1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

So there are things I really like so far and things I'm disappointed in, that's to be expected. Overall I am happy with the trajectory of the season and at the end of episode 3 I was wanting to jump straight in to the next episode which I think is a good sign for the show as a whole. I probably have a long enough list of grievances but they aren't big enough for me to hate or stop watching or anything that extreme, they are just gripes that I wish had been done better. Full book and show spoilers below:
 

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An example would be the entire idea behind the 4 leaving with Moiraine. There was no real set up to it. I will be watching ep1 with my partner later who has never read the books and I'll be really interested to see how someone new to the show reacts to it - to me it made absolutely no sense within the world they have built in the episode. There is no hint that the 4 have been specifically targeted by the Trollocs. I loved *loved* Padan Fain's small cameo and him disappearing as the Trollocs attacked, but I really wish there had been a dragon fang on scene that showed the 4 of their families were targeted at the very least. Just something to convince them to go, because it made no sense to me - especially in broad daylight with the entire Two Rivers looking at them. Nobody challenged the Aes Sedai, not one of them? 

 

 

The more you poke at something like that the more it really doesn't hold up and is quite a disappointment for what is, really, the key inciting incident of the entire series. 

 

That really is my main gripe and disappointment, outside of that I have small issues that I wish had been handled better. I really loved the Darkfriend reveal in episode 3 (apart from her chasing them through the village, that seemed silly). I liked Thom after initial hesitation with him, he was a good conduit for info dumping about the Aiel and it was done well. I thought the opening of showing a male channeler with the madness being caught was a really great idea of an opener - but something about the execution of that scene was a little off. But overall I liked it. I like the Perrin change for the television show, it doesn't sit well with me moreso because of who I know Perrin to be from the books, but I think for the show it makes sense to lay the groundwork for his issues further down the line. I also love that there are already theories about whether his wife was a DF - if the show can get the WoT FAQ up and running again with theories that will be wonderful ha! 

 

The Whitecloaks - an excellent introduction and really sinister to show the hands cut off the Aes Sedai. That scene serves as brilliant set up for when the gang meet the Whitecloaks on the road, which is a great scene for teaching us that the Aes Sedai can tell the truth in many ways, which in turn can feed in to a distrust of them. Excellent. 

 

Nynaeve I was not sure on from episode 1, but I really enjoyed her in episode 3 and thought there was some nice groundwork for her and Lan's relationship. 

 

The change to Mat's family is understandable in some ways but I felt like they went a little overboard, especially with showing his mother almost as a drug addict or something? And then it seemed like she was badly grief-stricken in the lantern scene? So did they lose a son or daughter or something? It felt like a change that wasn't executed well at all. But Mat overall I like, the only thing I'd have liked to see would be some skill with knives vs. a Trolloc in that first episode, but being honest I can't remember if it was Thom who taught him all of that in the books. 

 

I was disappointed not to get any of Tam's fever dreams but I must say I think/hope that will come in a future episode as a flashback for Rand as he struggles with who he is. That is probably my other main gripe, I feel as though there hasn't been much in terms of who the Dragon is out of the 4, just that it is one of them. There's been very little questioning about their pasts, and I would have thought if you make Egwene a live candidate to be the DR, then the conversation with Moiraine teaching her a little of the Power would be a lot more... loaded? Rand's dream with BZ and the others having different versions is probably the first hint that he is different, and then him knocking down the door was not at all subtle. Coupled with Thom's infodump on the Aiel and the focus on the red hair,  I think any mystery about the DR will be gone by now. So I hope they don't lean in to it too much more and focus more on Rand struggling against the idea that it is him. 

 

My other main annoyance is that Lan has not called Rand sheepherder yet, and there hasn't been any talk of the Void or heron marked blades. 

 

 

 

 

I mean, I certainly disagree there was no setup to leave. Moraine clearly told them if they stayed, they would all die, along with their families. The fades and Trollocs would come back in force if they stayed. I think thats more than enough setup to get them to leave, after witnessing the slaughter of a bunch of villagers and believing it's their fault.

The show definitely has problems, but I don't know what people were expecting. There is absolutely no way to to create this show beat for beat with the book beyond making it 14 terrible seasons of 26 episodes each, which would end up being about the terrible, campy, quality of the Sword of Truth tv series (not that those books were much better than the show).

