14 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

The changes are too consistent to be unintended, IMO. This isn't the Temple of Doom ending up as dark as it was by accident. See my recent posts as to why I think they're doing what they're doing.

 

And I profoundly disagree that they are doing this to protect the female characters.  You are assigning to the showrunners in real life the very thing that the male protagonists were guilty of doing for 14,000 pages.  Which would take a level of self unawareness so massive that I don't even believe a Hollywood Exec has it.

I do think they approach male and female leads very differently but you could be right. This is why I still watch. I’ll wait and see and am happy to do so. We can disagree there. And what I meant regarding the female roles is they are way more apprehensive to give them flaws/they are more Likely to have super-super powers. Not that they are turning them into damsels or anything on screen. Quite to the contrary. 
 

Also, I actually liked how the Maidens specifically shamed Rand for treating women as damsels. So yes you are right it was there, but also addressed quite well in world. I Definitely hope we get that subplot in the future. As for people being protected and saved the men and women alike save each other a bunch. 

3 hours ago, ArrylT said:

 

This is the best fan casting I’ve seen so far. Good find. I tip my hat to you.

45 minutes ago, FanofKnotai said:

1st how do you have any clue as to what their intentions are? If what you’re saying is true than the only reason they are doing is to say “nah nah how do you like it being done to you”….that’s silly and makes ruining the story even worse. 2nd I totally agree that superhero/comic stories in general are  biased and when a female lead comes along that’s kicking the guys butts, I cheer. LOUDLY. But, 3rd, that is in NO WAY the same as taking a story that was already balanced in its original format and unbalancing it only so you can use it for a childish tit for tat. (If your theory is indeed correct)

I think it is probably more along the lines of a perfect storm of unintended consequences. They are overcorrecting for women right now and that paired with the truly abysmal additions to the men’s story arcs, it is not a good look. It is making me raise my eyebrows at this point to be honest. The fact is none of the negative additions have been given to the women leads. If anything, changes they are given are cool factor/beneficial. All the negatives have been given to the men. This may not be done out of malevolence towards men, but the overprotection of female characters as if they are fragile and needed to be handled with care, leads to the only negative changes that are present are being given to men, because they are the only ones they are “allowed” to be made to look bad, because heaven forbid female leads have legitimate character flaws. This being said, there are a lot of bad changes, so this is why I think some have been questioning the intent of the showrunners. Although you are right, many are taking it a bit far. I don’t think it is intentional, but I can see where people might be coming from. 

My guess would be they want those pure landscape shots visually without a bunch of buildings. I do think a walk through an orchard or something would be nice. I was honestly waiting to see Rand and Mat meet Almen but they cut Caemlyn. They could have been passing farmland on the way there, and it would have the really nice reference to food later in the series too. 
 

*But I do agree, even  Frodo and Sam walked through corn fields and Merry and Pippin get into farmer Maggot’s crops.*

On 12/16/2021 at 2:55 PM, chri5 said:

Rand going to that bloody gate guard every day ? 

Him accidentally “playing” by stubbornly not playing was always fun to watch unfold. 

18 minutes ago, dwn said:

Tam still hasn't used a sword or been in a real fight in 20 odd years. So we don't get to see him cut down several trollocs, almost certainly due to time/budget constraints--that hardly means someone is trying to make him less "cool". The important part of that scene is that Tam 1) has a sword and 2) gets injured.

What? Seriously? A blademaster actually looking like a blademaster as he was portrayed in the book isn’t important? I would argue it is equally important as displaying the prowess of the Aiel. But agree to disagree, plus what’s done is done. 

16 hours ago, dwn said:

In all fairness, you could rephrase it like:

• A middle-aged soldier-turned-shepherd who hasn't used a sword in 20 years is a bit rusty when fighting giant monsters.
• An exceptionally fit young woman who's been actively fighting over the past several months is--despite being pregnant--still formidable when facing off against typical foot soldiers.

He and Abel do the quarterstaff fighting every year which he is the only one who could beat him which suggests he does stay fit and does do martial arts. And in the books he does kill a handful…so the first part is objectively false. As for the second yeah the maidens are badass, it was cool, but my point isn’t that she shouldn’t be, my point is people keep trying to tell me Tam shouldn’t be. 
 

