So, uh, pretty sure they could have annihilated Caemlyn, bro

 

You might well be.

 

Jaric Mondoran turned the second greatest city of the Age of Legends into a lake of glass by himself.

ockquote> I don't think I'm going to put much stock in that particular argument in all honesty since we have no idea of the circumstance or details as it all happens off screen in Rand's past life 'memories'. I suspect it might well have been inflated at some point in the 3000 years since it happened.

No it's a fact. The Aiel of old were part of it. Rand experiences that memory fresh. Plus we hear "enough power to level a city" over a dozen times in this story. A full circle of 72 with angreal from the WT stash could have done it in seconds. Barely breaking a swear.

No, it happened off screen and he was told about it by Solinda. You have no idea if he had a sa'angreal or if there were other factors at play. 

Yes it happened off screen, but it wasn't 3000 years exaggerated. It had just occurred when rand was told.

He did have a Sanangreal. It was state (I believe). Still. 1 man, a larger city they had a potential for a full circle plus Sanangreal.

 

 

 

So, uh, pretty sure they could have annihilated Caemlyn, bro

You might well be.

 

Jaric Mondoran turned the second greatest city of the Age of Legends into a lake of glass by himself.

I don't think I'm going to put much stock in that particular argument in all honesty since we have no idea of the circumstance or details as it all happens off screen in Rand's past life 'memories'. I suspect it might well have been inflated at some point in the 3000 years since it happened.

 

 

 

Ok, look. The Light has some powerful channelers, 'angreal, and circles

 

One bro in TSR glassed an entire city. I'm pretty sure the combined force of female channelers plus the Rand loyalist Ashaman could torch Caemlyn and all the guys in it in a few hours. Then you redeploy to the Northern fronts.

yep. but it's Camelyn! Who cares if every city in the North is burned to ashes....not the pretty one! we like that one!

 

*rolls eyes*

 

 

100% exactly what they should have done.

Is this where the church lady screams "OH WONT SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN".

Lol. We're fighting for existence itself. Guess what? Eff morals. There's no "sadness" anymore at this point. Embrace death indeed

 

 

 

 

 

Another question about battles. Why did the Sharans only use their gateways once and then seemingly forget about them(aside from the fact that they could have decimated the lights regular forces)?

I'm going to guess their battle plan was thought up by the mysterious. Male Sharan channelers which don't exist therefore have bad battle strategies.

:O

 

I love you

Seriously tho. It pisses me off and makes 0 sense. Forget discussing strategy and missing soldiers these guys DO NOT EXIST. They birder them all at 18. So wtf. Did Demandred time travel?!?!?!?

Lol @the space idea. Brilliant. But they have no concept of space. Ocean water would have ruined that earth also, but when you're fighting for survival of EXISTENCE some things can be forgiven.

Walking clear across two countries then figuring out it was a bad idea is amazing to me. No one thought that odd?!?!?

Another question about battles. Why did the Sharans only use their gateways once and then seemingly forget about them(aside from the fact that they could have decimated the lights regular forces)?

I'm going to guess their battle plan was thought up by the mysterious. Male Sharan channelers which don't exist therefore have bad battle strategies.

Well to be honest in prolonged battles channelers always revert to fire, lightning and earth explosions along with air shields. I'm guessing its easier and less tiresome. I mean fancy sword work is nice, but chopping kills more over an extended period in a crowd. Same theory applies.

Now, back to the make Sharan channelers. They heck did they come from

Oh and where did Shara get male channelers? We've been told for books the only male channeler they have is the king. So where did the rest come from? They kill them at 18 did they suddenly stop that practice? I'm ok with that but let's be real how many could they have if they suddenly stopped this year? Less than 100 id say and them not trained in actively channeling. So... They're pure fodder.

Like many in the thread, I came away with a feeling that the numbers were off, the relative strength (not just numbers, but proficiency) of the forces were off, and I lost the scope of the battle because they were just numberless hordes. Particularly with the Dark Side forces simply being countless, the impact of killing a thousand trollocs is meaningless.

 

The worst, for me, was the Sharan army. The way it worked out, is they were strong enough to beat the White Tower army, but not overrun them. At the same time, though, they were also strong enough to stop the entirety of the Seanchan force teamed with the White Tower. It seems like if they were strong enough to equal that latter coalition, then the should have been able to finish off the Tower without any problem, before the Seanchan even got there.

 

It also seemed like we lost a lot of the Black Tower channelers. Wasn't there supposed to be something close to 1000 of them, and weren't the majority of those loyal to Taim? I don't know if the book even referred to 100 Asha'man the entire way through.