Just now, jeffreycwagner said:

The hope is we are 5% of the total audience, but I would guess right now we are well over 50%, and the balance have been dragged into this by the 50%.

I mean, I definitely disagree. We are a tiny percentage, the rest will find it the same way they find other streaming shows. 

It's well shot. There are a very few small problems, but anyone hoping it follow every beat and storyline in the book are being ridiculous, and non book readers will not have the same complaints as obsessive fans.

7 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

It doesn't help the audience understand though because it gives two incorrect assessments of men channeling the One Power, things that are never in question in EOTW. Unless of course she's meant to be correct in her description of the problem, in which case I can't imagine that going down well with the fan base.

 

He's created the series for people who haven't read the book. This is why we're getting things like that, the Dragon Reborn mystery and Lan with Moiraine in the bath. We're meant to get the wrong idea and then be shocked when it's revealed later we're wrong, the execution is completely intentional.

 

Presumably the idea is that book fans will sit through it and like it even if they show is drawing out a very obvious reveal far longer than it should be.

How is it longer than it should be? Perhaps to newer readers it was obvious, but at this point in the book, back in 1992, we certainly did not yet know Rand was the dragon. I don't get why you're against them playing it out that way for new viewers. It's not just us watching. We're probably 5% of the total audience.

3 minutes ago, Texas Grognard said:

Having (and then killing) Laila works for a lot of reasons.

 

We all know that Perrin falls off a third of the way through the book series.  He's so inactive, so pensive, and so focused on Faile--and it all happens in inner monologue.  They needed a way to visualize that for the show (just watch for the flashbacks that are inevitably going to feature in lieu of inner-monologue). 

 

This gives him a reason to hesitate for violence and be afraid of his own strength.  It's much more present for us because in the book his family is killed off screen.

 

But additionally--I'm calling it now--Laila was a Darkfriend.

 

• She was estranged from the Women's Circle--didn't even attend Egwene's ceremony.
• She did not participate in the celebrations afterward.
• She was oddly estranged from Perrin in some weird ways (like maybe she married him just to keep an eye on him)
• When he struck she had her hammer/axe over head in both hands and was about to strike him.  

 

On the last point--look at the freeze frame.  Two handed grip, overhead.  The Trolloc is way dead.  There aren't any other trollocs in the smithy.  She's far enough back that she has a great vantage point to establish this. She's going for Perrin.

 

Finally, I think Perrin acts fast through his wolf-brother instincts.  That's going to estrange him from the wolves too, not just violence generally.  He felt the threat and acted.

I need to rewatch, I didn't get the idea she was attacking him.

Just now, Ararana24 said:

 

Whatever it would be by today's laws, it's still a huge disservice to the books and the character. I can't believe the rumor turned out to be true. Moronic decision. 

I mean, I don't love it, but I won't complain until I see the payoff. Give them time.

9 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

I don't doubt that there will be some who will like it, but IMHO it needs a LOT of people to like it to survive.

It's about $80m a series.  There are no free lunches.  The reaction is too mixed right now after the initial episode drop and it's getting it's fair share of people saying it's not only poor, but awful.

 

I watched the two episodes again that I watched last night - it's not just the pace it moves at (which is why I think they have the back story shorts which very few will bother with)...the story itself is not being told very well.  I did actually get more out of watching it a second time, but how many will bother with that?   It doesn't help that the sound quality seems off and the dialogue is not clear - especially Rand and Lan. That might be because I watched on a laptop, might try watching it on the big screen downstairs.  But overall the production looks and sounds poor to me at least - which I blame Rafe for.

 

 

 

I mean, hard disagree. The sound is incredible, and so is the cinematography. Watching on a laptop is a you problem.

Some of the practical effects are bad though, Trollocs looked horrible in movement. And from what I see, the public and critics enjoy it.

1 minute ago, Ararana24 said:

 

Strong disagree. The show even gave him 3-4 seconds of mindlessly hacking a dead trolloc before he chops down his wife. I'm not saying he did it intentionally, but it's still murder.  

 

Such a waste of material. 

No, at best it would be manslaughter (I'm an actual Criminal Defense Lawyer). It clearly was an accident.

6 minutes ago, Ararana24 said:

So let me get this straight...

