I'd go further...when your villains are capable of knocking your heroes out with impunity, opening a little hole in the world, and putting their unconscious body somewhere, we know that's because that's where the villains want them to be. We don't need to know the motive to know it's not good for our heroes

Cool - they will be able to break into the Sun Palace by using that jawline to cut window glass...