I posted about it in another thread. Apparently 2 out of 3 Ashaman died in the battle for the black tower which occurred off screen. Logain had 100 taim had 100 and Team Rand, being nice, had about 100. That estimate Taim gave for matching the WT was how many books ago? So we also have to assume they stopped recruiting before saiden was cleansed which is a lie. That was the only number I knew was off.

I guess I imagined the numbers were higher as I read. I did notice the lack of Aiel especially channeling wise ones, who are more numerous than the WT but they weren't given their own front to hold?

My first thought was, can we even all agree on rand? Personally I'm only a fan of "Dark Rand" whom I prefer to refer too as "Logical Rand".

Who hates Moraine? Or Thom? Oh yea and I've never heard anyone say the pay hate Flinn.

Okay I was re-reading Winter's Heart and in one of the first chapters (perhaps the first) we find out Rand is asking about Shara in Rhuidean. Do we find out why? Does it come up later in the book and I just forgot?

Wasn't this when he was still Emo Rand, and he was disturbed about how his existence affected the world negatively? He heard that a place he had never heard of, or seen was rioting just because he existed. He was bemoaning the loss, pain, and violence that he coming brought.

What we know for certain is ability to channel or being a wolfbrother is tied to the soul. Perrin will always be reborn as a wolfbrother in an Age where wolfbrothers exist and Egwene will always be reborn as a channeler where channelers exist.

Where does this knowledge come from? In particular, I mean:

1. That wolfkinship is tied to the soul.
    
   
2. That a soul always manifests such properties when they exist in the world.
   

I'm assuming it's an assumption because of the fact that hopper tells him the soul of wolves come to the wolf dream when they die, and I'm pretty sure he says or implys that Perrin's soul would as well. So while I would question it as well, it is strongly implied that Perirn, being basically a wolf (within the wolf dream and such), he should always be one right?

We know channeling run in bloodlines, if a channeler have a child it is a bigger chance that child will be a channeler or that their children will be, but what about other abilities, if you have a sniffer is there a bigger chance a sniffer's children will inherit the ability? What about wolf brothers do that run in family lines?

That's a popular assumption by the characters in the books but it's by no means certain. There is evidence. Like Rand's children from Aviendha, Morgase-Elayne, Ayyad in Shara, Emarin-Algarin (there is mention of the family's male ancestors having an unnamed problem, most likely it's channeling) , or from AMoL Prologue:

 

Samma N'Sei

 

AFAIK there is no definitive answer to it in the interview database, someone correct me if I'm wrong. What we know for certain is ability to channel or being a wolfbrother is tied to the soul. Perrin will always be reborn as a wolfbrother in an Age where wolfbrothers exist and Egwene will always be reborn as a channeler where channelers exist.

 

Also can a woman be a sniffer?

Most likely. But we have only seen one sniffer, so I don't know. There can be wolfsisters though.

This is right on. There are a couple threads with people debating, myself included, on how can it be heridatary. Basically the math doesn't add up. But RJ strongly implys that it is able to be passed down when he says the WT has "culled" the ability out by gentling men. (Which makes 0 sense, but I won't debate that here again).

1) Theres no real location that it comes from. The Channeler sees it coming from right in front of them, people watching see it coming from their body. Like my comment earlier about shielding and a endlessly vast space that's impossibly small. It comes from all places and none

2) No one knows what worms become. We never will. It would be cool to know however.

3) I don't think the game can be won. I think it's a game meant to teach kids a lesson, and it cannot be won without cheating. I can make up a game that's impossible to win. I don't think it's a pure luck thing

4) No. Nothing says his future glory has to be in serivce of the light. However I'd think if she saw glory in the service on the DO, it would have blackness around it or something.

5) We don't know that for sure, however you have to remember Lanfear is pretty damn powerful and knows things. She's too powerful a pawn to give up. I'm pretty sure he went in just go get her

6) I'm not sure if there's an answer to this. However I would speculate they picked that role because someone before them did, and thus it became known as a place for Sea Folk AS. I'd imagine they like to hang together.

Did Berelain and Rhuarc have some love thing going on with each other in Lord of Chaos?

no Rhuarc and Berelain kind of adopted each other, Amys even went as far as to give her the daughters kiss or whatever

I had the impression that Berelain tried her seducing skills on Rhuarc, but he (or someone else) nipped it in the bud pretty quickly and effectively. It never says it, but there's something in they're early dialog that seemed to hint at it. I don't have quotes.