 

Rafe walks into the pitch meeting "Wheel of Time, only Perrin murders his (pregnant?) wife in a fit of fury"

 

Harriet, who wasn't paying attention "You had me at 25 million dollars"

 

Friends, this is why you never give up your executive decision rights. I'm shocked they honestly thought that was the best way to explain why a big guy tries to be careful with other people. RJ would be rolling in his grave if he knew.

 

Episode 1 was extremely rushed. Amazon paid a lot of money for this show, why didn't they make the pilot 90 minutes to give it extra time to bring people into the world. Also, the cold open was a bit jarring. The 'a wind picked up' should have been at the very beginning. 

 

I'll admit episode 2 was better, I almost fell asleep through episode 3. 

He didn't murder his wife in a fit of fury, it was clearly an accident. I don't like the choice either, but this wasn't rage, it was a man trying to stay alive, a man who had never been in a fight for his life, it was a wide swing at what he thought was a murderous trolloc.

25 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

because when they’re in focus and moving around they look like Halloween costumes. 

This is my problem. Nobody looked at those Trolloc shots and decided that they looked good. The fade looked awesome, I liked them. But the trollocs, wow, they looked like clumsy people with heavy hats. 

11 hours ago, Maximillion said:

You are being kind. It was terrible. Just a fast sprint through as much as they could cram into an episode without any development of the story. 
episode 1 was better but only because of the trolloc raid. The rest of it was the same mad rush through the story. I can’t believe non book readers will find any depth to this mess.

Man, its not a book, of course it moves faster, the group is on the run. The last thing I want is huge dumps of information. They are doing an excellent job at showing so book readers understand, but new watchers can learn and speculate without spoiling every beat.

And I know two non book readers who loved the series so far when we finished this morning. They followed along just fine.

I personally think Thom was the best character so far. His voice is incredible, considering the tenor of the tune that went with it. Maybe people who aren't musicians don't hear the pain and beauty in that melody.

Anyone who expects a literal one to one translation from book to screen is unreasonable. That would make Thom incredibly cartoonish, and just wouldn't fit well in live action. 

The only character I think they've messed up is Mat, and he's been recast. Im just sad we have a whole season with him. Making Mat a degenerative gambler from the outset, raised by terrible parents. Turning him into a malicious grave robber. And the actor just never comes across as Matt to me. Except when he's sick, Mat should be the comic relief. I just can't square away the decisions they've made for him. But the rest of the cast, so far, I think is good.

I had hoped we would meet Elyas in episode 3, but meeting the travelers was cool.

On 11/16/2021 at 1:26 PM, Gothic Flame said:

Omg yes. 

Factor in the additional scrutiny the TV show will receive by a new readership.

I myself will wait until a proper TV series is done. Not some some shiny flashy thing. EotW in a different medium...

If this fails, you'll absolutely never get what you want. Nobody is going to spend money to remake a failed fantasy series, and Amazon has the rights for at least a decade. 

This is what we're getting. Nothing else.

I've enjoyed the show, but im not overjoyed with it. I really didn't like Mat, so I'm actually happy he's being recasted.

I don't like that they went with Perrin being married, and the way they resolved it, I just don't know. 

Trollocs looked incredible, but moved extremely awkwardly in close ups.

I don't love how channeling looks. 

Overall though, I liked it. Its not amazing, but it's good. I'mhopeful for the rest of the season, and so far the pacing is good, which was a huge worry for me.

 

We got very little in the way of hints about Nakomi in AMoL, but their location make this thread full-spoilers by necessity.

 

So, let's have it. Did anyone glean anything about Nakomi that we didn't know before AMoL?

 

PS

If you want another poll-option, let me know.

It seems to me that the powers she displays in ToM were akin to what Rand did in the end with his pipe, as well as how he made food taste good again. She seemed to have managed to add more coals to the fire, and make delicious food. Plus, the inspiration for her comes from deep in RJ's notes on Rand. All this suggests there is a connection to Rand. 

 

Another thing to note is that Nakomi's name is an obvious derivative of Nokomis, an Iroquois name meaning "Daughter of the Moon" as well as "Grandmother". These names can fit Lanfear very well, but even though I can imagine a situation where she wants the Aiel to survive, I can't see her helping Aviendha of all people, nor can she possibly have said anything to Rand when he came out of SG (she was dead by then).