*What’s more than that, we have now seen Tam young and old wielding a blademaster sword doing hardly anything with it. I haven’t been convinced as a viewer that a heron marked blade is supposed to mean anything significant yet. At this point, it might as well just be a cool makers mark. Nobody even said anything in Fal Dara to Rand.*

Me: Tam should have killed like 3 or 4 Trollocs in the barn. 

Responses: “He’s old, out of practice, and we can’t do everything like it was done in the books.”

Me: “A woman going into labor can take out like half a dozen dudes? Multiple of which coordinated their attacks?”

Responses: “I’ve seen women do yoga and CrossFit while pregnant.” 
 

? ??

One more thing I’ll toss in. Although I loved Lan’s added story I wish there was the story of the best soldiers in his nation dying to smuggle him out vs. just one family. 
 

*Am I misremembering this? I thought there were a bunch of the best swordsmen in the land protecting him and then by New Spring there was just a few who raised him and then the one left before he joins Moiraine.* 

Blood snow - was pretty sick, and the veil was up but took it off to breathe better during contractions/tired from battle so it didn’t bother me. I loved it for Tigraine that was awesome. 
 

Machin Shin - Interesting adaptation, wasn’t upset, kinda was hoping for like an insane chorus of footballer fans singing the song in the distance, with a sense of dread as it got closer but this was good, I liked it too. It does feel like they are making some characters overpowered at this point needs more balance. Glad Loial got a few history lines in there that was a nice touch. 
 

Mat- Nice recovery all things considered, pretty smooth dialogue explaining where he went and I accept it. (Still not happy on his backstory and they have a major recovery to make up ground for). Also, Mat doesn’t learn Rand is the Dragon until book two and just got knocked out?or away? At the Eye if I’m not mistaken so this is fine. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Loial- bless your heart Brother Book. I love you on screen, so stop taking his development and giving it away. Man, does he shine when given screen time. Give me more Loial. 

Padan Fain- I really like how they did this. Great job. He was always lurking and still is. 
 

Perrin- sigh…Kills his wife and is into Egwene and they have to make Rand and him fight over her?…the character assassination to Perrin is quite unforgivable to me at this point. He was one of my favorite characters and I cringe whenever I see him on screen. It’s heartbreaking to me. I’m really trying. 
 

Tam- honestly, loved Tam in this episode. (Still kinda mad he didn’t even get to take out one trolloc himself but Tigraine while giving birth gets to merk a bunch of dudes.) but Tam tenderly helping her give birth was amazing, had they had him kill her and find the baby I would have dipped. So, glad that didn’t happen. Tam is still best dad.
 

Rand- All he’s done for six episode is whine about Egwene and comfort Mat a bit.
Then we finally get a call back to his dad in the woods, but I’m not sure it was quite enough to satisfy book readers or non-book readers to be honest. I’m curious to see if there will be backlash due to the reveal, just since he was placed on the back burner for so long, I do give them points for having the callback though and a shout out to Elder Haman for predicting that. Nice call.

Two bonuses: “the hinting to the flame and the void.” Watch the torches as he breathes before letting loose his arrows. And “three beautiful women.” Nice. 

Nynaeve - Gets another cool moment and good character development. Honestly, she is why I watch the show. Tugged her braid!!! It happened!!! Finally!!! 
 

Lan - Proper title. Heartfelt backstory. Good development between him and Nynaeve. Got a good tracking joke in there. “King without a kingdom.” These two are the best adaptations in my opinion. 

Moiraine- she’s great, but don’t give Loial’s development to her. Not excited she opened the ways, took away from him, she’s already slaying it. Did great this episode too for when she was there.
 

Egwene- Feels like Egwene. Not mad, didn’t get a ton of her own development but nice shared moments. She also does feel super indecisive. Didn’t like the love triangle stuff.

One of my favorite episodes. That could be inflated simply because Rand finally got a fair shake, but it was a long wait  and I think it will make people mad in multiple camps.

7 hours ago, Agitel said:

I am concerned about how any battle at the Eye will look. I feel like battles with the OP will look more cheesy in live action than in animation. That's a broad, general comment about any possible live adaptation, and not specific to the show we have.

I hope they make the focal point of battles the effect being done and not the weave itself unless absolutely necessary. I actually liked the episode 4 battle, there were some things they could have done to improve it but overall, pretty decent. I want them to lean into the effects of actions. Explosions, fireballs, wind, lighting, balefire, etc. focus on the tangible action itself. 
 