 

Rhurac made it quite clear to her (possibly in a physical way) in the Stone of Tear that he wouldn't tolerate her flirting with him. It's mentioned in LoC - or at least alluded to.

He alluded too it when he broke up the Faile and Ber fight. He said he'd have another talk with her like the one about her flirting. (He didn't use flirting)

Thanks Vard. Another situation to suggest what I'm saying is when Elayne gets carried away by the BA. They don't seem to be Linked (for the sheer amount of different weaves, as well as the fact that Asne used the BF-rod at the same time someone else was throwing fireballs), and yet Elayne is Shielded. This isn't absolute -- it's possible two of them Linked and Shielded Elayne while the others dealt with the army -- but it remains highly suggestive.

Yep. They weren't linked. There are 0 examples of someone being linked and able to channel if they're not controlling the circle, and every person who speaks of it says they can't. Hell even the forsaken mention it, when Demandred tells someone to link with him and he notes she won't because she'd be helpless cause only he could channel then.

Yoni is correct about linking. There are many examples, especially when Ny and Elayne learn about linking. It forms one single weave ,one channeler cannot tie off part of a linked weave, because when linked only one person can channel. That part is not up for debate. It's fact, in the book.

Now back to the shields, Recall how the "channeling conduit" is described. The same as the river of Sadiar, impossibly narrow yet vastly endless (Or some such drivel), in other words, it's difficult to discern the size of it. Those individual "soft points" he was feeling were individual shields. If each point was a piece of a shield, like pieces of a pizza, he would only need to shatter one to be able to channel again, since something would flow through it.

I believe it's just a quirky nature of channeling, the conduit doesn't have a size to it, persay, so when you shield someone and cut them off, the shield because as vast as the conduit, multiple shields meet at some point in that endless vastness, and yet each completely shut off the flow.

You kinda have to look beyond the pipe everyone is picturing in their minds. It's not exactly like that. It's not 3 dimensional.

That's about as good as I can explain it in text, the soft points meeting was how Rand's mind rationalized it.

Huh, I always interpreted the shielding as 6 Aes sedai linked to form the shield. Am I incorrect? Is the shielding at the end of LoC really 6 individual shields woven together?

Definitely six separate Shields. They've tied them off at different times, each doing so only when her abilities were deemed necessary to fend of the Shaido. Otherwise there couldn't have been both hard and soft dots there at the same time.

 

So, then, the strength of the shields must stack upon one another? That is to say, the strength of the shield upon Rand must have been a sum of each of the individual shields. What would function would linking to form shield serve, as done in ToM?

I think they're all seperate shields, but since you can't break thru all at once it lends extra strength. When you initally shield, it would be easier to use a linked shield, it'll break thru, but once he's shielded, 6 separate shields are stronger than 1 linked shield with 6 sisters, since he'd have to break thru all 6, giving them time to reshield him.

If that makes sense.

Good point. I'm actually not sure how the Female one was destroyed. How can something made to draw power in be destroyed by drawring power?I mean I understand how Rand destroyed his, he did it on purpose. But I always thought the Female one just destroyed the key. They I read closer and realized the actualy item was destroyed.

 

Nyneave. She was strong enough to use it, but apparently not strong enough to use it for the extent of time with she did without it "overheating". Not really sure why that would happen though. Afterall even the weakest channeller can use a angreal without it being destroyed. But then, the CK are sort of special. Their power levels are off the charts, so I suppose they're basically glass cannons. The "handle with extreme caution" type of equipement.

 

Actually the more likely reason was not the amount of Power drawn (far more saidin was used than saidar [an ant/mole hill next to a mountain]), or the strength of the channeler who used it (Nynaeve is cited as having sufficient strength, and the point you're referencing (Moghedien's comment) about the Choedan Kal being used at great strength for a long period of time is just as applicable to the male one--more so, because more Power was used). The most likely reason was the USE to which saidar was put.

 

Specifically, in the Cleansing Rand used saidar to wring the Taint from saidin--as if saidin were a wet towel, the Taint were the water, and saidar were the hands that wrung it. Of course it's actually more complex than that, and far worse--saidin and saidar cannot mix and Rand used that concept to generate the force that compressed the Taint out of saidin--and saidar was the side of the Power he used to generate that force.