 

The only other character that can be called Daughter of the Moon, and Grand Mother, is Egwene. I really resist this idea, because for Nakomi to be Egwene, we'd need to have time travel involved.

 

But consider these quotes:

 

 

Startlingly, a smile bloomed on Sorilea's leathery face. Her multitude of bracelets clattered as she shifted her shawl in a satisfied manner. "You see? I told you she would understand. She could be Aiel."

 

 

 

If you take what you did to meet your toh and make it so it might as well never have happened, how have you met toh? Remember your Aiel heart, girl.

 

 

 

She wished her Aiel heart and her Two Rivers head could get together.

 

 

Its been constantly remarked that Egwene could easily be Aiel. She even considers that she has an Aiel heart... could she just be Aiel at heart?

 

And then there's the manner of her death. One way or another, her weave plays with time. Its supposed to freeze someone in time, but what if it does more? After all, there are ripple effects to balefire's burning of threads back in time. What if there are ripple effects to the Flame too? What if, instead of unspooling the Pattern, using the Flame does the opposite, and creates events in the past that allow the Pattern to be stabilized in the future? 

 

This is admittedly so far out as to be ridiculous. But perhaps by this or some other mechanism, Egwene was actually there for Aviendha and the Aiel, and is responsible for the remnant of the remnant (the heart of the Aiel?) surviving?

 

And her role with Rand in the end also would make sense. We had a lot of foreshadowing of Egwene "killing" Rand. Instead, she nudges him along the path that will "help him die" but not kill him.

 

So, my theory is this: Nakomi is an ancient name, referring to a soul that's a counterpart to the Dragon's. She complements his purpose (as did Egwene), and also has strong ties to the Aiel. Perhaps her last birth was as an Aiel Wise One, and this is the form she choses to take even after her death in this life. After the death of Egwene's body, perhaps because of the manner of her death, Nakomi was able to do several things. Firstly, as Egwene, she conversed with Rand about death. Then she saw to the Aiel. Then she returned one last time to nudge Rand towards his "death".

 

And a little bit more to hint at a connection:

 

 

"If you'll excuse me," Nakomi said. "I need to see to nature."

 

 

 

In that moment—maiming, destroying, bringing death upon the enemy— she felt as if she were one with the land itself. That she was doing the work it had longed for someone to do for so long. The Blight, and the Shadowspawn it grew, were a disease. An infection. Egwene—afire with the One Power, a blazing beacon of death and judgment—was the cauterizing flame that would bring healing to the land.

 

 

Egwene does seem to "see to nature" quite a bit in aMoL.

 

Anyway, this is admittedly a whacky theory. Feel free not to add Egwene to the voting list. But... thoughts?

 

Seems like you are really, really stretching to make a connection to Egwene, imo.

CanUFeelTheLove?, on 24 Jan 2013 - 21:13, said:I have to admit, a lot of the books I was either neutral about Egwene or thought she was kind of a jerk. One thing Sanderson did in this last book is make me like her.... and then the bastard killed her! EVIL.
I really like her interaction with Tuon. It was one of the few times in all the books that I was behind her completely. And, I had problems in the earlier books with her not wanting Rand to break the seals. In this book at least she had a reason and a time. That made her complaint about his plan seem more than just her whining. I liked that she was the one to face Taim. It was not what I expected in the least yet made complete and utter sense. He was the Top Dreadlord.

Actually, Taim was not a dreadlord at all. He was 'Chosen'.

I'm happy, because the whole series is fantastic.

I am sad that it is over.

I am crushed that RJ never got to finish.

I am grateful to BS for doing what nobody else would have.

I just finished The Half Orcs Omnibus, by David Galgish, last night. It was actually a fun little series. Not up to the caliber of Robert Jordan, Steven Ericson, or Goerge Martin, but he crafted a fun tale. I still have the Confessor trilogy and The Omen Machine from the Sword of Truth. So the goal is to read The Hobbit quickly, since the moviue is coming out, and then try to finish the Confessor trilogy before A Memory of Light is released. Then Omen Machine. Next, I am going to start the the Malazan Book of the Fallen series. So that is my next 3-5 months of Fantasy reading, since I probably won't get around to updating this thread regularly, its easier just to give the books and timeline.

That is on top of my own work and classes, so my schedule is not short of Fantasy.