*it would also be cool to get a non channeler perspective at some point.

9 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Sorry, I should have included the ?

Ahhh fair haha. I am, what can I say. I’m trying to get out of head canon and what not. But there is a lot I’m liking from the teaser too. The portrayal of Aiel fighting prowess is looking top shelf. 

2 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

You do realize you're complaining about a 2 second sound clip in a 30 second teaser trailer?

Easy does it, I also said I’ll wait and see. As well as that it sounds nitpicky. 

Machin Shin: hmmm, I’ll wait and find out. I always imagined it more desperate, pleading, chaotic, and excited or fervent to kill. It gave off a sense of urgency for me in the book and I wasn’t getting that from the trailer. All of the urgency is coming from the physicality of the wind but I didn’t really detect any urgency due to the sound. It Felt droning. This is probably nitpicky/can’t please everyone, I accept this, but I do think I will enjoy this more than Mashadar and Shadar Logoth. Also, Loial is leading them in the Ways in the teaser so this made me happy. 

7 hours ago, Masha said:

 

I forgot to count. But how many Forsaken figures were there in Episode 5?

Producers have a limited budget and some Forsaken get very minimal action and appearance and most of it behind scenes. Combining them to get greater role for them would make them more impactful and save money. The only major requirement I have they have to have equal ratio of male to female plus Ishamael.

1. Demandred = Mazin Taim (RJ original plan)

2. Lanfear 

3. Rahvin - combine with Sammael (perhaps move end battle to Shadar Logoth to get connection with Moridin)

4. Moghedien (necessary for Nynaeve and Brigitte)

6. Graendal- combine with Semirhage

7.Mesaana - combine with Aran'gar , she can manipulate both Aes Sedai groups easily and change her appearances

8 Asmodean - needs to teach DR

9 Ba'alzamon/Ishamael/Moridin

‐‐-

Feel free to drop or combine:

1. Aginor/Osan'gar - feels like he is there just there to get to #13, all of his appearances are partnered with other Forsaken or Darkfriends who can take over his lines.

2. Be'lal - 2 minor appearances, threatens Rand to take Callador, gets killed instantly by Moraine. Some of his lines can be given to Ishamael or Lanfear.

3. Sammael - can be combined with Rahvin character.

4. Semirhage - should be combined with Graendal. Can be both mental and physical abuser/torturer easily making her the most terrifying female Forsaken with horror plot.

5. Aran'gar- if Rafe is smart he would steer clear of problematic aspects of this character and fold her "join the rebels" arc with "control the Tower" arc of Masaana

 

I think there was only 8-9 which is what I was anticipating. 

3 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

No they haven't.

They've put female characters forward. That's all. No male characters have been "diminished" and none of the female characters are "beyond reproach". The show has presented viewers with a world where females occupy positions of power. That's it. 

 

I agree that the women aren’t beyond reproach, but rather are all faithfully adapted or close to it and then improved on in areas. I do however think there are tons of examples where men are diminished, have had their thunder stolen, or have been given atrocious backstory. Plus, diminish by definition means “made to seem less impressive.” I don’t know a more apt description. 

 

31 minutes ago, JenniferL said:

Fun fact! Today I learned that this movie was the first onscreen role for the actress that plays Siuan. 

Oh my gosh, the moment you said it, it clicked in my mind. That is a fun fact! Thanks.

11 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Excellent analysis and  I like most of it.  We need Asmodean, He is critical for the DR to develop his channeling skills.  Rahvin could certainly take over as the antagonist at the battle of Cairhen.  I would recommend they keep them all.  It is a way to keep score and know that our side is winning or whittling away the dead wood as Sammael says.

 

Another out of the box thought.  They could potentially pluck Lanfear from the pattern and thereby they wouldn't have to write Mo out of the script. I hope they don't but who can tell.  My mirror is cloudy on a good day.

I totally want them to keep all of them, but I was concerned about characters not getting enough screen time for viewers to care about them, and I think that is already happening with main cast. So I think they will have to pair them down unfortunately or have the crew kill a few right off the bat. 
 

*afterthought, they could introduce them in the world of dreams with their secret meetings in a cold open too, this would give all of them screen time at the same time. Could be a clever way to build them up, as long and it isn’t the only way they build character development. 

7 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Those are obviously very good aiel humor because I don't get them ?

I did my best to make them sorta kinda not make sense. Mission accomplished! 