 

Hence, saidar was the stressor, whilst saidin was largely passive--the effects on it being the result of the application of force upon it by saidar. And, as a result, though more saidin was used, it was saidar that expended the effort, and thus the saidar Choedan Kal that felt the strain of it (and like you might snap a tendon in your hand if you wrung a towel too forcefully, so too did the Choedan Kal break)

Damn Luck beat me too it. I was about to say, I really doubt it was a time thing, I mean, who knows how long it would take to destroy the Armies of the Shadow and seal the boar, it had to be the taint itself or something of the sort.

Thanks Yo and Sutt.

 

That's odd. So the WIndfinders are better at weather than the people in AOL, and it stressed the device. Hmm, I wonder if you can stress a Ter'Angral enough to break or if this proves it can't.

 

Oh well.

You can do it with a sarangreal - Choeden Kal.

 

He didn't overload it, he turned it's power back into itself. Theres a slight difference.

The female key is melted after cleansing saidin and useless.

 

Touche ya got me.

 

Interesting!

Hahaha! I'm sure you've gotten me already. Yeah, what's more interesting is that somewhere either in that book or the one previous, the Forsaken are at a meeting and someone says that Choeden Kal is indestructible - but maybe they meant the actual sarangreal and not the terangreal keys.

Good point. I'm actually not sure how the Female one was destroyed. How can something made to draw power in be destroyed by drawring power?I mean I understand how Rand destroyed his, he did it on purpose. But I always thought the Female one just destroyed the key. They I read closer and realized the actualy item was destroyed.

Thanks Yo and Sutt.

 

That's odd. So the WIndfinders are better at weather than the people in AOL, and it stressed the device. Hmm, I wonder if you can stress a Ter'Angral enough to break or if this proves it can't.

 

Oh well.

You can do it with a sarangreal - Choeden Kal.

 

He didn't overload it, he turned it's power back into itself. Theres a slight difference.

The female key is melted after cleansing saidin and useless.

Touche ya got me.

Interesting!

Thanks Yo and Sutt.

 

That's odd. So the WIndfinders are better at weather than the people in AOL, and it stressed the device. Hmm, I wonder if you can stress a Ter'Angral enough to break or if this proves it can't.

 

Oh well.

You can do it with a sarangreal - Choeden Kal.

He didn't overload it, he turned it's power back into itself. Theres a slight difference.

Thanks Yo and Sutt.

That's odd. So the WIndfinders are better at weather than the people in AOL, and it stressed the device. Hmm, I wonder if you can stress a Ter'Angral enough to break or if this proves it can't.

Oh well.

Re-reading tPoD. When Rand rains fire and lightning on his own troops (and kills Adley) using Callandor, do we know definitively if this is due to Saidin being "alive" following the use of the Bowl of the Winds or is it due to the flaw in Callandor?

 

combination of both, imo. We saw where another Asha'man lost control of his weave because of how "alive" saidin is. But there is no doubt that the magnification of the taint was on display, as Rand is out of control until Bashere breaks through.

A better question is, why did using the bowl cause Sadain to come alive? Was that ever explained?

What did the dice no longer spinning in mats head symbolise?

He wasn't in danger at that point.

The problem is, if villains acted competantly or didnt have a major character flaw, they would in general be unbeatable.

 

The reason for this is, for a good character to be heroic they have to be up against the odds, fighting against superior forces or vastly outnumbered. If the villain didnt do something stupid to screw it up, they'd never win and a lot of people wouldnt enjoy the story.

 

Myself i've always prefered characters which embody both darkness and light, even evil characters have to have reasons for what they do, and they must have good chracteristics to an extent, even if its just something as silly as a fondness for white fluffy cats. Purely evil characters are one dimensional and poorly written.

 

 

Also as for WoT Villains, bear in mind that most of them were corrupted due to their stupidity/jealousy/greed/hate. They were hardly the cream of the crop, and the darkside as a whole scheme against each other 10x more than against the light.

Pretty much exactly what I said. In a fair battle, power wise, all things equal, Evil would win every time unless they do something really stupid, or get really unlucky. The whole willing to do whatever it takes to win kinda gives you a huge edge.

I haven't really gotten into GRRM yet, but you're telling me the good guys get their asses handed to them over and over? Or they are willing to do what it takes, regardless of morals, to beat evil? Because otherwise they're lucky as hell.

That's not a completely valid comparison, because we've actually seen very little of GRRM's true villains. It's his protagonists that have been slaying each other up until now.

 

And, as long as we're talking about the Forsaken, one of the most effective among them has been... wait for it... Mesaana. You simply don't see her driving hand behind the events in question until the very end.

True, but she too falls prey to her own incompetence.