- Caemlyn Throne Room 

- Extended time with Loial in the Light’s Blessing/ The Queen’s Blessing

- Dialogue and counterpoints about the axe with Elyas to balance out Tinker ideology / Perrin actually killing Whitecloaks 

- Mordeth luring the boys into a treasure room And Mat noticing he doesn’t have a shadow. 

Some Aiel jokes for you too.

1 minute ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

I am not sure if it is official lore but the impression I get is that those who channel spontaneously have at least a certain minimum level of power - certainly those I recal being mentioned as having started themselves (including Siuan, Moiraine, Liandrin, Theodrin) are above the threshold to test as AS and I do not recall any mentioned who are not.  Those mentioned as particularly weak (Morgase, Sorilea) certainly 

had the opportunity to have been taught.

Yeah, but Sorilea is another example of what could also be seen as a political and cultural interest for the tower later in the series if they did decide to take her. And the Aiel are talented Dreamers so that could be another potential explanation / bargaining chip in taking her when they (correct me if I’m wrong didn’t they come up with some sort of exchange student program? Or mention it?) but I definitely agree that it takes more mental gymnastics to explain not taking any channeling woman who wants to be trained or stay, even as a novice. Then again, that could be another interesting way to bring up the Kin, which I thought was a cool subplot but many do not. 

Couldn’t it also be that wilders that aren’t found by the age of 25 rarely are able to break their blocks / or are increasingly difficult to teach, and therefore if they are already “safe”, particularly if they aren’t very strong, they just don’t see it as logical to enter them? (Nynaeve being a special case because of her power) But at this point novices are also basically servants in a lot of ways, so it would still make sense to me that they take in any willing applicant for as long as they wish…they still need workers and why not someone who essentially volunteers?

Yeah, felt out of place when Nynaeve added that tidbit. It could also be that she was just extremely weak. Morgase was in the tower for as long as she was more as a formality than anything else, and this could be the same scenario for the wisdom but without the diplomatic ties encouraging them to keep trying. 

5 hours ago, TheChief said:

So my point was that people seem to be really torn apart by a work of fiction being changed for tv. That seems odd to me- not “who I am”, if you will, and difficult to relate to.

Oh I see what you’re saying  now, yeah, I get changes for tv due to time. Some have already mentioned the cut of Bombadil as an example for LotR etc. a lot of that made sense to me, but there are cuts they’ve made and bizarre injections into character development for multiple characters I still can’t get behind in WoT. I’m trying to, but it’s so frustrating. So now the lore is different to accommodate and extend the mystery element they’ve created, nevertheless, in doing so it’s cutting a ton from one character in particular and so they are really shortchanged so far, and the other two male leads have borderline character assassination in their set up for no reason other than to do what showrunners think “makes it edgy.” I mean, the ladies for the most part have been faithful renditions in my eyes, with a few changes that only elevate their character even more (sometimes at the expense of the men) but all the guys have been given glaringly abysmal additions or have plot points entirely removed. 
 

I feel if the situation were reversed and all the men were done faithfully with beneficial additions and they randomly injected major character flaws into the female leads and cut their plot points making them useless, we would have an equally large backlash, but people would actually acknowledge it as a serious issue and potentially call the showrunners sexist as well. Imagine telling those fans “it’s a new turning”. But because it happened to the guys it’s okay.

9 minutes ago, Windigo said:

 while they have made major additions and story plots that while most feel WoT they are not needed (Egwene river scene, funeral scenes) or overdone like the bad ass pyro channeling Nynaeve. 

This is what I think the show runners consider positive additions, but this paired with the truly horrible additions to the men just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, and it really bothers me. They will not only go out of their way to elevate female members, they go out of their way to diminish male members at the exact same time. And it isn’t even just the male leads it’s many of the secondary roles too. 

2 minutes ago, TheChief said:

Hmmm… I kind of doubt that. Writing successfully for tv is a skill that I believe very few wot readers have, which is what is needed to adapt the story to tv. Imho, the changes are being made for payoff in a tv format down the road. Heaps of lore doesn’t make for compelling tv, I’m afraid. 
 

honestly I don’t understand the devotion to “lore”. I mean, it’s not a religious text. 

Why does something have to be a religious text for lore to maintain meaning or have any significance narratively or otherwise? 
Also, it might not be a religious text but much of the lore and even plot was pretty much inspired by every religious text in the world.